This post is a call to reason.

If we can get Nomar to sign a contract extension, then this trade should be shelved.

We are going for it in 2004. We sign Foulke, and we will be the God's honest frontrunner to win not just the AL East, not the AL, but the World Series.

Right now, we have one of the top starting rotations in the AL. Pedro, Shilling, Lowe, Wake, and Kim/Arroyo is a fantastic front 5.

A bullpen of Foulke, Williamson, Timlin, Embree, and Malaska is a top 4 AL unit.

And we have the top record setting offense. And that was with down years from Nomar(still healing), Manny(batted .350 the season before), and Damon.

Why in the world would the Red Sox be trading for a 25 million a year HOFer and unloading a 28 million a year "pair" of HOFers!?

It doesn't make any rational sense. If Nomar is willing to sign a 12-13 million a year 4 year contract, then we should be tripping over ourselves to do it. The players union won't let A-Rod take money away from his contract so we are going to have to pay him in full at some time in the future.

I was all for A-Rod, but now, I am not so sure. The Red Sox have good thing going. For all we know, 27 year old Ortiz with full playing time could explode with a .300 batting average and 40 home runs. Varitek and Millar could build on their great seasons and do even better. Trot Nixon may just be realizing his potential.

We were one moron manager away from beating the MFYs. Now we have a smart manager, Shilling, and possibly Foulke.

Keep Nomar and Manny.

Couldn't this just have gone in the hot stove thread, or the 31 page arod/manny thread? It's a lot easier to have everything in 1 thread...as opposed to all over the place.

That is just my opinion.....I'm not in charge so I guess I have no say....Just my opinion.

This was more of an offshoot from that thread.

It's not a hot stove rumor post as much as one man's opinion on the Red Sox upcoming mangement descisions.

Sorry, one man's opinion doesn't merit its own thread.

I have to admire your loyalty, but I don't think that's going to happen. Nomar was already offered a 60 mil. contract before spring training and refused. What makes anyone think he is willing to sign now? After everything that is going on Henry might be tired of Nomar's agent.

In a perfect world I would love to see both players stay and play with one another. That would be a heck of a way to go into the HOF, but I doubt that either player would want to give up his natural position and more either to 2nd or 3rd. Who knows at this point if they might be able to co-exist on the same team without there being personal strain.

edit: my response was back when that guy started the unnecessary thread. my bad.

Another thing about the whole Gasbag issue- the other day he just sort of threw out the fact that the Sox want nothing to do with Washburn. We can maybe find a few reasons why not, maybe. But he just sort of said it like we should all just lap it up like mannah from baseball heaven or something. WHY are they not interested? Should we just be glad you told us at all, Gasbag? WHY? Its an interesting question because there are so many reasons they may WANT him; as a 5th starter, as bait in another trade... see what i mean? not sure where im going with this.

How was that thread unnecessary?

Completely different thread, completely different line of thought, completely different set of responses where people could debate, question, agree, disagree, and hopefully come to a consensus on the Red Sox new direction.

My posts really doesn't have too much related to this thread. It is more in the direction of questioning team management and Red Sox directive.

I will comply, but these boards are turning into the same 5 threads all with 8 pages full of information. And much of that information is NOT related to the topic. You 2nd post on "gasbag" Gammons has nothing to do with Nomar, Manny, A-Rod, Pedro, Henry, Theo, or whoever. It talks about Washburn!

Again, I will comply, but I feel there are many valuable and intelligent posts here that deserve their own thread where they can efficiently be discussed and debated.


WITH THAT SAID.......If Nomar is willing to sign an extension in the 12 million range, I hope this trade crashes and burns. This is a trade for the sake of trading. We are already 10 games up on the MFYs before the season has started with Shilling and Francona alone. We have the best offense. We will probably trade for Spivey or such. Nomar and Manny had down years by their standards. I am firmly against this trade. The media fueled Nomar and Manny hate will not influence me at all.

I had initially thought that the union would only frown up restructuring a contract, now it seems as if the legally binding agreement may prevent Rodriguez from doing that. So what do you do to save money on A-Rod's enormous contract since you can't just chop money off. Defer more money to the end? That's alread been done (isn't he making near $30 a year towards the end if my memory serves me correctly?). So how about incentive clauses?

My understanding is that incentive clauses are included in the value of a contract. Someone school me on this if I'm wrong, but why not make some pie-in-the-sky incentive clauses as part of a newly restructured deal. Something like "If A-Rod hits .400, he gets an extra 5 million." Or perhaps, "If A-Rod leads the club in every offensive category (including stolen bases) he gets an extra 5 million."

If A-Rod can do something like that, I will be interested.

But the union is guided by the almighty doller and the chances are slim and non that they would allow something like this to fly.

However, Slim and None always seem to find a way to haunt the Red Sox so I am sure that something will be worked out. A-Rod wants out. The union cash. In the end, the HOF individual player will win out.

But this trade is not worth Manny AND Nomar. Not in any way, shape, or form.

I agree, let secondary threads live without constantly yanking and tinkering the site. A good site should always have a bit of irreverence, fun and play on them. This isn't business school, we don't always have to be organized to an anal degree eith only 4 threads, all given boring titles, allowed.

At the same time, 5-6 different A-Rod threads are a headache.

I think the barstaff is doing yeoman's work and deserve much credit. But no overmanaging, please. It reminds me of Rick Pitino.

Rick Pitino...yeah.



We should start a thread just for this argument. Everyone with this opinion should just post in that thread so they can endlessly beat down the straw man until it becomes sheep fodder.

This is NOT a valid argument, mainly because Manny and Nomar are not being traded for ARod. All the stories I've read so far only talk about ARod traded for Manny, and possibly money. Unless Nomar-philes have renamed their superstar 'money' (they won't, because it can't be said with a Boston accent), this argument is much like saying that ARod's production is not equal to Manny's production plus Nomar's.

Well, no s**t, Sherlock. It's ARod + something else for Manny and Nomar, so please, stop acting as if we'll get nothing for Nomar in return. ARod for Manny is completely unrelated to what happens to Nomar. Whatever happens on the ARod/Manny front, we'll still have to deal with Nomar separately.

Edit: Typos. Grr.

First time so be nice…

1. I be loving me some Nomar but he was killing me in the post season.
2. He’s not the 1999-2000 Nomar who had yet to break his wrist.
3. Yes, Nomar will always be a great ss and we all love him but…
4. ARod was genetically designed to play and win in the World Series.
5. The offensive #’s can be still made up with a less expensive LF
6. I can only prove #1.

Hi folks...First time poster here from the cape and I have finally found a place where people are just as passionate about the red Sox as I am. I can still remember my first game that I saw at Fenway Park live ( vs. Seattle 6-18-79 ).

But anyway, I am of the belief that if you have the opportunity to acquire the best player in the game who is a proven commodity, then you should do your very best towards getting that player. manny Ramirez never really impressed me from the getgo here in Boston and especially if he wants to go play for the Stankees, then let him go and don't let the door hit him on the way out.

I do feel very sorry that Nomar might be the odd man out in all of this and I got the feeling that he didn't want to leave long before his interview on WEEI. But doesn't anybody else think that if this trade should go through that Nomar should take a page from the Drew Bledsoe book of leaving the Sox with class and dignity ?? I'm sure Drew didn't want to leave here after signing the new contract in 2000, yet here was Tom Brady who put the Pats over the top that Drew couldn't do, even though he had 8 seasons to do it. Nomar is in the same boat. He's been here since 1996 and while he's been one of the best pure hitters in the game and nobody can make a stronger throw from deep in the hole than Nomar, he has had quite a few seasons to put them over the top and win the World series. With the Red sox team as present, very few players in baseball can put the Sox over the top and Alex Rodriguez is one of those players. I just hope that Nomar isn't being disingenuous in the sense that because he is being tabbed as the odd man out and that if A-Rod was any other position player than shortstop, Nomar would be the first to welcome A-Rod with open arms.

This isn't some player who is a rookie or " has potential ". When it is all said and done, A-Rod will be listed with the greatest who have ever played this game. The other thing as well, is that if they can do the 3 way deal sending Nomar to the Dodgers for Odallis Perez and then sending Perez to the Cardinals for J.D. Drew, that would more than offset any loss that you'd get by not having Manny and Nomar and make the whole trade all that much more palatable. The Red Sox eight now may be in the most unique position since certainly the Joe Rudi-Rollie Fingers trade that got voided in the early 70's, if not in the whole franchise's history and who knows when this situation might ever come up again. It's almost as though this isn't a once-in-a-generation thing. We may not see this type of trade in another 50 years, so why not do it. We get rid of Manny who wants no part of Boston and even though we also lose Nomar, we get just as much, if not more in return.

I completely agree with you. You hit the nail on the head in my opinion....

because it was starting a brand new thread for topics being discussed already elsewhere. The word "counter-productive"comes to mind. Moving on...





exactly. if youre still clinging to this argument, you're not seeing the bigger picture about the financial and negotiating reasons for this deal. If you want to break it down and simplify it like that, why dont we make it this- Nomar and Manny for ARod and Schilling. There, that make you feel better? It makes me feel better. Now lets just wait and see if it happens (please, god, soon)

Over in the saloon there is a topic concerning thread management. We encourage feedback because you "the rooters" make the board what it is. I can assure you your opinions count.

The Manny, ARod situation will IMHO happen simply because Hicks needs the 87M the deal clears him. Sure he wants more and wants the Sox to pay part of Manny's contract BUT he is not going to let the 87M walk out the door either. If hockey has a lockout Hicks doesn't have his cash cow in the Dallas Stars.

Nomar I think is going to be moved no matter what, but since I think ARod is coming that is a moot issue. The only question is where. I can't see them trading Nomar in the division, and seeing him 19 times a year.

I have a hunch the Sox will try to have something in place before the ticket party at Fenway on Saturday.

If we trade Manny for Arod and keep Nomar we would very likely win the world series. We can't have that, we're Redsox fans.

Uhh, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but John Henry, Tom Werner, et al isn't going to tie up $ 25 Million + to have 2 shortstops fighting over who gets to play. Maybe if the trade get through, would Nomar consider becoming the second baseman that we so desperately need ?? I find that very hard to believe that he would do so, but I can dream, can't I ???

Holy crap, Mike from Cape Cod. Obviously if we had both Nomar and ARod, they would both absolutely have to play every day. No one is suggesting a platoon. Ha! That's a good one. Nomar won't move to second. I can read his mind.

Anyway, I'm starting to think we're going to have neither Nomar nor ARod, and it's making me want to start drinking before work.

Nomar has already TURNED DOWN $12 million per LAST MONTH. Hello people! IF the Sox want to put $15 back on the table, I think he might take it but absent that he's not signing. No hometown discount as far as I can tell.

The choice is up to you 'cause they come in two classes.

I mean the choice is up to the Sox. They can bite the bullet and complete the ARod deal, dump Nomar and sign Jose Guillen or somebody to play left field. Or they can extend Nomar at $15 a year for 4 years and shelve the ARod deal.

Or they can shelve the ARod deal, trade Nomar, and sign Tejada to play SS. The ball is in their court. They've got to step up to the plate. It's time to kick it off. Let's drop the puck.

I'm tired of all this posturing and nonsense. Somebody shoot Art Tellem and let's have JWH take NOMAR out to dinner for god sakes!

Hey BoSox Girl,

I'm all for getting something for Nomar. So, I say make a Tejada deal (if the Arod trade doesn't pan out) And move on.

I love Nomar. But I don't think he loves us.
The Herald reported yesterday Nomar has had it with everything Boston: the clubhouse, the media, even the weather!

I don't see how Nomar can come back.

If, somehow, Nomar has an about-face, then his contract business must be resolved before the season starts.

We can't let another Roger/Mo situation slap us in the face again.

If we enter the Tejada sweepstakes, we save money, and we get a decent short stop for a few years. We would also still have Manny in the lineup, so the offense basically remains intact.

I think all of these questions will be answered very, very soon.

For one thing, it was cudahy that suggested that we have both A-Rod and Nomar. I know damn well there wasn't going to be a platoon situation. As far as the Miguel Tejada situation, aren't the Red Sox a bit late as far as that goes. He's almost would be a consolation prize if we can't have either Nomar or A-Rod.

Hey Mike,

Yes, you are right we are late in the Tejada sweepstakes, but as someone else pointed out, anything is possible with the Red Sox.

And you are right again, Tejada might be a 'consolation prize' compared to Nomar or Arod, but I think he's pretty good.

I think the upside is that he saves money from a Nomar deal, gives us flexibility to pay people like Nixon or Tek.

Downside, of course, is that Tejada has an issue with running the bases

I've got an idea.... We trade Nomar to the Dodgers for Odallis Perez AND new Dodgers owner Frank McCourt's land in Southie to build a new ball park ????

Spaceman! Come on! Get with the program! The herald didn't "report" this. They made it up! The herald is perfect for puppy training. It already smells like crap, so the little doggies know right where to go.

The herald 'suggested', 'inferred', 'made up', but they can't 'report' something that isn't true.

Herald, I spit in your general direction!

Nomar hasn't left. What do you mean come back? The fans love him. The manager will love him. All the team has to do is pay him. If they want a loveable cuddly bear, then they can go to Curt's house for Christmas. If they want an allstar shortstop, they can stick a check in the mail and shut up.

No offense to you of course. You can believe what you read if you so choose.

I'm a little wired this morning.

I just want Nomar to stay. I would love it if he would play second as Mike suggested. I actually think he's more suited for third, and hell I wouldn't mind if he played left field either but there's no way he switches to outfield and I have serious doubts he would switch to second base.

Of course, if the Sox trade for ARod, we will have both if only for five minutes and Nomar will have to play wherever the Sox say he will play. He is an employee after all and I don't think his position is denoted in his contract.

Howard Bryant reported what most in Boston have known for a while. Gordon Edes confirms this as well, said Nomar told another Globe reporter that Nomar called media "evil."

"Nearing the end of this past spring training, Sox owner John Henry engaged Garciaparra informally about the various grievances Garciaparra held and what it might take for his star shortstop to commit to a long-term contract. Henry found himself dismayed by the inflexible tenor of the conversation; the issues were intractable, if not impossible to repair. Garciaparra hated the lack of space in the Sox clubhouse. He was frustrated with the lack of privacy in the city, and he couldn't deal with an unreasonable media. He even disliked the fact that the weather was different from what he grew up with.

Henry came away with the belief that he simply could not reach Garciaparra; as long as he played in Boston, Garciaparra's complaints could not be mollified. After all, he may have been able to pay $700 million for a baseball team, but even Henry couldn't change the weather. [QUOTE]

Throughout the season, numerous high-level executives sought to feel Garciaparra's positions out, but his attitudes only compounded sentiments of seasons past. He fumed that Boston just wasn't right for him. While it is unclear if the Red Sox attempted to negotiate a contract extension during the season, the club made overtures to him, the biggest being a commitment to open dialogue immediately. Earlier in the season, Garciaparra angered Henry's sense of openness and peace by trying to engineer a media boycott, a move some Red Sox execs referred to as "childish." Even the red carpet line along the clubhouse, designed to provide the players with a sense of privacy and space, was a project largely aimed at pleasing Garciaparra." - 12.10 - Howard Bryant, Boston Herald

Amen to that! This is getting a little old.

My wife would be the first person to tell you how impatient I am.

I am hoping we have some kind of idea what is gonna happen by Saturday. Right now I don't have such a good feeling on the Foulke decision. As for the ARod deal, I am really seeing signs that point to this deal happening.

I love having Nomar on the Sox. But I don't want to get draft picks for him in June 2005.

Man, that sentence could be taken in so many unfortunate ways.

I do agree, lets get it over with. This trade WILL Happen. I predicted it in October when Manny was put on waivers, and nothing I've seen since has convinced me otherwise.

Later, Manny. Thanks for giving us your half.

Hearsay I tell you. It's all hearsay. I choose to believe that Howard Bryant is stretching the truth to please his agenda, whatever that may be today.

Why would Nomar even bother to say he wants to stay if he doesn't? If he hates Boston, why stand in the way of a trade?

It makes absolutely no sense. Explain it to me. I've heard Nomar say he wants to stay. I've seen Howard Bryant write that John Henry said that Nomar was pretty pissed off last year on several occasions. But I heard Nomar say he wants to stay. Just last week. Not last season. Last week.

Hey, maybe Nomar's full of shizzat. I could be wrong. Lord knows, you've been quick to point out those occasions in the past. But I'm still looking for a reason for Nomar to call in to Dale & Neumy's show last week if he really doesn't like Boston. If he really doesn't want an extension and he doesn't like it here, he should be pleased as punch with a trade to either Anaheim or LA. Hell, Anaheim is starting to look like a good team! He gets to play for fun in the sun for a year and then hit the FA market. Whoo hoo! What's the problem?

As far as I can tell, the problem is he likes being the Red Sox shortstop, takes pride in being the Red Sox shortstop, and wants to be the Red Sox shortstop for the next 5 years!

Howard Bryant can suck on it. I want to hear tape.

I tend to agree with The Year. Nomar's dislike of the media is well known, as well as the problems with the clubhouse space, but many of the players share these concerns. Did John Henry or anyone just ask him whether he wanted to stay, or are they just surmising that from his discontent on some matters. Yes, why the media blitz to say he wants to stay. Could be wrong , this smells like the Mo and Roger media talk spawned by Sox officials towards the end of their contract. Again, I really do not know, and I am confused about the whole affair. Do you get the feeling that matters are simply out of hand now, and perhaps the Sox have themselves in a corner?

I sense that Tellum/Nomar have bitten off a bit more than they can chew. This isn't the Harrington/Duke clueless front office anymore. I do not feel that the new guys would fumble this one the way HD did so many times before.

87 Pistons folks. 87 Pistons.

That's what the 2003 Red Sox were. On the verge of beating an aging dynasty only to blow it in heartbreaking fashion (Isaiah Thomas' inbounds pass to Larry Bird).

A few years later, World Champ-eens.

The Sox in 2004, folks. The lessons of 2003 learned, new folk heroes A-Rod and Shilling, and Pedro reaching back for one last year of greatness, lead us to victory.

Picture it.

Let it keep you warm during the snowstorms.

OilCan,

What are you basing your enthusiasm on us landing A-Rod on? There seems to be a shift in the past 48 hours where most in "the know" are saying its unlikely.

rsb

meanwhile Hicks keeps banging the drum for more $$$$$$

Hicks taking no offer seriously without cash
By T.R. Sullivan
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

ARLINGTON - Rangers owner Tom Hicks is quite insistent.

Hicks said on Wednesday shortstop Alex Rodriguez will not be traded to the Boston Red Sox for outfielder Manny Ramirez unless the Rangers get serious financial considerations in return.

"The ball is in their court," Hicks said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/baseball/7466460.htm

I left myself wide open for that one.

I have a feeling , me, my hunch that our boys, LL,TE, JH,TF, etc. do not want to annouce Foulke now. They will soon though. ( I do not know reason for this)
The big 4 are now doing coaches decisions today, and preperations for tomnorrow
at winter meetings. There will be a face to face with the powers to be on the Arod trade getting done. After this the meetings with Pedro,s agent and Ortiz's agent on those deals. After the arod trade will come the Nomar options, which are many. Sign and keep for one, and listening for the teams interested also. Then after all is listened to will a decision to trade maybe come about. One step at a time, one decision at a time.
Remember we will have Ortiz all year, not the lost at bats that went to Giambi and others.
If we get Arod, minus manny = we 1 .25 better. follow me?
if and I say if, we trade Nomar= let's say Perez plus, then trade Parez for a compatent LF ( drew, guillen,and better 2 nd baseman, we still have the potential players plus equal to nomar, manny, and then some.
we will have the best baseball player in the world. that's a biggie.
back to you guys,
think big;

I'd really be a lot more happy with all this if the Angels weren't so insistant on NOT trading Adam Kennedy. I like that kid a lot. Washburn and Kennedy for Nomar seems logical.

But then again supplanting Manny/Nomar for Magpipes/A-rod with a highly rated prospect tossed in for good measure is appetizing as well

I don't really buy that at all. I think they would announce any significant move as soon as it happened. More than anything, I think they would want an answer on Foulke solidified before the winter meetings so they can look into other options down there in New Orleans. It would also make for a feel-good "Christmas at Fenway" if they were able to get something done with Keith before Saturday.

Gammons has reported on ESPN radio that the talks between the Sox and Rangers are effectively dead. IMO this is the right move for the Sox. They want A-Rod (and still may end getting him) but they are not about to bend over and grab their respective ankles for Hicks.

Agree with Embeer, announce Foulke now to set the table for the shindig in NO. Why wait, all the other good relievers are already signed so it's not like we have the secret decoder ring or something.

Hicks is talking like he's in the drivers seat - If the deal doesn't happen we haven't lost a thing - Hicks will be stuck trying to rebuild a team with Arod's extra 89 million strapped to his back -
Manny's still gonna hit the ball all year - He doesn't know any other way - Nomah will as well - He's not gonna be a slacker on his way to free agency -

Is it just me or is Gammons wrong like 60% of the time? If he says this deal's dead, I simply read that like "nobody's talking to Peter Gammons today". Gammons would rather make news than report it sometimes.

The key here, as has been noted, is that we are clearly in a position of strength.

yes, we'd love to have A-Rod, but not at any cost. And if we don't get him, the fall back plan includes two perennial all stars and future hall of famers named Nomar and Manny.

And if we don't sign Foulke. We have Williamson and Kim. Both have been stud, down right dominating closers at times.

These are hardly desperate times. Hicks needs us a helluva lot more than we need him.

rsb

Well if Gammons is saying the deal is dead, then I expect to hear that AROD has been traded for by Friday.

Seriously - he has flip flopped on this so many times now it is getting rediculous. I mean, I can write an article every other day and arbitralily decide which stance to take for that day too.

This is getting annoying - I have zero patience and can not wait until these Winter Meetings are done so I know what is going on, ....

If true, I think that JH has really F-ed some things up here by ripping Tellem.

First off, JH (paraphrasing) stated that there was not much room for any common ground and that Tellem's demands forced the Sox to look elsewhere. Then he called him names. IMO, this was bad for 3 reasons:

1) He overreacted to agent BS-ing in the media and this is going to make it A LOT harder to sign Nomar past 2004 if they ever planned on it (as Theo continues to insist). I mean, no one actually listens to what agents say to the media, do they? Didn't he ever see Jerry Maguire or the ESPN show about Manny's signing?

2) Once Texas saw all of this Nomar stuff out in the open, it realized that it could drive a harder bargain with the Red Sox and was a lot less likely to come off of it's $$ requirements.

3) LA, Anaheim and any other suitor were able to throw Low-ball offers out there because they know the Sox are now in a place where they really have to deal Nomar.

Second, as a result of the ripping of Tellem, Tellem and Theo are going to have a lot of making up to do to get this thing done. This means Nomar might not get signed to an extension until spring training, if at all.

Third, Theo's job is 10 times harder now because, with JH and Tellem going back and forth, the Sox have lost the upper hand in the negotiations. When Tellem walked away from 4/48 without saying anything, that was presumably before Tejada had to go hat in hand to the Angels etc looking for 9M a year. Now that everything is out there, Tellem and Nomar will be less reluctant to come down off their figures.


Ultimately, I think everyone can agree that the worst thing to happen is that the Sox neither acquire A-Rod nor sign Nomar and Nomar walks in one year. After what's gone on in the last week, I think that's the most likely possibility.

Didn't at one point Gammons say that we weren't going to get Schilling too? He changes his opinion...but maybe he is using this as some type of ploy to help the Sox out or something....to give them the upper hand maybe. We see so many comments from the Rangers...or at least articles saying no deal will be done without more money on Manny's contract. So maybe since everyone thinks Gammons has an "in" with the Sox he is saying that there is no deal....to make the Rangers maybe think twice of the stance?

Ok maybe everything I just said is totally off the wall....but I am not a patient person either so I'm thinking this will only take a few more days longer to either happen or not happen. We just have to hang in there a little bit longer.

The deal isn't "dead" it's called negotiations.

In the end it'll be a straight up swap, but John hart's being a cheapo. He'll make the deal in the end.

Agreed. Let's get this over with.

I think the 2004 Sox are improved over last year, so maybe we should just leave it at that and let whatever happens in 2005, happen.

(I sound like Nomar -- "we take it one day at a time, cliche")

this is it