Well Dirtdogs broke the story that has Vlad winning the MVP



So my question is what made the voters put Sheffield in 2nd, was the voting really that split? I think statwise I would have voted for Ortiz with Vlad in 2nd but thats just me.

EDIT:Boston.com confirms The Anaheim Angels right fielder received 21 of 28 first-place votes and 354 points in balloting by the Baseball Writers' Association of America.

New York Yankees right fielder Gary Sheffield finished second with five first-place votes and 254 points. Boston players split the remaining two first-place votes, with left fielder Manny Ramirez finishing third with 238 points and designated hitter David Ortiz winding up fourth with 174 points.

So there you have it I don't have a clue how Ortiz only got 174 votes though? someone enlighten me

I was shocked when i saw this, how is it possible? Are they on drugs or something?

I can accept and even agree with the fact that Guerrero won AL MVP, but what I cannot figure out is how in the hell did Sheffield finish second with 5 first place votes and Manny and Papi only got one apiece. How many votes does being a Yankee automatically get you anyways?

Some sportswriters apparently think "value" on the ballfield includes playing defense, something that neither Manny nor Ortiz do with any regularity.

Remember that the voting occurs before the postseason when Senor Octubre and Manny were respective MVPs of the playoff series'.
Anyone see any final tabulations for 1st thru 10th place votes?

Just offhand, I would say because Ortiz is a DH automatically disquailfies him with a lot of voters. Manny is tougher to call, I would say it is his perceived lack of defense and his lacidasical way of playing the game. I don't suspect many care for his personal appearance either.

I think Manny should of won, but if I were looking for the why he losts? I would start with the above.

Earlier in the year, I was of the mind that Manny was the MVP- but he finished the second half with a bit of a slump and came back to the pack.

I really think Vlad was the most valuable player this year, and whether Manny or Sheffield was #2, it was at least close, and for that reason you can't get that up in arms about it. The thing that still irks me is the notion that Sheffield deserved it because he "carried" a 200 mil dollar team.

Find me team with ARod and Matsui, and I'll show you a team that NEVER needs carrying. I think ARod may have been as valuable (probably more) as Ortiz, considering his defense and adjusting for park. Sheffield deserved it for other reasons.

Oh well. I don't really care- MR/ DO got their MVPs in already.

Oh well, at least the important bling went to Boston...World Series Rings that is

Either way Tim Mccarver and Michael Kay are sulking somewhere because Jeter didn't win the MVP today...robbed again, damn

Oh well, at least he got his gold glove.

That's bull, but I'll take ALCS and WS MVP's over regular season MVP any day. Ortiz shouldn't have been in it because he's a DH. He took votes from Manny and vice versa. No big deal, Vlad earned it, and after that it's no big thing. We got the rings.

Too bad Sheffield didn't win.

Then, we'd have an all BALCO MVP season!!!

What a joke! Sheffield had no business finishing second--maybe Manny and Big Papi cancelled each other out.

Vlad is deserving, but Manny should have been the clear choice (IMHO).

2nd or 3rd I don't think it really matters. Vlad deserved the award and the writers got that right.

Vlad deserved the award? I partially agree - But it's cool, we all know who the true MVP of the season was - and that's Ortiz. No question about it. As for the reg. season - it was Manny.

Vlad did deserve it on the basis of his great stats and drive to the playoffs - but Ortiz dominated in every series. Hands down. (Even though only reg. season was counted)

You can say that Manny/Ortiz took votes away from each other, but if you're casting votes and that influences your decision then that's bulls**t IMHO. I am furious for some reason.

GARY F**KING SHEFFIELD? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

HONEST TO GOD BULL****.

Anyone that says Sheff deserves 2nd place is on crack. It should've been Manny or Ortiz.

But it's cool, cause we got the rings!!
Everything else just fades away!

this is from the mlb site. the column on the far right is total votes.
apparantly Anahiem's figgins is 2x as valuable as Tek
and A-Chop is more valuable than Damon and 8X Tek.

Guerrero, ANA 21 5 1 1 - - - - - - 354
Sheffield, NYY 5 8 9 4 2 - - - - - 254
Ramirez, BOS 1 14 9 2 2 - - - - - 238
Ortiz, BOS 1 - 5 9 2 5 5 - - - 174
Tejada, BAL - 1 - 6 2 7 2 4 2 1 123
Santana, MIN - - 2 1 7 5 4 2 2 1 117
Suziki, SEA - - 1 - 6 2 6 4 1 6 98
Young, TEX - - 1 4 2 2 4 4 3 - 92
Rivera, NYY - - - - 2 3 3 3 4 5 59
Rodriguez, DET - - - 1 1 1 - 2 4 2 36
Nathan, MIN - - - - 1 1 - - - 1 12
Jeter, NYY - - - - 1 - - 1 1 - 11
Kotsay, OAK - - - - - 1 - - 1 1 8
Rodriguez, NYY - - - - - - - 2 1 - 8
Damon, BOS - - - - - - - 1 2 - 7
Konerko, CWS - - - - - - - - 1 5 7
Blalock, TEX - - - - - 1 - - - - 5
Mora, BAL - - - - - - - 8 9 - 5
Teixeira, TEX - - - - - - - 1 - 2 5
Hunter, MIN - - - - - - 1 - - - 4
Martinez, CLE - - - - - - 1 - - - 4
Durazo, OAK - - - - - - - 1 - - 3
Cordero, TEX - - - - - - - - 1 - 2
Ford, MIN - - - - - - - - 1 - 2
Guillen, DET - - - - - - - - 1 - 2
Matsui, NYY - - - - - - - - 1 - 2
Figgins, ANA - - - - - - - - - 2 2
Chavez, OAK - - - - - - - - - 1 1
Varitek, BOS - - - - - - - - - 1 1

Manny and Papi cancelled each other out. Whenever you have a situation like this, the smart money shouldn't go on a guy who has a legit candidate on his team- it always goes like this. That's the reason that Sheffroid finished ahead- it doesn't have anything to do with his defense or anything like that. Sheffield's defense was pretty damn bad this year.

David Ortiz is a DH
The players that finished in front of him play offense and defense and that would make them more valuable to their teams

Hey, if you add DO and Manny's votes together, they'd beat Vlad.

Of course, that's totally irrelevant because many voters probably voted for Ortiz and Manny 2nd-3rd or 3rd-4th, and of course you can't vote for the same player twice.

Still.

Now, Jeter beating out Damon- THAT's ridiculous.

Vlad deserved it as he did carry the Angels nearly single handedly at times during the regular season and into the playoffs. Manny and Ortiz had phenomenal numbers, but either one of them were not the sole reason for the team's success. Everyone pulled their weight and without Pedro, Schilling, Foulke, and others we would have had a very difficult time making the playoffs, even with Manny and Papi.

As for Sheff, since Manny owned him in every offensive category except runs (117 to 108), triples (1 to 0), walks (92-82), and stolen bases (5 of 11 to 2 for 6), I am at a loss.

To summarize --

Gary Balco Sheffield:



Manny Ramirez:



The only way that Sheffield was clearly superior to Manny was in his defense (5 errors to 7, 11 assists to 4). But thats a sorry ass excuse to vote him higher.

So in conclusion, Sheffield finished second and Manny third because the gross majority of the writers naturally favor the Yankees.

mcclusky...i beg to differ on manny's lack of defensive ability. of course you can't measure what he does defensively with stats like the outfield assist. manny deserved it. period.

If that was true, then Scott Rolen should have gotten some more MVP votes.

Unless the defensive play is outstanding, which Sheffield's wasn't, it usually isn't taken into account in MVP balloting. And in any case, Manny's VORP was 70 to Sheffield's 63.8.

to mangle the words of tom heinson, "I hate Jeter!"

Clearly, Manny would've had a better showing if Ortiz didn't take some of his votes. It would've been nice to finish second over Shef, but in the grand scheme, who cares?

My beef: Am I reading the chart wrong or did Jeter get a first-place vote? They really need to strip Michael Kay of his vote.

any one who gave jeter any votes because of July 1st is kidding themselves

But between the two of them they only got two 1st place votes to Sheffield's 5.

I have a real issue with Travis Hafner not getting one single solitary vote. Not a third place, not a fifth place, not a tenth place. NOTHING. Didn't show up. Should he have won? No. Should he have been mentioned? Yea, he really should have.

edit- and I still can't believe Chone ****ing Figgins got a vote. Is Mrs. Figgins a sportswriter in Anaheim?

Yeah, I don't know which is more amazing, or more depressing.

I was just being facetious, sort of. I didn't say I agreed with the results. And by the way, you're right - defensive play usually isn't taken into account unless it's outstanding, and the same held true here - Manny's defense being outstandingly poor.

Manny was still probably more valuable than Sheffield, but if people want to know what the voters were thinking, that's what it was.

I think you're reading it wrong, he didn't get anything over a 5th place vote, nor did he deserve one.

My gripe is still how Ortiz got a first place vote over Guerrero, Manny, or Sheffield? Come on the guy is a DH.... he plays 4 at bats per games and runs the bases like an offensive lineman...and what did he play.... 20 to 30 games at first? That means he was on the bench for more than 3/4 of the season, that's not an MVP IMHO! Guerrero, Sheffield, and Manny were CLEARLY more valuable to their teams overall than Ortiz.

Yes, David Ortiz is a great hitter but he didn't lead the league in ANY major offensive catergories (not to mention his 133 K's which ranked 8th in the AL).... IMHO the only way a DH should be voted the leagues MVP is to win a triple crown and even that would be a close vote if someone put up similar numbers and played the field. I don't even see how he was the Sox MVP, IMHO that would be Manny.

Interesting note on some of the other guys outside the top 3... only Guerrero, Sheffield, and Manny were listed on ALL of the ballots.. ie some players were on some ballots.... yet omitted from others.... shouldn't these ballots be standardized?

As for Manny vs Shef I'll just cut and paste my reasoning from another post:

>>Manny had better numbers all across the offensive board with a few exceptions. Sheffield is a better outfielder in a more demanding position but I don't think that's worth 4 votes. However (and this is why I think Shef was #2), I do believe Sheffield meant more to the Yankees season record than Manny did for the Sox (Someone have win shares stats handy?). Without Sheffield the Yanks probably don't win the division, without Manny the Sox are still the WC favorite. In the end does it really matter who finished where if they didn't win? No one is gonna even remember the runner up in 3 weeks!<<

Yeah, that's a shame. Probably linked to the strange balloting system which lists different players on ballots for different writers.... anyone know why this is?

A compelling argument, if only it were relevant here.

In fact, Sheffield had not one, but two teammates -- A-Rod and Matsui -- who finished with more than 30 HR, more than 100 RBI, and more than 100 runs scored. Both were better defensively than Sheffield this year. A-Rod's BA was just 4 points lower (.286 to Sheff's .290), while Matsui hit a superior .298. A-Rod, in addition to having nearly identical numbers to Sheffield's in most of the traditional statistical categories, stole 28 bases (5th in the league).

Now, these are just your basic baseball card stats. Sheffield did lead the Yankees in OPS, maybe he led in win shares (though I suspect Matsui was the team leader in that department), maybe there are other numbers that would suggest that Sheffield was the clear-cut Yankees MVP. But to casual observer, he had two teammates with seasons nearly equal to his. So if Manny and Ortiz - who were both statistically superior to any Yankee - canceled each other out, why would Sheffied/A-Rod/Matsui not cancel each other out?

What's most mystifying is that Sheffield's mouth did not hurt him. For him to admit to steroid use is one thing. In fact, I might even respect that. Except that he insists that none of the responsibility for this is his own, and that Barry Bonds was entirely to blame. How cowardly is that? How little integrity does that display? No, maybe his utter lack of worth as a human being is not relevant to his worth to his team. But given that the voters are human, I would think it only natural that they be turned off by Sheffield's handling of the situation.

And, as a voter, I would have resented Sheffield's very clear implication that 1. He deserved, unequivocally, to be MVP and 2. If A-Rod had his numbers, A-Rod would be MVP, but because Sheffield's not a media darling he would not win.

Now, apart from the irony of A-Rod having the same numbers as Sheffield this year and not winning the MVP, if I were voting I would have been turned off by this arrogance. Again, maybe this arrogance should not be relevant, but with how thin-skinned many in the media tend to be it is remarkable that this was not more off-putting to more voters. I mean, if Sheffield were, in fact, the clear choice and he expressed fear that he would not win because of his personality, that's one thing. But from a raw numbers standpoint, he just wasn't even close, and it was an insult to the intelligence of MVP voters to suggest that he was.

Manny had the most outstanding all-around offensive season in the AL. Even if he tailed off at the end, I don't think this is particularly debatable. And Vlad Guererro was clearly the most valuable player to his team of any player who made the postseason because of his dominant stretch run (combined with excellent numbers all season long). Sheffield was neither of these things. Sheffield wasn't even second best at these things. Sheffield wasn't even, in my opinion, MVP of the Yankees. I can only think that the Yankees ran a hell of a PR campaign on his behalf for him to finish as high as 2nd.

But hey, if he wants to be second in the MVP race, and have his team end the year as only 2nd best in the AL, I can deal with that.

I have no problem with Vlad winning, and not a real argument against Sheffield or Manny (they can flip flop quite easily).

However, I would love to see some transparency in this voting process (if it doesn't already exist). I would love to see who the voters are, and who's voting for who.

mcclusky your opinion is your own but aside from the cairo home run catch, if i play back all the games i watched this year, i bet i could find enough BRILLIANT manny defensive plays that would sway you

You couldn't sway me if you got Jesus Christ and Bill James both to come to my door and swear to Manny's prowess on stacks of Bibles and Baseball Abstracts.

Manny is a great hitter and a great athlete, but by major league standards, a bad outfielder. I am cognizant that he makes some very good plays from time to time. That does not change the fact that he makes many bad ones, and that his overall approach is fundamentally unsound.

Sounds like a shortstop I watch everyday.... oh wait he's a gold glover now!


Notation: I changed one word in your quote... "many" to "some" in paranthesis

A man of myth and a man of words and baseball knowledge has nothing to do with it...watch the plays...all of them. The little things he does are overlooked and his fundamentals are sound. I won't say the guy is Roberto Clemente but he's not a "bad outfielder". All great defensive players make bad plays. Manny is not great so he makes more bad plays than the great ones...but his defense is not bad enough to hinge his losing the mvp on...eesh bad grammar there. He gets to balls quickly and more importantly gets balls to the infield as fast as any mlb outfielder. His great plays are from time to time and his very good plays are consistent and frequent. Don't junk the car because the tail light is busted.

Someone who makes more bad plays than great plays is not a great outfielder, by definition.


I didn't say it was. But the subtitle to the thread is, "why did Sheffield finish second." I'm only trying to answer that question.


I laughed out loud - you're absolutely right. But maybe that has something to do with him playing shallower than any other outfielder in professional baseball? Because of that big green wall, ya know which one?


Like I said, he's a good athlete, so he makes plenty of good plays. He does OK out there. But he's not a good "outfielder." I've played softball with guys who exhibit better outfield instincts than Manny. And my thinking is that some of the sportswriters probably have as well, which is part of the reason, fair or not, why Ramirez didn't get the hardware.

edit - clarity

Sheffield finished ahead of Ramirez for the same reason Beltre finished ahead of Pujols. Ramirez and Ortiz canceled each other out

In this playoff age, where play extends a full month beyond the season,
the voting for MVP, Cy Young, etc is clearly outdated.
The playoffs should be made to count in the voting.
Were that the case this year, Schilling would have won the Cy hands down.
Santana did nothing the first two months of the season,
and was not a factor in the playoffs.
MVP is tougher, because so many Sox players were MVPs in the playoffs.
I guess I would give it to Ortiz over Manny--because he had countless big hits,
and played a flawless 1B when he had to in St Louis--including that great
instrinctive throw to 3B to get Suppan.
Damon, of course, was right there, too. A career year for him, and he came
up big in the playoffs when it counted.

So, there you have it.
Because the voting for these awards preceded the playoffs,
they were more meaningless than usual this year--thanks to the heroics
of the Red Sox.
Sox players deserved better.

And a word about Bonds.
I'm surprised the voting for him was so one-sided
considering the mounting evidence this guy has used steroids.
How can anyone believe those 75 HR seasons were legitimate
for Mac, Bonds and Sosa with what we know now?
And that's even discounting the lively ball.
And how about those inflated contract years by Giambi and Lopez,
followed by declines after signing huge contracts with other teams.
Their original teams knew better.
Anyone who noticed those big biceps on both players knew better, too.

Not touching the Bonds part at all.

I don't think playoffs should be included because for all intents and purposes you are taking away 'stat padding' opportunities from 3/4 of the league. Not to mention the guys who are ousted in the first round... ie Vlad and Santana.

Also, I beg to differ about Santana being 'not a factor' in the playoffs. 1-0 record, 0.75 era, 12 k's, 0 HR's, and 4 walks in 12 innings of work (7 in game 1, 5 in game 4 because Gardy had him on a leash)... that's pretty good numbers for a guy who wasn't a factor.

Take this for what it's worth because I have been there... annoyed that my player was snubbed in a vote even after a solid postseason including a championship. I'll grant you it sucks but it's the way it always has been and should be for parity and fairness sake.

Postseason heroics (and trust me I've seen a few displays myself) are great but they shouldn't count in the vote IMHO!

Just off the top of my head I can think of two Yankees who... if postseasons counted .....would have won an award.... well... one of them would have since they finished 2 and 3 in the vote and both had great postseasons! The 1996 Cy Young vote comes right to mind... if the playoffs counted either Andy Pettite or Mariano Rivera gets that award, not Pat Hentegan.

Sorry..talking about all balls...not just ones at Fenway...you know the ones in the gaps...you've heard of gaps haven't you? I'm guessing your softball colleagues can't hit a major league fastball though right? Hence, my comment. Look, if we were face to face, I'd talk slow so you could understand. YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. Sheffield finished 2nd because his defensive additive shows up in some stat somewhere...per your claim. However, Manny's defense, while maybe not as good, isn't bad enough to make the difference between him winning and losing the award. He was clearly the most important offensive player in the AL. Unless he's Mike Greenwell or Vince Coleman or Rickey Henderson, he gets the award. All I'm saying is watch the man play...don't judge him defensively before the play unfolds. Your prejudice is deafening.

Umm, Manny is, was and always will be better. If you want to use one play to justify something.... Manny threw out Edmonds (?) at home. Better than the Ortiz play.

It was Larry Walker, not Edmonds. Walker was the one who got on base multiple times in the series! Walker apparently thought that Manny was going to get Pujols at 2B instead, since it would have been an easier play.