The September 23 Globe ran THREE features on the Sox/Yankee rivalry and its effect on Fenway crowds...

Any comments?


Don Aucoin - Fenway fandom isn't always family-friendly; Sox-Yankees rivalry earns an R rating


"...As the Yankees arrive in Boston tomorrow for a three-game series, there will be a lot of lofty talk about one of the most storied rivalries in sports. But the dark side to that rivalry will also be on display, as ugly sentiments are given voice in the Fenway stands and on the streets -- increasingly, in the form of T-shirts whose messages have grown more and more explicit. For many dismayed parents, the shirts deliver an R-rated ending to what they envisioned as a G-rated day at the ballpark.

"It's disgusting. It's just unnecessary," said Dave Manzo, 50, who has been a Sox season ticketholder since 1979. "If you're walking with a 6- or 7-year-old, how do you explain it to your kid?" ..."



Don Aucoin - The look: Fenway frankness; Fashionable Red Sox fans can play fair when showing their anti-Yankee sentiment

" ...As the New York Yankees arrive in town tomorrow for a three-game series with the Red Sox, street vendors are preparing to do a booming business in a line of sports attire that seeks to tap into nearly a century of frustration. On the streets around Fenway Park, pushcarts are teeming with hats, T-shirts, and sweatshirts bearing anti-Yankees slogans. While many take a venomous approach that makes their slogans unprintable, others simply seek to express the rueful spirit of a city that has not seen a World Series victory since 1918, such as: "Any team can have a bad century." ..."



Adrian Walker - Bandbox vulgarity

" ...And what about the alleged family-friendly atmosphere we're always told Fenway possesses? Parents I know cringe when this topic comes up. Taking your child to his or her first game is, as the saying goes, priceless. Teaching your children to chant something vulgar, or explaining why they shouldn't, is distinctly low-rent by comparison. ..."

I'm torn... some of those t-shirts are clearly over the top, but still... I really like some of them. The "Take your 26 rings and shove them..." is awesome! Love it! But there has to be a way to prevent kids entering the park from seeing them.

The vulgar shirts are stupid.
Like I've said before, vulgar outbursts are OK.
But wearing vulgarity makes you look like a low-life.

That said, I'm sick of hearing about "family this" and "child that".
If I yell "Jeter, you suck!" and a yuppie parent gives me a dirty look or even dares to complain...

4B - Are you serious? You are an intelligent guy, do really think it to be acceptable behavior to scream "Yankees SUCK!" aroud little kids?? I happen to think the very chant makes the chanter seem somewhere south of intelligent but that's just me.

Tell you what...you better hope I'm not the Yuppie parent who gives you a dirty look because you can't act like a mature human being in front of my kids....

They're stupid

So would chanting "Yankees Stink" be any better? Is it the term "suck" that's most offensive to you? If so, why? Is it because you understand the term "suck" to be referencing a sexual act? My guess is that most people use the term to comment on poor play or a general dislike of the team... "Yankees are not very good!" and "I dislike the Yankees" just don't cut it as chants.

I believe the chant should then be changed to "Yankees are a team which we place in very low regard."



Like anything, if the people who engage in such behavior were to take the slightest bit of responsibility (like, for example, noticing the 4 year old girl in front of them) before engaging in such behavior, a better time could be had by all.

It's one thing to turn to your buddy and make comments about what you think A-Rod and Jeter do after the games, it's another thing to scream it at the top of your lungs while the St. Anthony's Girls Choir is sitting behind you on their field trip.

EDIT: Oops, left out a word there...

Bring the kids, bring the earmuffs.

Vulgar jeers (profanities or not) are a tradition as old as the Red Sox.
Probably as old as baseball itself.

A baseball game isn't Chuck E. Cheese's or the Lion King.

GoNM, if you're that yuppie parent, I have 3 words for you.
Bring...it...on.

You'd do what? As a parent, I'm wondering.

- Sometimes I get really "clumsy" with beer.

- I could be subtle and for the rest of the game yell jeers that barely duck the threshhold of profanity. Think security will throw me out for telling a Yankee with a 0-2 count that he has no balls?

- I could load up on peanuts and unleash the worst smelling legume farts known to man.

- I could loudly tell whoever I'm sitting with that there's no Santa Claus.

Lots of options.
But no, I wouldn't initiate any violence if that's what you were thinking.

I was more offended by having to piss in a trough for all those years. I grew up hearing 'bad words' at school, in my neighborhood, on TV, in movies, and, sometimes, around my parents. At some point, parents will have to explain some 'bad words' to their kids.

As for those shirts, haven't they been banned in Fenway anyway? What's the big deal? I don't know why we act like kids aren't exposed to these things and pretend that they don't see them. My parents explained a lot of these things to me at an early age, so the mystery was taken out of it. Perhaps other parents should follow suit and not act like their child is going to go through life without hearing these things.

I don't like those shirts, so I don't wear them. I do know people that dig them and if that's their thing, that's fine. Who are we to tell people what they should and shouldn't wear, because their kids might see a naughty word?

The whole 'Yankees Suck!' thing, while being incredibly lame and overdone, isn't a sexually related type of thing. To many, the word 'suck' is like saying something is bad. When I get a bad beat in poker, I'll say, 'That sucks.' That doesn't mean, 'That beat is a blowjob.' I see nothing terrible about saying 'suck' in this context. Once again, parents should know to tell their kids what it means, but tell them that they don't want them using it.

And, for what it's worth, the whole 'sucks' thing started in NEW YORK! How many times do I have to say that? They started all those t-shirts, chants, etc. They're known for being rude and vulgar fans.

On the other hand...

I do agree with mascho, that vulgar comments shouldn't be voiced for everyone in your section to hear, it's more of a funny thing you should mention to your friends. When I go to games with my friends, we get creatie with our comments, without having to resort to being vulgar. I've actually had parents, with children, come up to me and tell me that they thought we were hilarious and they liked having young guys like us in their section. You can get on the other team without being an obnoxious jerk or making crude comments.

I'd love to hear the kinds of things that the original Royal Rooters shouted.

Are Sox fans so stupid that they must sink to profane chants? Clever heckling is cool.

Stupid chants are, well, STUPID. As are the chanters.

Personally, after hearing DK Murphys' version of Tessie, I wish singing that at games would catch on...That'd be incredible and very unique.

And I'm sorry, but I still find the "Posada is a little b*tch" t shirts amusing...low brow or not. I'd never wear one to the game, but they're amusing.

And not to go on a rant, but I did a post awhile back about alcohol at Fenway...people who can't control themselves are the reason Fenway isn't as "friendly" as we'd all like it to be. People need to take responsibility for themselves, and the Sox need to deny service to intoxicated folks...From what I've seen around the park, it doesn't happen now.

Is there anything more that needs to be said to paint a picture as to what kind of person we are dealing with here?

No, nothing more needed, as long as your tin-foil helmet is strapped on.

I hear you on that one. I mentioned this a while back, but I think it'd be cool to get this going. It'd be the closest thing we'd have to a soccer chant. I always thought it was cool to hear the crowds chanting during soccer matches and be embarassed that we, as Sox fans, can only be creative enough to come up with 'Yankees Suck!'

Next year, Rooters outing, we need to do this when the opposing team is batting.

I'm just curious. Is there such a thing as acceptable public bahvior anymore? I do explain these things to my kids TLB but I will DECIDE when to do so - I'm not going to allow some loud, foul mouthed punk who can't hold his beer to decide when my kids are subjected to it.

You can do or say anything you wish but when you are in a public place at least have the basic human decency to behave in a somewhat civilized manner. Intelligent people can manage to find way to be humorous without being profane. It seems, based on what youve written you are one of those who can do that.

That's not too much to ask is it?

Sure, don't bother to address anything in particular, GoNM.
You can always be trusted for a good slander when you're on the spot.

You're the "kind of person" who ought to live in the 1950's.
Funny thing is, if you told a fan back then to shut up you'd have your ass handed to you.

You ought to rename yourself the Holier-Than-Thou Ghost of Ned Martin.

Best Shirt I have seen....

I'm sure you are an expert on public behavior in the 50's 4B.

I didn't slander you. There is no need to do so.

I will simply let your words speak for themselves.

Public behavior at a baseball game

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The prosecution rests.

Yeah, whatever.

Nice comeback

I'm curious 4B, would you feel free to act as you've described if you were with a date?

GoNM is spot on, and 4th base, you sound like a newly-liberated-from-mama 19 or 20 year old, unwilling to think that a civilized society requires adhering to certain societal mores.

WHY is not a baseball game "Chuck E. Cheese's or the Lion King"?

Arent we always saying about athletes who complain that they are "being paid big money to play a kid's game"? If parents don't bring their children to the park to take in the ambience of a ballgame, or if that ballgame ambience is unpleasant, where will the next generation of ball fans come from?

Look, idiots chant stupid chants. Threatening a parent because they dont want you to be an idiot in front of their children is sub-troglodytic.

You have a right to be an asshole. But if your right to be an asshole infringes on my right to have a peaceful afternoon, especially on private property, your right to be an asshole will be removed.

To argue this point is ridiculous. But not unexpected.

Where did they come from before the stands were sanitized?
Who were these awful parents who brought their kids to games back then?

Bringing a kid to a game and expecting everyone around you to conform to your idea of propriety is idiotic and obnoxious. I hope the threat of peanut farts and Santa deconstruction keeps those parents away from the game.

Sure, it's all about your right to a "peaceful afternoon"...
Go to the library, then.

I'm curious 4B, would you feel free to act as you've described if you were with a date?

Are you avoiding the question?

My date would be laughing along or joining in.

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I'm just curious. Is there such a thing as acceptable public bahvior anymore? I do explain these things to my kids TLB but I will DECIDE when to do so - I'm not going to allow some loud, foul mouthed punk who can't hold his beer to decide when my kids are subjected to it.

You can do or say anything you wish but when you are in a public place at least have the basic human decency to behave in a somewhat civilized manner. Intelligent people can manage to find way to be humorous without being profane. It seems, based on what youve written you are one of those who can do that.

That's not too much to ask is it?
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I don't know why this is directed at me. I don't wear those shirts, I don't like them, and I don't take part in these chants. However, it is not my place to tell other people how they should act. I certainly can't tell them what to wear. And just because someone is wearing those shirts, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're loud, foul-mouthed punks that can't hold their beers. It also doesn't mean that they're starting vulgar chants.

In my personal Fenway-going experiences, I've seen and heard more older men, guys that probably have kids, scream obscenities at the players, umpires, and other fans. I find most of the 'slogan shirt wearing' people at Fenway to be pretty harmless. Lots of people go to the game, get lit up beforehand, have more beers at the game, and let the beer do the talking for them. Not all of the forementioned people is wearing a 'Jeter Sucks ARod' shirt.

I think it's unfair to place that tag on young people, just because some of us buy those shirts. I've actually had people, men that are old enough to be my father, on more than one occasion threaten me because I thought their relentless use of profanity was unecessary and I asked nicely to give it a rest. I even had one guy, who was in his late 30's, threaten to hit my ex and then began insulting her after she asked him to quit his act. None of these guys were wearing bootleg t-shirts. I've asked the same thing of drunken college kids wearing these shirts and they usually have no problem with toning it down a bit. It does, in fact, work both ways here.

And no, it's not too much to ask. If it's really bothering the enjoyment of the game for you, don't hesitate to find the nearing police officer or Fenway employee; they'll be more than happy to shut that person up for you or boot them from the park. I've done this on occasion and it takes care of the problem without you having to personally say something. Knowing that the officers and staff at Fenway are up to task when it comes to these situations, I can accept some of the annoying fan behavior that comes

Why, oh why, am I not surprised.

Next time you feel like taunting a Yankee fan, refrain from the tired & worn "Yankees Suck!" chant; rather, I propose "Methinks, good sir, that you support a squad of ill repute!". It's far more menacing.

Seriously, the vulgar shirts NEED to go. They are not funny. They are not clever. They give the best sports fans in the USA (I would say the world, if not for soccer fans) a very large black eye.

I like your signature Howzie.
You should read it again.

would HE really?

He would because...

- wait a second -

Why I oughtta!

Love Below, I'm curious what kind of things you (or anyone else) have specifically heard.

What's the threshhold for you?
Is it certain profanities, the repetition, or both?

Even though the shirts ARE redudant, crass, and crude; some of them are damned funny, and it just represents the frustration because we are on the wrong end of the series.

Now of course you have to be conscious of kids around, and hell I have never had to urge to yell an f-bomb while at a game (although sometimes I do let out a "Good Sh*t" when someone moves a runner from second to third).

But if someone wants to playfully say, "Jeter Sucks" or wear an "Jeter sucks A-Rod" t-shirt, I have no problem with it, and nor will my kid (when I have one), because the main problem I think with today's society is that we lose accountability for preparing our kids for what happens in the real world.

Instead of blaming and casting judgement on the stupid poopyheads who say and do these kind of things, maybe we as a fan base, if you're REALLY that worried, should just have a little sitdown with our kids (all it takes is 5 MINUTES!) and tell them that the behavior is wrong, and that they should never do it, but that it's damned funny to laugh at. Hell, you won't know what being stupid is until you've witnessed it.

"Yankees Suck" is a redundant chant, but it's fun to say when the Sox get a big lead on the MFY. "Suck" is only considered a swear for those who think that life is like the boardgame, "CandyLand". It's in the dictionary; and you're kid better know it because if you get bit by a vemonous rattlesnake, you're screwed.

People swear. Get caught up in the moment. They're DRUNK. It happens. Worried about your kid picking up the bad language? Do what my mother did everytime she heard me use it - she gave me a Ric Flair "Momma slap" across the chest to suck the air out of my stained, vulgar Bobby Slayton wanna-be lungs.

I just don't like it when people shelter others TOO much from society. My parents approach was great about it; they warned me before that swears will be said at the game, that stuff will be heard that I can't understand, and shouldn't repeat in certain places (school, in front of elders) and that I'd figure it out later. Plus, how can my father tell me something is BAD when he LAUGHS when he hears it?

I just don't like it when people try to cast judgement on others, and some folks around in this area can at time be VERY guilty of that.

I grew up in a tough neighborhood - so tough that our parents always knew where we were (mostly because some of my friends where on the news).

The guy from Newton's comment bugged me:



I would detail some fo the stuff that I have hurled my way in the Bronx, but this is mostly a family forum. But one time I was there, while in line waiting for beer and talking to a friendly Yankee fan over the Giants' chances in the NFC, we watched a supposed "family friendly" Yankee Stadium employee get into a fight with another over a spilling a janitor's bucket, and proceeded to go crazy and drop the f-bomb 123 times in 7 minutes (yes, I counted), a Guinness World record.

Is the ratio of stuff that you hear a little bit more rauchier and frequent at Fenway? Yes, but only because the Yankee fans are on the winning side of it. If you're a Pats fan, go to a Jets game in the Meadowlands.....you'll see the reverse.

SO when someone from Newton or the suburbs tries to explain to me, or cast down judgement upon others, that a simple little word use or crude phrase is "disgusting, unnecessary, or disturbing"; I laugh because I came from a place where I found my little league coach lying in the street from being shot in the head when I was 7, or the fact when I grew up in early-mid 80's Mission Hill, they were crack dealers on the corner selling rocks like they were scalpers selling standing room tickets, and dropping the word "m**********r" more frequently than Peyton Manning calls aubibles at the line of scrimmage.

Plus, I'm a big defender of Free Speech. If you want to wear an offensive shirt, power to you, man!

As Bernie Mac says, "It's just words"........ and personally, when I become a parent, I would be more worried that my kid would pick up behavior from the potential VIOLENCE that he sees at the ballpark, not the words that he hears.

Plus, I'll have my "Ric Flair" backhand ready if he does.

The picture that I want to post is too big. Sorry Fellas

When I first started going to games in the late 70's and early 80's the bleachers were a scary place. Cordoned off from the rest of the park the timid didn't survive out there. Melees were common, as were chants of "Tastes great.....Less Filling" transforming into "F#ck you.....Eat $hit" (with half the crowd yelling at the other half) and "Box seats suck" (predecessor to "Yankees suck" BTW). I witnessed a guy get pummeled because he spilled a beer on somebody else, with no repercussions, and countless other acts of savagery. This is how I experienced Fenway and became a Sox fan.

Well I'm grown now (notice I didn't say "adult") and I can't say any of that effected me or my development. What it did teach me is to stay the hell out of the way of trouble lest I get my head smashed. Fenway has come a loooong way and none of the above behavior is tolerated by security. Profanity is like pornography, you know it when you see or, in this case, hear it. You can't have rabbit ears at these games as in the course of 13,000-odd people talking some bad words are going to be heard. People should police themselves and for the most part I believe they do, for those who don't others have said it all, either ask them nicely to tone it down or take your concern to security.

*edit* spelling

I miss that.

I miss the joints people would smoke, too.

BTW, what a great post by RoxburyRedSox.
Only 12 posts, but at least 4 or 5 of them have been A+.

Because others act in a boorish way or because you think you have the right to does not give you the right to subject others or their children to it. The stupid T-shirts and chants are the rallying cry of the seriously brain addled.

Absolutely brilliant point.

Carry on.

Absolutely.
Hall of Fame.

Well played, 4B.
Touche'.

Buying a ticket doesn't give you the right to control how everyone behaves. If security determines that someone's truly disrupting the experience of many around him, then by all means he should be kicked out. But not because some parent is offended by the word "suck".

Denigrating the intelligence of people who chant Yankees Suck and wear vulgar t-shirts is the hallmark of the seriously uptight and self-righteous.

What intelligence? They are as vulgar as their T-shirts and don't deserve any respect from the civilized.

So let me get this straight.

Guy wears a suit and tie to a game. Doesn't chant Yankees suck. But rips off every vulgar racial, sexual, ethnic slur he can think of. No problem there.

I wear a Yankees Suck shirt and partake in the chant. That's all I do. I'm the modern day equivalent of a caveman not deserving of respect from the "civilized."

Come on SD. I understand your level of dissatisfaction with those who wear "vulgar" shirts or partake in the "YS" chant, but to go that far afield is a bit much if you ask me.

so you are arguing that its ok to behave like that in a private place in front of kids
that goes right along with your posts that its ok to do as you said a cpl of hundred thousand dollars worth of damge to ther peoples private property if the RS sweep this weekend
very sad

People still smoke weed at the game sometimes (or it might be coming from the Jamaica Way outside the ballpark). There have been times this year where I've gone to Fenway and smelled Mary Jane.

It's usually done from a small bowl or roach, and is usually imminating from the upper grandstand on the right field sides because it's really the only "dark corner" left at the ball park.

That that *I* would ever do that, of course

But for those concerned about the Yankee game this weekend, BPD will be out in full force. Boston Police over the years has had increased details according to my dad, due to the fact that a)the Sox pony up a lil' money for their overtime and since 9/11, every single sporting event is deemed a "Level 3 target" by the FBI.