Newsday 12/30

According to Newsday, it's a done deal.

Again, great move by the Daddy Worebucks for the 05 team but an absoultely horrible move for beyond that.

I think it sucks on so many levels for the MFYs that I almost, repeat almost feel sorry for them.

Vasquez and Halsey are going to be around for a while, and I have a feeling that Vasquez is going to look pretty good out in the desert.

Vasquez won't be playing in the desert....rumor has it he's going to baltimore, detroit or texas...

...or Boston...

Doesn't this belong in the RJ thread? Let the Declinasty continue!

That thread was closed when the trade went through.

Someone started a new thread, and there were several responses here, so I locked the other one so that we wouldn't have two parallel conversations going on.


Here's the AP report as of 5:19 pm:

Ronald Blum, AP - Diamondbacks and Yankees close to a deal for Johnson


Anni

I know I should, but I just don't care. It reeks of desperation and has absolutely no consideration towards the future of that franchise.

He's getting shots in his knee on a daily basis. While he's dominating, he's not what I'd call durable -- especially in the long term outlook.

They are giving up on a guy who had just one bad half-season (Vasquez) and handing over the remainder of the decent prospects in their farm system and then of course, money.

After this, they have nothing to trade. If something is needed at the trade deadline, they're f*cked. The cupboards are bare. All they have left is money and money only goes so far in trades.

The fun thing is all of their big contracts are back-ended. Their payroll seems scary-high now? Wait a couple years when they are still paying Giambi and the hefty contracts enter their inflated years.

Self linking in a post, SD? I know you are better than that.

Yeah I am. I am. I am so sorry FF!

But you don't have to be a casual fan bitch to appreciate the soap opera reference.

Man, that was heartfelt!

Thanks for calling me a bitch.

two things:
1) I hope Vazquez makes them pay. How great would it be if he was traded to Balt and owned them. He did say they would regret it if they traded him. How about backing it up and throwing a no hitter against them?

2)They do have something to trade-some of their position players. Remember how they were thinking about trading Posada to help get RJ? Well that is where they are. Guess what their bullpen aint great either.....

I'm just running through the fielding players...

1) who do they have at 1b this year? I haven't paid attention.
2) Womack they won't trade.
SS) Jeter they won't trade
3) ARod they won't (and possibly can't trade for $$ reasons)
C) They are packaging Navarro to AZ, and the idea of John Flaherty as a FT catcher is gag worthy, even to a Red Sox fan.
LF) Matsui... mildly tradeable... but then who is their left fielder?
CF) GIMPY KNEES.
RF) Sheff can hit, but he's juicy and getting up there in age. Plus, big contract.

Giambi on the bench, can't play and even if he could in a diminished role, his contract is idiotic and isnt tradeable.

No one in their pen is expendable.

Said you don't have to be a casual fan bitch. Obviously, none of the GLoRSN are bitches of any type except as expressed in the rants of other Rooters such as PTH with the friendly connotation of "bitches" if you will.

Mods- feel free to move this post if it's not in the right place.

People argue that that the CFY are arguably good for baseball because they give other teams someone to hate, and spread around money through luxury taxes paid and revenue sharing. While I agree with this, many people don't seem to understand that the teams that need the handouts would probably draw more fans if their teams had a chance to be competitive. The Yanks' spending and revenue sharing helps those teams, but more fans in the seats night in and night out would help those teams a helluva lot more. I can't say for sure since I don't live in a small market or follow a small market team, but I think more fans would come out if the teams they follow had a chance to be in the hunt and that it wasn't going to be the same teams in the playoffs every year.

Lets look at the teams that have made the playoffs in the last five years, what number they were in total payroll, and who's in what type of market.

1999
CFY- #1 payroll at $88M, big market
Red Sox- #5 payroll at $71M, big market
Indians- #4 payroll at $73M, medium market
Texas- #2 payroll at $81M, medium market
Atlanta- #3 payroll at $75M, big market
Mets- #6 payroll at $71M, big market
Astros- #11 payroll at $55M, medium market
DBacks- #9 payroll at $70M, medium to big market

Top six teams make the playoffs, no small market teams

2000
CFY- #1 payroll at $92M, big market
White Sox- #26 payroll at $31M, big market
Oakland- #25 payroll at $32M, small market
Mariners -#15 payroll at $59M, big market
Atlanta- #4 at 82M, big market
Mets- #6 at $79M, big market
St. Louis- #11 at $63M, medium market
San Fran- #17 at $53M, medium to big market

This is a year in which you could argue competitive balance, but only one true small market team made the playoffs.

2001
CFY- #1 payroll at $112M, big market
Cleveland- $5 at $92M, medium market
Seattle- #11 at $74M, big market
Oakland- #29 at $33M, small market
Atlanta- #7 at $91M, big market
St. Louis #9 at $78M, big market
Houston- #17 at $60M, medium market
Arizona-#8 at $85M, medium to big market

Some competitive balance, but 5 of the top 10 made the playoffs, plus Seattle at #11. Oakland also skews this since they were there again with a low payroll.

2002
CFY- #1 at $126M, big market
Minnesota- #27 at $40M, small market
Oakland- #28 at $40M, small market
Anaheim- #15 at $61M, big market
Atlanta- #7 at $93M, big market
St. Louis- #13 at $74M, medium market
Arizona- #4 at $102M, medium to big market
San Fran-#10 at $78M, medium to big market


Appearance of balance becoming a bit skewed since the same two small market teams make the playoffs. Every other team is in the top half for total salary, and 4 of the 8 are in the top 10.

2003
CFY- #1 at $152M, big market
Red Sox- #6 at $99M, big market
Minnesota- #18 at $55M, small market
Oakland- #23 at $50M, small market
Atlanta- #3 at #106M, big market
Cubs -#11 at $79M, big market
Marlins-#25 at $48M, small market
San Fran- #9 at $82M, medium market

The Marlins make the playoffs and win the WS, which is a rare exception. Oakland and Minnesota are in again, but 4 of the 8 teams are top 10 in payroll again, with the Cubs at #11.

2004
CFY- #1 at $182M, big market
Red Sox- #2 at $125M, big market
Minnesota- #19 at $53M, small market
Anaheim- #3 at $115M, big market
Atlanta- #8 at $88M, big market
St. Louis- #11 at $75M, medium market
Houston- #12 at $74M, medium market
Dodgers- #7 at $89M, big market

These numbers are from opening day, and some clubs did add payroll as the season went on. Only one small market team makes the playoffs, 5 of 8 are in the top 10, #11 and #12 also make it.

So, in five years, eight out of a possible 40 playoff teams were from small markets, and big market teams won the World Series four of five times. Minnesota and Oakland account for seven of eight small market appearances. The #1 salary team has been in the World Series 3 of 5 years.

When fans see this, I think they start to lose interest if they realize that they can't compete, and thus don't come to the park and spend money. The small market teams will never be able to compete regularly, and probably alienate fans more by having to lose good players to free agency or in salary dumps. Competitive balance would help to bring many of those fans back to the park IMO.

This ridiculous spending by the CFY is unfair to the rest of baseball. The Sox have to react to it to compete and have done so. The Orioles have to spend to compete and are raising payroll, but teams like Tampa Bay and Toronto don't draw because their teams can't compete, so they're forced to get the helping hand from baseball via luxury tax and revenue sharing. It would make sense that the CFY and other big market teams' ownership would not want to fork over this money, so they can make more. If that's the case, they need to institute a system where the small and medium market teams can make a lot of money on their own, and the best way to do that is to allow them to put a competitive product on the field. Baseball needs a salary cap or something to that effect, and badly. The luxury tax is obviously not working when only three teams have to pay it, and the CFY more or less ignore it.

And with that said, I hate to see players get hurt, but I hope that the CFY all somehow mysteriously lose their ability to play and they get saddled with a whole flock of albatrosses.

Fine and dandy, let's see how good the trade looks when the MFY are paying an almost 44 year old RJ $16M in 2007 along with...
CI - $22M
Slappy - $16M*
Giambi - $21.5M

I'm just so happy for the Yankees, I could crap on myself. I don't need RJ going to the
Yankees to Hate them! Always Hated the Yankees, Always will!!


Go Red Sox!!!

Why do I just not care or do not even think that RJ is going to be all that with the MFY?

I am so looking forward to the collapse (hopefully) of the $kanks starters. Five question marks, IMO. I'm still laughing about $21m for Jaret F. Wright.

In the end, the RJ deal is going to look very D-U-M-B.

Schilling is coming off surgery, Wells is older then RJ, Miller is coming off an injury, Clement might not be able to handle the pressure, and Wake is inconsistent. We have just as many wild cards.

Fortunately, we have 7 potential starters. Not to mention, I bet Theo pulls off something huge before the deadline.

I agree, though, that we should not be too worried about RJ being a Yankee. We have a great team, and are in position to do a lot of damage. For all we know, our lineup could eat up RJ and spit him right back in Big Stein's face.

RJ becoming a Yankee doesnt bug me as much as i thought it would. Every pithcer the yankees have signed in the last 2 years have done shit. What the sox get in pitching seems to turn to gold. The yankees go for the biggest name out there.

The Red Sox sign a bunch of pitchers that have a bright side, and mix in a few veterans.

Like you said Pokey, we have 7 potential starters. In the grind of the regular season, id take that over RJ at this age anyday.

I'm not worried about RJ because of reasons other than our situtation compared to the b*tches ( ). Specifically, he's 41, has had back/knee problems of a major degree in the past 3 years, and now has to readjust to the AL (DH, no more pitcher in the 9-hole, new hitters, etc). He's not the dominating pitcher he was even back in 2001 when they won the WS in 'zona.

I had hoped the devils' b*tches would have to give up a little more to get him.....but I'm not intimidated at all that he's in the Bronx.

Go Sox.

IIRC, didn't he pitch a PERFECT GAME last year? RJ is a great pitcher and just because he's gonna become a MFY doesn't change that. Personally, I'm looking forward to the Curt-Rj battles to come. Bring it on RJ.

On top of all that, the man had a mullet. How can you possibly take anyone seriously when they were infamous for a mullet?

All kidding aside, Schill vs. Johnson is going to make some great baseball. Battles for the ages. These battles will probably be more epic then Clemens vs Pedro. GO SOX.

Johnson's a stud and i'm afraid he'll pretty much neutralize Ortiz, Damon, Nixon and Bellhorn.

But RJ against Manny---now THAT'S a matchup I can't wait to see.

Hohler in the Globe today said: The Big Unit would join Mike Mussina, Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano, and Jaret Wright in one of the most formidable rotations in baseball.

I don't necessarily agree. Their lineup is probably good enough to go through the regular season by steam rollering over the lower tier clubs, but against top teams it doesn't seem all that formidable.

Johnson is the best of the best if healthy, but Mussina has become way to inconsistent, Brown is an injury-prone shell of himself, and Pavano has had one good season, as has Wright who is something of a meathead besides.
I see one hall of famer and at least 4 question marks.

Buster Olney was ready to confer the WS title to the yankees last night on ESPN, but I'd have the engravers hold off on etching the WS trophy until at least the end of October.

They will, because Clemens didn't bring it against Pedro at the time.

There's also a chance Schilling vs Johnson never happens because both are injured... more likely Johnson.

So the Yankers have Johnson. Something tells me this blows up in their face.

I do agree that our rotation has question marks as well; I just think there's more upside at lower cost to ours, and certainly we are deeper.

Edit: And trading away Vazquez is probably stupid, along with Navarro, but the MFY don't have to rely on prospects since they can just buy players... kind of like us.

Hey Sox Sweep Again...

Just one correction. Clemens did indeed bring it against Pedro.
Remember that gem at Yankee Stadium where Nixon took Clemens deep?

That was, probably, the best pitched baseball game I've ever seen.

Until Nixon got that HR late in the game, Clemens was just awesome.

Total agreement on this. I remember being at that game with my cousin, for his birthday, he's a MFY fan. Crap birthday for him.

Trot, the Clemens killer.

A rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Pavano, Brown, Wright? is a solid rotation. I would say that the rotation is better than ours right now (Schill - Clement - Wells - Arroyo -Miller/Wake). I think we have a lot of 'what if's' and that is the problem.

Schill's ankle is a concern to me. What if Clement can't go from the NL to the AL successfully? What if Miller doesn't get healthy? What if Wells isn't Wells? What if the knuckler just doesn't knuckle? Ok so basically I'm saying that although when I look at the rotation I'm pleased with it, I still think that we need a lot of things to go right for it to be great.

Don't forget that Schill is behind schedule so who knows when he will start for us, so I don't see a Schill-Johnson matchup in the early part of the season. It could be Johnson vs any of the rest of our guys. In all honesty don't you take the guy who is a future hall of famer and just threw a perfect game last year over any of our guys? Last year I felt the Yanks were hurt by their pitching and this absolutely helps them out. For 2005 this will be great for them. Beyond 2005 is another question because we all have no idea how much longer he would last beyond that.

Regardless of all that though I actually don't care that he is a Yankee. I'm not scared and I still don't think any of the Sox should be either. We have a solid lineup so let him try and go after our guys! Plus, it will just be even sweeter when we beat them again.

RJ vs Sox

Great post BSG.

The Yankees rotation has a lot of question marks (as does the Sox) but it has the potential to be great. Hell if Johnson, Mussina, and Brown just match their career averages that is an amazing rotation regardless of what Pavano and Wright bring to the table. If Wright can repeat what he did last year and Pavano has a good transition to the AL the Yankees will have the best rotation in MLB next year.

I'm not that bothered by the move, simply because I'm still basking in the afterglow of the WS victory. The fact that they gave up on Vazquez so quickly is good and hopefully Johnson will hit the end of the road sooner rather than later, but anyone who thinks that this deal didn't make the Yankees much better for 2005 is living in a dream world.

This is an example when leaning on statistics to make an argument more persuasive fails. I would hardly call any of those career numbers against Johnson to be conclusive of anything except most of these guys have not had too many at bats against Johnson, save for Payton. They have alot of "what ifs" in their rotation with Wright and Pavano squarely in the crosshairs. Brown was horrible and still might not be in the rotation or on the team period.

Brown had a better season than Mussina last year. Mussina made 5 more starts, but if Brown doesn't punch the wall he'd have pitched just about as much as Mussina. I don't think he's going to punch another wall next year. Wright is a huge question mark and no one knows if Pavano will adjust to the AL, but there is some serious potential there.

I agree but the Redsox have just as much potential and I think overall a better bullpen...I ve said from day one Pavano has 1 good season and gets a huge contract and everyone is convinced he is huge...he is an average pitcher b4 last season around 500 career .

Oh wow. The Yankees got RJ? I am just shaking in my boots

1) Randy Johnson (2.60) *
2) Kevin Brown (4.09) *
3) Mike Mussina (4.59)
4) Carl Pavano (3.00)
5) Jaret Wright (3.28) *

6) Tanyon Sturtze (5.47)

* indicated injury risk

Ohhh... do I take them, or do I take the Sox?

1) Curt Schilling (3.62)
2) David Wells (3.73)
3) Matt Clement (3.68)
4) Bronson Arroyo (4.03)
5) Wade Miller (3.35) *

6) Timmy Wakefield (4.87)
7) John Halama (4.70)

I'd take ours. Overall, it is much better. They may have two aces in Pavano and Randy, but they have 3 so/so pitchers in Wright, Mussina and Brown. Our worst starting pitcher is Bronson Arroyo who happens to be better than 2 of the Yankees "top" starters.

Umm, Schill is coming off surgery, and Wells has a history of back trouble. Before you get all excited, be sure to * them as well.

Ummm please take a look at our rotation. We have 5 question marks. Id rather have RJ than Clement or Miller ho so far have been our offseason additions.
Yes they gave up Vazquez for him and I agree he will pitch a lot longer than RJ
But you know what. we gave up Pedro and Lowe and got nothing but draft picks back for them. Sure Wrights a question mark. Not as big a question mark as Clement or Miller though

Jaret Wright has a better era than any of our starters. Im not saying hes better but come back to reality here on how good our staff is. Im also not sure you can say that Arroyo is better than any of their starters let. Come way way way back to reality on that one. The guy has basically had one full year in the ML

Pavano is an ace and Mussina is a "so/so"?? Explain that to me. And as Caspir said, we have plenty of injury risks ourselves. Do I think we can still beat then in a series? Yes. Who knows what will happen this season. Only time will tell. But are the Yankees the favorites? Hell yes, and it isnt even close.

Of the starters the Sox and Yankees will send out in 05, I would bet nearly anything that Jaret Wright will, in fact, be the worst. Our staff isn't as good as theirs if they get RJ, but it is a deep, great rotation.

Arroyo was a top twenty starter in the AL last year, Brown wasn't. With age and price considered, I'd take Arroyo over Pavano, Wright and Brown in the MFY rotation any day.



Matt Clement is a better pitcher any day of the week than Jaret Wright, and there's no qustion mark there outside normal FA health risks. Matt CLement is a better bet than Wright, no doubt.

I think Clement and Schilling will be jus' fine.

In addition, Wade Miller has potential ACE qualities.

Maybe he'll be injured all season (not.)

But we also have Bronson Arroyo, with his 91-93 MPH fastball, 4.03 ERA and his 7.20/9IP K rate.

And again, Johnson may BLOW UP IN THEIR FACES more than Curt might blow up in ours...

before giving the Yankees the trophy a couple of points:
Randy Johnson is no spring chicken and has had a history of back and knee problems.
Mussina has shown that his chinks in the armour are getting bigger
Pavano had his first above 500 season(and hasn't proved anything yet)
Brown...LOL you saw him pitch and usually spends 2 months a season on the DL(non wall punching)
Wright I find this one pretty funny..more so what they shelled out for him(key word is shelled)

so I wouldn't say they are that much better than us...but that why the games are played on the field.

Rosenthal has been pretty good lately, at least for Rosenthal,
But his latest is a stinker--just another pro-Yankee clunker.

His assessment of the latest mercenary dealings:

Yankees up, Red Sox down, Mets down.

Mets down--because they got a declining pitcher in Pedro--
from the Red Sox-- no less.

Red Sox down--because they unloaded a declining pitcher to the Mets,
upgraded at SS and most likely upgraded at SP.
Figure that.

If the Red Sox are down, Rosenthal must be standing on his head.

Yankees up--because that's what his boss told him to say.
After all, doesn't George own the media?
Besides, RJ is going to be invincible forever.

The real deal? Nobody will know until about 10 months from now.
Honest.

Does anyone else read The Brushback? I thought their recent Randy Johnson spoof was spot on.

Choice quote:

I used to respect him because of the D'backs beating the Yankees in the World Series, but now I'm genetically incapable of doing so.

I wasn't posting the stats to add anything to my argument or initial thoughts. I was just posting those stats because I didn't see them posted before. I wondered myself how any Sox players have done against RJ so I thought I would post it to share with everyone. I definitely know that they are small sample sizes, but at least it is a starting point to guess how one would do against RJ.

So both rotations will have a lot of question marks, I still think the Sox have a bit more though.

Paperwork has been submitted.

Big Unit Paperwork Goes to Selig

Looks to be pretty much done now.



Between this, and the Green deal, LA is stacking up on cash.

Wow, under 200 posts and I'm already in someone's sig line.

Thanks for the honor!

And... THE PHONE COMPANY killed Kennedy.

Now it's done ...

The Yankee fan in me even hates this trade. I don't know many NY fans here(in town), but most don't like it either. I just have a feeling he's going to get hurt, and I don't think that much money should be spent on a 42 year old man (but I don't think most players should have the salaries they have either) just my thoughts........

I have a gut feeling. Randy will hurt his back pitching soon. He is old and throws akwardly.

We will be in the Mix to win it all I feel it.