Well, to answer the question, yes I think he is too egotistical. But I personally don't think that matters. I see little feasability if the Red Sox trade for A-Rod that they would keep Nomar. I wish it could happen, because they are both supurb players.

Also, regarding who would play SS in the case that somehow they'd find a way to keep both of them, I think that I would let the Gold Glover play short. BUt then again, that would make sense, so who knows.

Moving A-Rod anywhere but shortstop is ludicrous. I don't care if Nomar has played shortstop since Little League and it's his bestest most favoritist position in the whole wide world and he has to play it or there'll be a temper tantrum, or if he is willing to move or whatever. All that matters is that A-Rod is 5x the defensive shortstop that Nomar will ever be, it's a hard fact of life. Although with Nomar's arm it does make a bit more sense to move him to 3rd than it does to move him to 2nd. Also, as far as left field am I missing something or do we not still have Kapler on the roster?

Alan is right though, in the event that the A-Rod trade does go through I see very few options for the Red Sox keeping both shortstops, still acquiring a 5th starter, a closer, and a replacement bat for Nomar there just isn't enough money unless John Henry is talking about putting up Steinbrenner type numbers for next season.

Well I just heard on ESPNRADIO 920AM [Philly] That according to Gammons the AROD deal has to go down soon, ie before the winter meetings, or ANA will pursue Tejada thus meaning they will want no part of Nomar I guess...maybe we will get an announcement by next week??

I don't believe Texas would be willing to include Teixeira in any such deal. He's young, cheap, and a budding superstar. Otherwise, I see where you're going here.

GW

The Arod/Vlady thread has been merged into this one.

Jim D.

Gammons has Nomar to Anaheim for Adam Kennedy and pitching prospects. That would be excelent because we get our second baseman too.

Wait a minute ... Montreal gets Nick Johnson and two lesser players for one year of Vasquez, but the Sox only get Adam Kennedy and prospects for one year of Nomar??? What am I missing here?

JD

A-Rod for Ramirez? It's an all-or-nothing deal
By Bob Hohler, Globe Staff, 12/5/2003

The ink was barely dry on Terry Francona's contract yesterday before the Red Sox brass returned to a winter agenda packed with issues as potentially monumental as deciding the futures of Manny Ramirez and Pedro Martinez.

The Rangers remain open to trading MVP Alex Rodriguez to the Sox, and the Dallas Morning News reported yesterday that Texas would accept Ramirez on the condition Boston "ante up a significant portion" of the $95 million balance of Ramirez's contract over the next five years.

If the Sox acquired Rodriguez, they almost certainly would trade Nomar Garciaparra. But while team officials have not closed the door on the A-Rod talks, they made clear after Ramirez cleared irrevocable waivers last month that they would not subsidize him to play elsewhere.

"The Sox are not going to pay anyone to take his contract," a team source said. "Proving a point to him is one thing, but paying him to play somewhere else is just not going to happen."

Still, the possibility remains that Boston and Texas could somehow find common ground, just as the prospect exists that the Sox and Martinez could agree on a multiyear contract extension. Team executives, including general manager Theo Epstein, will meet with Martinez next week in the Dominican Republic in their first informal step since spring training toward negotiating an extension. Epstein also expects to meet with Martinez's agent, Fernando Cuza, at the winter meetings next week in New Orleans.

"I'm not going down there to sign Pedro Martinez," Epstein said of his trip to mark the opening of the team's new baseball academy in the Dominican. "Perhaps there will be a more substantive conversation in New Orleans."

Martinez, who will make $17.5 million next season (the most in the majors for a pitcher), has indicated he may accept less in the current market for an extension. The Sox could offer about $13 million or $14 million a year, though Epstein said striking a deal is likely to turn on whether both sides agree on where the market is for pitchers of Martinez's caliber.

"Sometimes it's easier said than done," Epstein said, "but we have tools to get there."

Even though Curt Schilling's deal (two years at $25.5 million plus a $13 million option for `07) pushed the Sox close to the luxury tax threshold, Epstein said the Sox hope to maintain enough payroll flexibility to accommodate their other needs. Notable among their short-term goals is acquiring Oakland's All-Star closer Keith Foulke, who is expected to choose from among the Sox, A's, Mets, and Cubs by next week.

Keeping up

While the Sox have pursued Foulke and considered their other needs, including a second baseman, bullpen depth, and bench players, the Yankees have waged a major response to last week's Schilling signing. New York has acquired starter Javier Vazquez as well as setup men Tom Gordon and Paul Quantrill as they close in on right fielder Gary Sheffield.

"We know where their payroll was last year and we know where it's going to be next year," Epstein said. "I didn't think they were going to just sit there and stand pat. I knew they were going to bring in some good ballplayers. I just assume they're going to have a fantastic ball club and be the team to beat every eyar. All we do is focus on our own ability to acquire talent and build a well-rounded club."

Acquiring Schilling was a major coup. "We feel pretty good about our starting rotation," Epstein said. "We still have some other needs to address, and we don't have quite as many resources as we wish to address them, but we like the position we're in. We're going to keep an open mind when we go to the winter meetings."

The market will change dramatically after Sunday's deadline for teams to offer their free agents salary arbitration. Teams that decline to offer arbitration cannot negotiate with their free agents until May 1. The deadline is expected to mark the end of second baseman Todd Walker's days with the Sox as the team declines to offer him arbitration.
© Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.

I don't think they can/will do it money wise. Plus, the whole idea behind the trade is to create some payroll flexibility, which you lose on a straight Manny/ARod swap. For the move to make sense, they need to lose Nomar's salary.

Is this a good trade idea?

Boston gets ARod, Francisco Rodriguez, Adam Kennedy and $3 million a year for 5 years from Anaheim, mnor leaguer Jenks.

Boston gives up Manny Ramirez, Garciaparra, Kevin Youkilis.

Texas gets Ramirez and $3 million a year for 5 years from Anaheim to pay for contract plus $5 million saved from ARod contract totaling an $8 million saving, John Lackey.

Texas gives up ARod and Teixeira..

Anaheim gets Garciaparra, Teixeira, Youkilis.

Anaheim gives up Francisco Rodrigues, Kennedy and $6 million for 5 years totaling $30 million, John Lackey, mnor leaguer Jenks.

Now what do you think?

Besides the fact it would never happen. There's no way Anaheim in that situation would give up 30 million dollars in ANY sort of deal. They're taking on Nomar under your scenario, who is going to command 15 million dolalrs a year anyways.

Wheres the Vlad part that the topic dictates. This thread definitely belongs in one of the other various threads where we're talking about A-Rod.

This would never ever happen......this should most likely not be a new thread.... maybe should be thrown in the arod thread or even hot stove.... I'm new here as well but I think new threads are supposed to be something concrete like "x was traded to y team"....as opposed to something made up.

The main reason everyone assumes an Arod-Manny trade would lead
to losing Nomar is the extra 5 million in salary. But if we lose Foulke
(looking more likely with A's offering 4 years) and make Williamson the
closer we could still keep both and have an offensive upgrade to go with
our starting pitching upgrade. I personally think A-rod would play a better
2B, but either way, Walker would be replaced. Millar to LF, Ortiz 1B, all we
would need is a quality bat DH(to essentially replace Walkers bat). Lots of
options there.

Arod is by far the better short stop so therefore it would be Nomar who would need to change positions. Butch Stearns of Fox 25 said that someone close to Nomar said Nomar will not be the one to change positions if we got Arod. In my opinion if we get Arod then Nomar is gone....I guess they could afford to keep the both of them for 2004 but after that Nomar would not stay with a team where he is not playing his position (ok obviously this is my opinion). This is why I feel if we get Arod Nomar will be traded somewhere to not only help save a little money as well as getting something in return for Nomar, as opposed to watching him walk when next season is over.

As a response to Loch Doun's photos, I came up with the A-RAAWD Manny Trade buddy icon... Yes im extreemly bored at work

Niiiiice!!! B)

yes

There's a decent chance A-Rod will have more homers in Fenway in 04 than Manny and Nomar combined in 03. Think about it.

Get this guy. Get him now.

Hmmm...Manny and Nomar combined for 36 homers at Fenway last year. You've got ARod pencilled in for 37+ at home? That would most likely put him over 60 for the year. Gimme some of that weed...

I wouldnt doubt AROD could hit 60HRs, but there is no way that he will single handedly drive in the 200+ RBI that Manny/Nomar will.

Thaman, you don't think A-Rod's capable of 60 HRs, playing in Fenway?

Whoa... check again.

Looks like this three-team trade is picking up momentum -- came across ESPNEWS.

IMHO, all the other talk about Kaz and Tejada is useless. Everything rests on getting Manny off the team and there is only one team even remotely contemplating it (as we saw when Manny was put up on waivers). A Texas-Boston trade for ARod and Manny is the only thing that makes sense for the Sox at shortstop. All our conversations rest on this because everyone knows (including management) that Manny would be better off playing somewhere else.

my view...

First off, I am pretty sure it will get done. Hart has agreed to the player swap and now they are just sorting out the $$$.

As far as what I think of the trade, I think the important part of the trade is who we get for Nomar.

If we get a package like:
Adam Kennedy
K ROD
AA/AAA blue collar pitching prospect
or
Mota
Jackson
Perez

then I'd do it in a heartbeat. There needs to be a Nomar deal in place for Theo to pull the trigger on the AROD deal. My feeling is that neither Ramirez nor Nomar will be on the team on opening day.

what 3 team trade would that be?

Given that he only hit 26 last year in Texas, and 21 on the road, I seriously doubt he'd sniff 60 in Fenway. The Ballpark at Arlington was the biggest HR inflating park in the AL (I think) and the Rangers as a team hit 140 HRs at home vs. 99 on the road. I guess a better question is, what actual facts make you think ARod is a lock for 60?

Texas Stadium is a great hitter's park while Fenway isn't. Expect ARod's numbers to go down if he has to play 81 games at Fenway every year.

Here are the 2003 VORPs for most of the players involved in these multiple trades and signings we've been discussing.

ARod......................86.3
K. Brown.................60.2
Donnelly.................35.0
Foulke....................34.9
M. Young.................33.8
Cameron................28.4
Guardado...............22.0
Glaus......................17.6
Kennedy.................16.1
Eckstein...................1.5

Manny....................69.2
Muellar...................60.1
Nomar....................58.3
Schilling..................48.7
Damon...................19.4
Williamson..............11.7 (-1.3 w/Sox)
Kim........................25.4 (15.0 w/Sox)

Now....discuss.

And any of you guys actually suggesting that David Eckstein would be a good pickup who could be our starting second baseman next year....shame on you.

The Manny-Arod swap seems to be a real possibility, but the trade Nomar part is pure speculation based on the belief that neither player will be willing to move to 2nd base. Keeping both would be such an offensive & defensive upgrade that it has to be a major factor here. I'm assuming Nomar wants to stay. Those of you wanting to trade him are hoping he wants to go, but there's no basis for that belief.

Some of these might have been posted already, but for those who are interested, here's a hodge podge of ARod coverage from today:

• The Dallas Morning News: "According to sources with knowledge of the discussions, the Rangers would send Rodriguez to Boston for moody but productive slugging outfielder Manny Ramirez, under two conditions: • Boston would have to take the remaining seven years of Rodriguez's $252 million contract. About $180 million remains on the deal. • The Red Sox would have to ante up a significant portion of Ramirez's average annual $20 million salary for the remaining five years of his contract."

• Fort Worth Star-Telegram: "A trade that would send Alex Rodriguez to Boston for Manny Ramirez is stalled because of the Rangers' insistence that the Red Sox also include serious cash considerations in the deal. The Red Sox have yet to agree to the Rangers' demands. That could change if the Red Sox are able to trade shortstop Nomar Garciaparra, a deal they are actively pursuing."

• Boston Herald: "Amid ongoing discussions between the Red Sox and Texas Rangers about a trade that would bring Alex Rodriguez to Boston, there were continuing indications last night that the Red Sox would not be interested in such a deal if they are required to pay any portion of Manny Ramirez' salary."

• The Boston Globe: "The Rangers remain open to trading MVP Alex Rodriguez to the Sox, and the Dallas Morning News reported yesterday that Texas would accept Ramirez on the condition Boston 'ante up a significant portion' of the $95 million balance of Ramirez's contract over the next five years."

• Providence Journal: "The Dallas Morning News reported last night that the Texas Rangers are ready to pull the trigger on an Alex Rodriguez-for-Manny Ramirez trade, provided the Red Sox accept all of Rodriguez's contract and also pay a portion of Ramirez's yearly $20 million salary."

• Hartford Courant: "The Dallas Morning News reported on its website that the Rangers were willing to send shortstop Alex Rodriguez and his hefty contract to the Red Sox for Ramirez."

• New York Daily News: "When the Red Sox traded for Curt Schilling, George Steinbrenner nearly flipped and eventually brought in Javier Vazquez. Imagine the atomic reaction if Alex Rodriguez lands in Boston, a move that might not be so far-fetched anymore."

• The Dallas Morning News columnist Gerry Fraley: "Breaking from their recent pattern, the Rangers are showing intelligence and cunning. They have stopped trying to justify having Alex Rodriguez and his oppressive contract. They are pushing to trade Rodriguez, the American League's best player, to Boston for outfielder Manny Ramirez and the greater goal of payroll relief."

• Fort Worth Star-Telegram columnist Randy Galloway: "Alex Rodriguez for Manny Ramirez. Not even the Rangers are that stupid. Quote me on that. The Rangers are not that stupid."

Just wanted to break this out.

- Deal going down tonight. Think it's Foulke, but stay tuned. Announcement possible late night, or in the early editions.

- There's a twist/addition

- Is it Manny/A-Rod, wishful thinking, sounds like a bit much for tonight

- Sauerbeck, one source says done deal (in next two days I guess), Cubs confirm he's on their list but no deal done.

That's all I've got.

I think it's a bit too soon for John Hart to do an about face on the eating Manny money thing. And I doubt very much Theo is going to pay any of Manny's salary.

Most likely Foulke, but possibly Foulke is going to choose Oakland so they'll ignore it and counter with a nice Sauerbeck deal.

Mikey, I'm not sure that the paying some of Manny's contract came from Hart or anyone in Texas. It sounded like a hopeful beat writer.

Unless you saw the comments from Hart, if so, please post, because I'd like to read that one.

Hopefully Dirtdog is on the money tonight and we get a deal announced tonight that will have us all cheering for Theo!

I admit I have nothing from Hart, but I'm assuming there was some basis in fact for the Texas papers to come out with a mid-evening update rather than just splash it in the morning papers. Rumors are never certainties, but there's often more truth in them than skeptics think.

As for tonight, I'll be perfectly happy with A-Rod or Foulke coming, or Sauerbeck leaving.

For everyone that wants the A-Rod/Nomar DP combo. I guess many think Nomar would make a move to 2B, I really don't think A-Rod would and he is the better SS.

It has always appeared to me that Nomar has been better going toward the 3B bag. Unless I'm wrong on that assumption, wouldn't Nomar hinder the Sox infield defense, since we need a 2B who can take hits away going into the hole near 1B.

Unless of course he cheats quite a bit toward 1B to take advantage of his better range to his right. Though that could hurt the ability to cover the bag on a steal...

Actually, Hart and Showalter are on board for the trade. Apparently it's Rangers owner Tom Hicks who is demanding the money.



The writer didn't make up the story, he got it from an official from within the Rangers organization.

I'm going to once again go on record as saying if its a Keith Foulke signing, I'll be ecstatic. If its a Scott Sauerbeck for Juan Cruz, I'll be okay and if its ARod for Manny with us eating contract (and THEN being held hostage in any trade negotiations for Nomar) I'll be downright pissed.

From the Sox point of view, the money in the ARod/Manny deal
will depend on the money in the Nomar/??? deal.

There has to be a net savings to Boston, or there isn't a big incentive
to deal.

The unknown is they have to put a cost on Nomar's extension.

I'm guessing these deals have to be done very close together, since they are
coupled money-wise.

I'm sure the Rangers are aware of these things.

I think if it is Hicks holding it up, he will break shortly. He has to get out from under that total value of A-Rod's contract or he may not be able to field a competitive teams for a long time.

At least with Manny, the end of the contract is closer... And soon will be 5 million a year cheaper.

Most likely Foulke will be signed, although I still prefer Guardado

I would give Saurbeck a chance in Ft. Myers, but Theo must have other plans...

I would give the A-Rod trade a few more days at this point

I just want to throw this out there now. If, and it looks more and more each day that I should say WHEN, we pull off this arod/manny deal, what can we expect for Nomar in return?

My thoughts are a bit scrambled, because all we hear is how it's either anaheim or the dodgers (with san diego perhaps a long shot). With that being said, the only rumors I've heard have been for Kevin Brown or for prospects from the dodgers. Troy Glaus and Jared Washburn, or Adam Kennedy and prospects from the Angels.

Now, to me, none of those, sans the glaus and washburn (which seems like too much to offer) really sounds like a credible deal.

Kevin Brown: 39 years old. 2 years left at what, $30 Mil? Injury prone. (there's a difference between a late 30-something roger clemens / Curt Schilling, than a 39-year-old K. Brown)

My only hope is that if we trade Nomar, is that we get younger, with prospects, and then take the $10-15 mil that we save on him and either sign a vlad (arod and vlad is younger than manny and nomar) or sign a bat and a pitcher or something. I would just hate to see us trade away "the greatest player to ever put on that uniform" - ted williams, may he rest in peace, for an old pitcher that we'll have for a year. Heck, I'd love to see him play with arod for at least a year... and then get two draft picks for him next winter.

Any thoughts out there?

"I'm going to once again go on record as saying if its a Keith Foulke signing, I'll be ecstatic."

Hey, quite the contrary. I'd like Foulke here too, but not until after the 7th. It seems foolhardy to sign him on the 5th and give up a #1 pick rather than wait a few days & not.

Hi i am new red soxfan here from KS What time centrel time is a deal soposed to be announced and i hope it foulke but i am hoping the red soxs get manny and nomar cause u cant replace to big bats like that does theo even know what he is losing Beween 100 homers 200 rbi's and 2 300 plus hitters that would be a big loss i hope they sign foulke or gardardo but not arod i mean i like arod but he is not wrth giving up manny thanks

Why should any team give up anything of value knowing that we'd HAVE to trade Nomar if we acquire ARod?


Yet ANOTHER reason why I'm against the ARod deal.

I agree completely, 2 big sticks in the lineup is always better than one.

And as far as signing Foulke now as opposed to waiting for the 7th to roll around, the reason is that Oakland will offer Foulke arbitration.

The A's will offer him arby, which means the date we sign him is irrelevent. It's gonna cost the #1.

hey turd ferguson...I dig your style man.

Turd Ferguson, it's a funny name... It's funny.

It's on over-sized hat... it's funny.

I think we could get quite a bit for Nomar even after an A-Rod deal. The reasoning behind my thought is this.

There are three or four teams that are really gunning for a starting SS. The Dodgers, Angels, Mets and Mariners. There may have been one or two more, but these seem to be the main players.

So for the four main players, you have Matsui and Tejada. So there are still at least two out there needing a starting SS, Nomar would be very valuable to one of the teams...

yes, CT, you are right.. there are teams out there needing a SS..but most won't pay $10 for this year PLUS trading away big value, because as Turd points out (i like the name and i like your ways of sox thought) teams know that we'll have to trade him by ST. Either that, or they know next year we won't even attempt to resign him, and then people can sign him for whatever marketvalue and not give up anything in terms of players or prospects... we're boned if we do this... just keep the two best hitters on a team that theoretically was the greatest hitting team in the history of baseball.

The first round pick(s) are the exact reason I'd prefer the Sox give Williamson a shot at closing. I would be upset with Theo, should he give Foulke a big contract and lose a #1, when the Minor Leagues need to be restocked as much or moreso than the Majors.

Same reason that if a A-Rod deal can't be done, I'd move Nomar for a good major leaguer and a couple prospects, then sign Tejada with the savings. Tejada will most likely come in cheaper than Nomar and we can build the team with what we get from any Nomar deal.

If I had to guess what's on tap, it's a Foulke decision. I'll also be ecstatic if this goes down.

Thank god, that Gump won't be running the show anymore. Even with Foulke he would probably find some way to screw things up.

Why couldnt we keep things status quo for this year and if Nomar decides not to resign with Boston after that, THEN I'm sure Texas will STILL want to be rid of ARod's contract.


Theo will really have to wow me if a deal like this goes down.