A SOSH poster named "TheYaz67" just posted this on SOSH:

Thanks for the info, Jack... God, if true, this would be absolutely unbelievable. I am trying not to get too excited....I'm trying...

Could it be that Borass is now working with us? Find that hard to believe. Guess we shall see....

Just posted that in the Hot Stove thread, JackLamabe. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. This is Theo's last shot to move Manny before 10/5 rights kick in. Sweep the leg, Theo. Get it done.

Hmmmm..... Sounds pretty interesting, but for some reason, I just think I like having Manny more. Call me crazy if you will, but I love the guy.

Now adding Beltran to a team with Manny is another story.

this has BS written all over it

No thanks. People sit here and bitch about Manny, yet signing Beltran for 7 year sis ok? Beltran can't carry Manny's jock at the plate, and Damon was better than Beltran everywhere but power last year. Pass.

EDIT-Adding Beltran and Manny, and just dumping Damon would be great. Not Beltran in place of Manyy though.

If this pans out, wow.... Moving Damon to LF where his arm is less of a liability would be an added bonus.

And knowing that the Yankees broke their piggy bank used all their pennies on Johnson makes this possibility even better. They will probably throw in once they hear we're going after Beltran, however.

I dunno, I think Manny is still a better bargain at his current 4/$80M than Beltran is at 7/$112M.

Not gonna happen. 7/112 huh?

I suppose you believe Boras when he says he has at least 6 teams with bids in over 100M for Beltran?

agreed. and isn't beltran commanding a no trade clause? and to move manny just because of the 10/5 rule is dumb IMO. knowing this to be the case what big FAs would want to sign here in the future?

Thanks for the info Jack. As has been said already, not getting too excited. To be honest, can never get too excited about this sort of thing until there's more concrete.

It's interesting to see the two sides here. The Boston rumors and then the NY rumors. Makes me not believe anything either one of them says.

The only thing that gives this any credence in my mind is the fervor with which Theo has attempted to get rid of Manny's contract. Perhaps it is a directive from above, but he has gone out of his way to try and peddly Manny. If he could, essentially, launder Manny through the Mets and get Beltran, I can see him pursuing it. And I think Minaya would prefer Manny anyhow, given that he's got a standout defensive centerfielder already and Manny's a Latin star who hails from the City.

if there is any truth to this rumor, i wonder if this would have anything to do with DO's recent statement about not wanting Manny to leave.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that we could have both Manny and Beltran. If you could get a team like the Mets to take all of Kim's contract for just one more year (for an awful prospect), trade both Minky and Millar, you dump in the range of 12 million. This Beltran deal would be about 16 million, leaving only an extra 4 million. Of course this leaves an even bigger log jamn in the outfield.

Just a thought here, but how about this.

CF-Damon
LF-Manny
RF-Belran (We could someone with speed out in right)
1b-Trot (Although he hasn't played there, it would decrease senarios for injuries)

We need mnice109 to come out of hiding on the ESPN board and give us the scoop on this. Whoever that is, they are connected. They drilled every Sox move this winter a day or two before it happened.

Keep Manny, stay away from Beltran and trade away our two 1B for 30/3 of Delgado...


edit: clarifying the numbers

Here's a thought: while they may not publicly declare it, perhaps the Sox want to move Manny because *they don't like him.* Yeah, he is overpaid; but Ortiz is underpaid, and in general the Sox budget is fairly reasonable.

Other data points:

1) Pedro, who disgraced the game with his antics against the Yankees in the 2003 ALCS, is no longer in town.

2) Lowe, who didn't even counter the Sox offer of 3/27 and was suspected of partying at the China Club in NYC the night before one of his Sep starts in NYC, wasn't invited to a Sox party in his hometown, was only offered arb so we'd get draft picks, and hasn't been offered as contract.

3) Nomar....

4) Cabrera, who threw an elbow at Renteria during the 2004 WS, is gone....

I know that there were extenuating circumstances in each case - Pedro's shoulder and 2004 era, Lowe's ERA over the past two years, Nomar hasn't been the same since his wrist injury and other health issues are popping up, and Renteria is a better overall player than Cabrera, but....

Perhaps, this management team wants players who represent the team a certain way on and off the field.

Maybe they don't feel good in their gut when a ball is hit to left....

Maybe they get agitated when Manny stares down a pitcher or walks towards the mound after being pitched inside. (And the book on him is to throw inside...)

I think the Sox would be happier with Manny if he worked on his fielding (maybe asked Yaz to tutor him), and handled himself with more grace on the field.

Just a thought.

From where I sit, I'd like to see Manny stay with the team for the duration of his contract. Not only is he a great hitter, but he also hits great pitchers. I've seen him drill a Rivera 95mph cuttter, located on the outside corner at the knees, into the right field bleachers at Fenway. The man can hit, and is a perfect fit for the 3 hole in our lineup. If only we could start 2 DHs.....

No knock on Beltran, who is an excellent player and may be a fine individual, but I really hope Manny stays and matures a little.

though this sounds like a valid rumor, but i question the source. the sox getting rid of manny sounds right because of the 10/5 rights

1)They offered Pedro 3/40 to stay here.
2)The Sox made a more than generous offer for Lowe. The fact is the guy refused it and it made manegement angry. Maybe it can also be best explained by his awful pitching.
3)Nomar, like Lowe, wouldn't accept 4/60 because of his ego and comparing himself to Tejada and his contract. Not to mention his defense was sub par and he was injured
4)I'm sure that elbow didn't even enter managements minds. It's the fact Edgar was a better player.

I was just thinking about this.

The reason this rumor has any chance of being seen as true is because of the Varitek negotiations and the fact that it is "top secret."

Well if this is true, how do someguys best friend on Yawkey Way find out about this and not Gammons/Olney/Kirjuan/etc.?

Just something about this rings false to me.

Ever consider the friend could be an underling in the Front Office? Faxes tend to get tossed back and forth between offices...

Place your bets everybody. I am placing the over/under at 65 on how many pages in this thread , this little rumor will create.

I know you're bored. The Hot-Stove has cooled off. Some of you are even snowed in. But, let's not overreact. Pretty soon I am going to see a Manny v. Carlos Thread. Jack heard something and was nice enough to share it with us. That's all.

Just as he was ordered to do by Lynn Jones, the 1st base coach. Cabrera was always the epitome of a team player, in my opinion.

or just someone that wants to have the site linked as a news site
just like the nomar to la fact ummmm rumor ummmm bs

I'm taking the under, just because this will be decided in the next 48 hours. I don't believe the rumor, but I could see that where Beltran ends up could start a chain reaction involving Manny, Delgado, Eyechart and Cabin Mirror.

Ok, I have Viocala with a $1000 under. Who else ?

All I need now is Caspir and SaneYankeeFan to get in a debate in this thread. This thing will rocket past 65 pages by 2:30 tomorrow morning.

No. Bad move for so many reasons.

Red Sox Outfield w/o Trade:
LF - Manny Ramirez (.308/.397/.613) [20 AAV] <32 years old>
CF - Johnny Damon (.304/.380/.477) [7.75 AAV] <31 years old>
RF - Trot Nixon (.315/.377/.510) [6.5 AAV] <30 years old>
totals - .309/.385/.534 for 34.25 million AAV

Red Sox Outfield w/ Trade:
LF - Johnny Damon (.304/.380/.477) [7.75 AAV] <31 years old>
CF - Carlos Beltran (.267/.367/.548) [16 AAV*] <28 years old>
RF - Trot Nixon (.315/.377/.510) [6.5 AAV] <30 years old>
totals - .295/.375/.512 for 30.25 million AAV

It does not make sense. Your average, on-base and slugging percentages all drop and you only "save" four million dollars. That is what you lose on the field.

Off the field you lose Manny Ramirez, someone who will never embarrass the Red Sox off the field and who is one of the leaders of this team. He is always there with David Ortiz to greet players back into the dugout, he keeps the whole place loose, and he has has fun playing the game! You can't say that about many other players.

Plus, whenever a rumor is prefaced with a statement like "My friend's friend heard this..." I have a hard time believing it.

Beltran to Sox and Manny to Mets?

Why are there all these Manny reports? What do the Red Sox gain by trading away Ramirez? Yes, he may have a big contract, but he was the World Series MVP, is, in my opinion the best right-handed hitter in the AL, and is a great one-two punch with Ortiz. Although his defense is questionable at best, Manny has proven everyone that he is not only a role model off the field, but a great player on the field - Beltran has had one great season, where is batting average wasn't even .270. Manny is a lock for .300, 40 and 110+ rbi's every year...

Theo, do the right thing and take him off the block, PLEASE.

Hey now. We tend to harp on those statements that prove to be incorrect while we totally forget the one's that come true.

I was ridiculed for sharing information that my father (Bostonborn49), received from Justin Veritek, (JV's little brother). He guaranteed that Jason would remain in Boston. Sometimes, people know what they are talking about.

Right. But in that case you heard it from your father, who got it first hand.

This rumor is straight from the kindergarten game telephone, where after three people it gets scewed.

Regardless, why is it so important that Theo trades away one of the best right handed hitters of all time, a HOF lock, and someone who is a triple crown and MVP contender each season.

No, please no, Beltran had a contract year season. Thats all. We are basing this all on Beltrans performance in the NL Playoffs

Please be smarter than this Theo

I agree with you 100 % by the way. Trading Manny would be a mistake. He is one of the game's best pure hitters. He is part of an elite few that can single handedly change a game.

Because the Sox owe manny $80m over the next 4 years. Manny becomes a 10/5 guy I believe next year, so that if they don't move him now, then he has a virtual no trade clause. He'd have to approve any trades, and the Sox figure that being that he was just WS MVP, that his value won't get any higher than it is now. Tey couldn't get anyone to take him last year and I guess they feel that they theoretically could move him now and want to so that they are not "stuck" with him for the next 4 years at $20m/.

The brass covets "payroll flexibility." I am not saying that I agree that we should move him, but that's the loose reasoning behind it.

Well, although his power numbers stood out this season, I don't know if it's fair to say it was just do to a contract season. In 2003 hit hit .307/28/100 for an awful KC team.

beltran instead od manny? bad move, it still takes pitching to win!

Loose reasoning is a good way to describe it. I hate the idea of trading Manny. Beltran's a very good player, Manny is a great player.

...don't dream it's over.

Furthermore, your comment makes no sense. We all know it takes pitching to win. However, none of the players being discussed here are pitchers, just position players.

And yes, I've been waiting for the opportune moment to quote you ever since your screen name got that goddamn Crowded House song stuck in my head.

Ramirez was seen working on his knuckler with Wake during B.P...

So basically, if true, it's a Manny for Beltran swap. Sorry, I'll take Manny every day over Beltran. Sure, he's younger and a 'little' cheaper, but, honestly, we are dumping a World Series MVP and shoe-in HOFer for Carlos Beltran? No way.

IMO Beltran is signed by someone tomorrow. After Saturday, Bora$ loses a dance partner in Houston and with that some leverage. Then again, I wouldn't put it past Minaya or the O's to still overpay.

Last spring, Manny went to Dwight Evans and aked him to help him with his fielding. I'm trying to find the article, but no luck so far. It was one of the articles that talked about his dramatic attitude change after almost being dealt to Texas.

Anyway, I can't see the Sox doing this. The 7 year contract makes no sense to me. These long term deals are something this regime is adamant about staying away from. And you also have to consider that parks that Beltran has played in, compared to Fenway. Until they moved the fences back in 2004, Kaufmann had been an extreme hitters' park. I don't think a lot of people realize this.

I don't understand how this rumor could be remotely true......


If we trade Manny we are going to have to pay a portion of his contract, at minimum I would think between $3-5 million dollars per season.


Now if we are paying Beltran $16-17 million per season, we are simply trading one bad contract for another one.


Paying anywhere fro $19-22 million per season for the next four seasons to have Beltran.


I just don't think it makes as much sense to be paying more money to get Beltran then it would cost to keep Manny.


Beltran is another power/speed guy, whos value would take a hit playing for the Sox as his stolen base abilities would be underutilized.

The defensive upgrade is very attractive, as is the ability to trade an aging manny for a Beltran entering his prime, but economically I don't think it makes any sense.

Keeping Manny and Adding Beltran makes even less sense as the team would have upwards of $55-60 million tied up per season in four players (Manny, Beltran, Renteria, Varitek).

...and since when has our owner said that Manny is too costly for this team? You'd have to think that he knows by now that Manny is a role model off the field and consistently an MVP canidate every year. If they keep Manny on the block, his interest in this team will greatly decrease, only hurting us. We don't need moves like this, IMO...whter it's loosing the payroll or not. John Henry can afford Manny, and unless we're drastically improving the team by dealing him (we wouldn't be), then I see no reason to even consider a trade for him.

With Caspir - doesn't fly with me at all. Unless we're keeping Manny and Damon - and at that rate their goes our payroll!

Rumors on BDD (Yes, BDD I know) concerning Delgado have started - I'm very interested about THAT, def. not about freaking' Beltran and his 112M.

The Sox tried very hard to get rid of Manny's contract. They were willing to put him on irrevocable waivers, letting any team grab him. They wanted to trade him for Arod. They thought paying Arod the remainder of his contract (with the reconstruction) was better than paying Manny for the next 4 years. I don't remember how much it would have been that they would have paid Arod but I do know he would have been under contract till 2010 (so that is 6 more seasons).

So when I think about it maybe this rumor is not too crazy. Maybe this organization likes Beltran at 7 years more than they do Manny. I won't be surprised considering how much they tried to get rid of him. I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't true either.

I consider Manny the better player. I still don't think he should have been WS MVP, but regardless he has put up some great numbers year after year. Beltran is a younger OF'er who is good, but not a great hitter like Manny. Either way I'll be happy. Well as long as the Yanks don't end up with Beltran then I'll be happier.

Put me down for the under (despite your efforts trying to run up the page count). Without any reporting from a legitimate media source (sorry, Dirt Dog doesn't count), this post will run out of steam quickly.



Payroll flexibility - Damon's deal expires after next season and it sure is easier to find value in a corner OF rather than a key position like CF. One would presume that we would get some decent prospects out of the Mets farm system as well.

Also, I don't think I've ever heard of Manny being referred to as a "leader of the team" in anything other than offensive statistics or boneheaded fielding plays. As for never embarrassing the Sox off the field, I recall an incident not so long ago involving the flu, missing a game, and a late night meeting at the bar of the Ritz Carlton with Enrique Wilson.



And since neither Manny or Beltran are pitchers, this post makes sense how? One could say that Beltran's defense would aid the pitching rather than gambling on some of Manny's exploits in the OF.


All in all, I think this is just another fun but false rumor during the cold hot stove season.

I will be totally pissed off if this goes down. Beltran is going to be overpaid no matter where he ends up, and to move Manny just to overpay Beltran is just plain retarded. Why didn't we just sign Vlad last year?????

I truly hope this is just internet bullshit.

Technically, this entire site is devoted to Internet bullshit.

I love Manny. I love Carlos. I love the Red Sox. Either way, I think we'll be ok.

(singing to himself" "Always look on the bright side of life!" (whistle along!))