The Yankees have declined to pick up an option on Jon Lieber. This could be the first step in "The Empire Strikes Back."

Perhaps, but I've been reading the NY papers of late where it has been suggested that the Yanks would be interested in bringing him back at a cheaper price. Which is odd, because he should be solid in 2005, now that he has a full year under his belt off the injury. $8m doesn't seem like that much of a hit to me.

But then again, my last name is Remmerswaal, not Cashman, so what the hell do I know?

Lieber has alot of potential just look at how well he did game 2.. 8 million from the yankees is a joke who are they kidding?

Well, the good news is that there may be a pitcher on the market now that would like to show the Yankees up. I can understand if he is upset. He busted his ass to come back from a major surgery to become one of only the few bright spots that the Yankees had to take the mound. Maybe George is saving $ for Beltran ??

I think that the Yanks want him back at a lower price. He seemed to want to stay there, and doesn't seem to be the type of guy who would be insulted by a move like this...unlike some other pitchers out there......

I think this is a bad move unless they bring him back for less. Having said that, he has nothing to be upset about. They took a shot on him when other theams would not, (or probably could not afford to). He got like 2 million to rehab for a year. Pitching well in Oct for the Yankees is something that does not show up in your career stats and they may be making a big mistake. I mean WTF, like you all said, what's 8 million to them? Penny wise and dollar stupid.

I would offer him two years for twelve or thirteen million. He did better this season than Lowe did, ex-post season.

I think he is worth the chance, and six or seven million for a pitcher with an ERA of four these days isn't as extravagent as the past.

Also, it would give a jab at Steinny that we may be the new predator. LOL

Does anyone else think it is a collosally stupid move by the Yankees to consider throwing megabucks at the likes of Pedro and Tek, and then nickle-and-dime the only half-decent starting pitcher they have besides Mussina? $8 million is chump change for Steinbrenner.

This is great for Sox fans - just let George chase all the big names and avoid his team's real needs. Heck, Pedro/Tek is really not even that big an improvement over Lieber/Posada. If the Yankees fail to land Beltran, they may well enter 2005 with only a moderately-upgraded bullpen and an offense that is another year older.

JD

yeah...this is a weird move...since when does Georgie try to save a few mill by declining an option on a player to re-sign them on the cheap?

unless he's planning on making a huge run in the FA pool

I think George's rumored approach to a bunch of guys is off-base. He has already dropped Lieber, who by all accounts is a good guy and a damned effective pitcher for them this year, esp. second-half. He wants to stay, and you invested a year rehabbing him, so throw him 2 years, $13M, and keep him as your No. 4 starter.

With Kevin Brown, who is supposedly out of town and whose salary they are definitely going to have to pick up most of in any trade, why not bring him back? One year for a lot of money, most of which you'll be paying anyhow. He's a No. 1 if he gets his act together.

And the most egregious mistake, Javier Vazquez. OK, as Sox fans we're delighted he didn't pan out in the bright lights of the Bronx. But this guy is still a stud. He's GOT to be able to pull out of his rut to at least be a solid under-4.00 era guy. You just signed him to a long-term contract. And now you're going to ship Posada and him to the D'Backs for Randy Johnson, who may -- MAY -- have 2 years left in his arm?

Sorry. I don't like any of these moves. I don't care if Pavano signs with them, these are mistakes. It smacks of desperation, which is all well and good with me as a Sox fan. But beneath the veneer of my dislike for the Yankees, you gotta respect the '96-'01 teams because they had gritty, over-performing players who were allowed to flourish under a good manager.

-MALC

I agree MALC, The Yankees used to hang their hat on the fact that they were both rich and smart. Sure, they would spend more than any other team, but they spent it on the right people. This is no longer the case. Giambi and Contreras, Both fawned over and eventually signed by Georgie. Both huge busts, Giambi could redeem himself if he starts eating "Fast food" again and Contreras who although inconsistent, had good stuff and could have done a decent job in the bullpen down the stretch. So, in an act of desperation, because you couldn't get Randy Johnson because your farm system is so garbage, You go and trade for Esteban Loaiza. Loaiza!?! Then Loaiza did exactly what he did for Chicago.....sucked.

They trade away young talent for the likes of Jeff Weaver, traded Brandon claussen for Aaron Boone (aside from that one big hit did not have a good year) traded away Willy Mo Pena for Drew Henson, Henson now playing for the cowboys. Traded away Weaver, prospects and cash for Kevin Brown, who then proceeded to do his best Jeff weaver inpersonation. Raul Mondesi, traded to the D-backs w/ cash for Dave Dellucci, Bret Prinz and John Prowl. to be fair a few teams made the mistake in signing him.

Then Finally the non-signings, the people the let leave, like David wells who thrives in Yankee stadium, not to mention they needed a lefty starter. speaking of lefties, I won't mention Pettite who injured his elbow, but at the time was mistake. which also made Roger rethink his retirement and join the Astros. I also breathed a sigh of relief when they went after Sheffield instead of Vladimir Guerrero, Sure sheff is talented, but he's on the back 9 of his career and a head case. I'm also curious how they will handle the Lieber thing. With all of their money they do not pick up the option on one of their most consistent pitchers down the stretch.

The Yankees were more respected and better as a team when they had role players and not hired guns. When they had Paul O'Neill, Scott Brosius , David Cone and Tino Martinez I hated and feared them.......now I just hate them.

BBT

Not to mention that Mussina will be making $19m this coming year. Yes, $19 million dollars for one season. He makes the same the year after, since Georgie backended his deal so badly. Some of you thought Pedro was overpaid at $17.5m? Wait til this year and next in the Bronx. Horrible financial planning.

Giambi was really the first act of baseball gluttony in the current run. They changed their karma with that one. Clemens was a good signing because he was a proven pitcher who had done it in the big markets and was pitching better than he had in years. And he addressed a need. But with Giambi, you already had Tino, plus a developing Nick Johnson. And George's ego went out and signed Giambi, creating a major problem.



Loaiza, remember, put up a great year two years ago. For what they were getting out of Contreras, it was a win/win for both teams. But it really appears as if Loaiza's days in NY are over, creating another pitching opening.



Yes, but the elbow injury, remember, occurred while Pettitte was up at bat. So if he's in the AL still, it never happens. Or maybe it takes longer to happen. It was more the way Pettitte was treated on the way out the door that was bad for Yankees karma. After 10 years of clutch pitching and bleeding Yankee blue, he was dissed and dismissed without remorse or negotiation. I remember hearing an interview on WFAN with Cashman after that, and you could tell he was severely opposed to letting Pettitte go, although he spewed the party line, as usual.

Anyhoo, I'm not really tearing up over all this. The dissolution of the most recent Yankee glory years cannot happen fast enough for me.

-MALC

It will be interesting to see what the Yankees do in this offseason. The talk largely surrounds players like Beltran, but as everyone knows, they really need pitching. If they don't bring back Lieber, and can't get rid of Brown, they have the oldest staff in the major leagues. And if Vazquez doesn't straighten out his problems next year, there could be big trouble in the Bronx. No one can predict what largesse George will bestow on the various free agents available, but here's my prediction for some moves the Yanks will make:

1. I think they will find a way to pry Randy Johnson away from Arizona. I don't know what they have to trade to get him, but with an entire offseason to make it happen, I think Cashman will find a way.
2. I think they will re-sign Lieber to a 2 year contract in the range of $12 million. They didn't want to pay him $8 for one, but I think they do want him back.
3. They are going to go after a dependable and durable left handed reliever. The Yankee bullpen wore down as the season progressed, largely due to age and overwork. Torre relentlessly used Quantrill, Gordon and Rivera. Make no mistake, the challenge the Red Sox gave the Yanks down the stretch enured to their benefit even though the Sox didn't catch them. Because Torre could not give his relievers any rest in September. A fresher Gordon and Rivera and we might not have witnessed the comeback we did.
4. I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees pass on Beltran. They simply have other more important needs. Signing Beltran forces Giambi out of the DH spot to first base to make room at DH for Bernie. Besides being an absolute butcher defensively at first even when healthy, no one knows if Giambi can handle the additional stress of playing full time in the field in 2005.
5. The Yankees will make a full court press on at least one of our free agents. I don't know which one, but George wants to extract a measure of revenge, and he doesn't want to wait until next year to do it.

Let's see how I do with my predictions.

The Best sign of the Yankees regressing will be if Lieber doesn't do the classic thing where he willingly accepts the cut in pay and just runs back to the Yankees. If he goes off and signs somewhere else after this, it might be a sign of that old "Loyalty" the Yankees always rely on starting to wear thin.

is any1 intrested in the El Duque Free agency story as well?

my guess is that george's revenge will be to every1's surprise would be to make a fast attempt to sweep off V-tec from the Red Sox ....Taking not only their leader but also stabbing the Red Sox loyalty..though my prediction is V-tec will be the bigger man and decline the yankees offer and george will be yet screwed again.

The interesting thing about the "Yankees loyalty" is that a lot of it was built on having the proverbial chance to win a title. Well, unless you're one of those great top-tier free-agent studs, why wouldn't you come to the Red Sox, where the atmosphere is a lot more fun, less-restrictive and the pay is probably about the same? The Sox will be in the hunt for a title most years.

Just a thought.

I agree, MALC. Why wouldn't a free agent want to come to Boston and play in front of a full house every day? Now, on the subject of Yankee loyalty, I think that the Yankee faithful can call it "loyalty," but it's easy to be loyal when the Yanks have made by far the highest offer for your services. Let's see....Andy Pettitte left....so did Wells....so did Clemens....Stanton....Tino....

This is exactly what I think will happen. The Yankees took a chance on him when many other teams didn't and payed him good money to rehab. He seemed to enjoy himself last year and I think this is simply a move to cut costs as 8 mil a year is a bit high for him.

I do agree mostly with you guys on the other moves the Yankees made last year. I felt it all started to go down hill when the Yankees didn't push hard for Andy Pettitte. The guy was the backbone of your pitching staff for many years and he deserved more then that (even though they did raise the offer Houston did, but that's besides the point). Yes he did get hurt in Houston, but who knows what would have happened in NY. I just felt he wasn't respected by them going after Javy 1st and not calling him for 2 weeks after the post season or someting like that.

I didn't agree with the Kevin Brown signing at all. Basically I felt it was too risky given his injury prone and his salary. I think the move was mostly to get rid of Weaver who turned out to be a bust in NY and he was a big name pitcher who George seemed to be in love with for whatever reason. I knew he was going to get hurt a few times this year. And now the Yankees will just trade him away and eat the rest of his contract, even though that won't bother them at all (which you gotta love George for).

I think Beltran would be a good get, but I just have a funny feeling if he would work out in NY. The Yankees need more players like Paul O'Neal, Jimmy Letrtiz type guys. The Yankees also need to get younger. Grow their farm system again. Get more home grown Yankees. The money will bail them out and make them competitive, but I'm not sure how successful it will be to win them a championship.

Lieber is the only thing that kept the MFY in the race as we rolled through the AL West. If we lose Petey and D-Lowe, is there any reason we shouldn't give this some thought failing Radke, Pavano, etc.? Bottom-line is that MALC is right: dynasties are made on gritty, overperforming guys (like Lieber, even if he does look like a Star Wars creature)...

Also, I have it on good authority that Lieber is a top-notch dude, and good friends with Bellhorn from their Chicago days. How's that for an interesting dynamic considering Bellhorn's 3-run dinger in Game 6? Crazy game, this baseball.

Theo & Co. have to be considering throwing out an offer for Lieber, if for no other reason that to drive up his price. Seems like he'd be a bargain at $6 million a year.

JD

So let me get this straight. Jon Lieber is one of the only consistent starters for the Yankees last year, performs terrifically in the ALCS, and makes very little money. They "reward" him by not picking up his option and trying to run at him for less money? And he's supposed to be loyal to this?

If I'm Jon Lieber, I look around my clubhouse, see a bunch of under-performing overpaids and think, "I'm the one the Yankees pick to get frugal on? How does that work?"

That's just my impression. I don't think its a sure thing eh gets resigned.

I wasn't saying he would re-sign. I was simply pointing out the fact that these people that get shafted by the Yankees always seem to just take it and go back for more. It will be interesting to see if he takes off to greener pastures or takes the pay cut.

No, ED, I was totally agreeing with you, ultimately. My attempts at "incredulous" as to that line of thinking got away with me- he very well may sign... and that's just so strange.

Mike Stanton didn't go back for more....Cashman gave his agent a take-it-or-leave it offer and gave him 15 minutes to sign it and he signed with the Mets. The Yanks signed Hammond. Pettitte didn't go back for more. The Yanks disrespected him and he went home for less money. They tried to insert a weight clause in Wells' contract, and he took off for home in San Diego, and had a darn good year. Roger didn't want to play in NY for another year, and will end up winning the Cy Young Award in the NL. The "loyalty" the Yanks have built is in direct relation to the fact that they gave their players more money than anyone else would. And the ones they didn't give above market salaries to left. It will be interesting to see what Lieber does. I think he'd do great in Fenway as he's a ground ball pitcher, and he really pitched very well during the second half of the year.

One of the great side effects of winning it all is watching the also-rans (i.e. MFY) play catch up.

Whatcha gonna do, Georgie?

From today's Daily News:



JD

I think the Sox should make him an offer. He'd be solid in the back of the rotation. The worst result is New York has to sign him to a higher salary. With the Randy Johnson deal dead, this puts pressure on Cashman to sign a high profile pitcher (read: Pedro/Pavano, both of which we want also). Going after their one quality starter could help us in the offseason chess match.

If we don't get Pavano,

Schill
Pede
Arroyo
Lieber
Wake

still look like a better rotation to me than last year's with Lowe.

Reports are that the Yanks are close to re-signing Lieber to a 3 year, $21 million deal. (Thank you Mr. Minaya and K. Benson!)

And both moves have turned out to be correct. The Yanks got back Stanton to get rid of a slob and Pettitte re-aggravated his elbow injury the first week of the season. And do you think the Yanks were wrong to ask a man who had two major back injuries because he is a fat slob to have a weight clause in it? This is where the Yanks can't win. If the Yanks did show "loyalty" by offering stupid contracts to these guys then the Yanks get criticized for the payroll, if they don't offer dumb contracts then they are disloyal. Can't have it both ways.