Besides, just because THEO says that HE doesn't expect to make any more trades to add to the payroll, that's not to say that John Henry won't. This has been John Henry's little baby from the get-go and I think everybody will admit that since he has just as much if not better idea what the payroll is looking like, who is to stop Henry to circumvent whatever Theo might say. For all anybody knows, JH purposely told Theo to say that.

Pardon the cliché, but Gammons ain't just whistling Dixie here. ARod was interviewed by a Texas TV station and said that he would love to play in Fenway Park. This of course infuriated the Rangers front office and many of them are urging Hicks to now drop his insistence for the Sox to pay $20 million of Manny's salary.

Let's just be happy that Dan Duquette is no long the GM or he might have given the Rangers 10 mil per year to trade Manny and get A-Rod. He's probably at home watching all this on ESPN like the rest of us going nuts he's no longer in charge. ...

Ya know...whatever. Manny and Nomar at 31 million? Fine. A-Rod and Cruz or Payton at 23 million? Fine. Either way, Nomar or A-Rod will be the face of our franchise, and we will have a WS contending team next year. Let Texas make up their mind on this one.

---I was citing this year's salaries, not average over the course of the contract (A-Rod 20 rather than 25).

You know, is this negotiation with the Rangers even fair? I mean we have John Henry, a certified genius, representing us and they have a guy, Hicks, who throws millions away as though it were the dark meat on a thanksgiving turkey.

If the Sox really want this deal to happen on their terms, i'm sure that some situation will arise that makes it so. Henry made his money exploiting things, why not this situation?

I'd rather Gammons just shut up until he hears something with some substance. It has been made abundantly clear that A-Rod wants to play in Boston and that Boston would love to have him. That's not news. But to go from "this deal is dead" to "this deal is picking up steam" within a 24 hour period is just piss poor. I know things are fluid there, but he needs to be better informed before he declares the truth according to Gammons. Sorry for the rant, but as Red Sox fans we are all emotionally invested. Every time he reports some BS he sends us all into a frenzy. It doesn't help that ESPN covers the winter meetings like CNN covered the war in Iraq. Problem is, when nothing happens at the winter meetings Gammons is forced to just yap away. He's talking to a national audience, but he's playing with our emotions and he should know better. Asshole.

Manny must go. How can any Sox fan want him back after the shi# he pulled last year! Partying with the Yankees and telling the Sox he was sick.

Top that off with he wnats to play for the stinkin' Yankees!!!! He's got to go!

I love Nomar, but he probably has ywo great years left in him, and he will be on the "downside." He really fell off in the playoffs last year.

ARod is better than Nomar right now, and will be five years from now. My son will be heartbroken if the Sox trade Nomar and Manny for that matter, but especially Nomar.

But if it brought the Sox a World Series title.....

... I feel your anger and agree

Manny can't have friends then? He wasn't drinking alcohol....the Yanks stay in the same exact hotel where Manny lived...its not like Manny left his "house" to go find Wilson to hang out with him. He was not "partying" he spoke to him for about 30 minutes. When you are sick are you forbidden to leave your room? Who cares. Yeah its not cool what he did in Philly...but get over it. He wants to play for the Yanks..but who cares. He grew up there and that was his dream when he was a boy. So do I wish he thought differently? Absolutely, but come on....sometimes you just need to let some things go....

Any word on who the Sox will get from the Cubs for Scott Sauerbeck? I heard Juan Cruz, but can't believe that would be true.

I would think a prospect, probably. Maybe bench help, right now we don't have much there-McCarty and Mirabelli.

For better or worse, this is his job. Just because his reports change more than Britany Spears' wardrobe during a concert doesn't mean he's wrong. Although I'm not trying to be contrarion, I do believe that when the Sox and Rangers both say that the ARod trade talks are dead that it is news. It might not be earth shattering, but it's news all the same. Just as it's news when the Rangers shift gears in less than 24 hours and start pushing the Sox back toward the bargaining table. That's a pretty dramatic shift in such a short amount of time.

What this all boils down to is Hicks thought the Sox were going to cave to his demands. If anything, I think we're getting a pretty good indication of how his negotiations went when he signed both ARod and Chan Ho Park. Undoubtedly, Scott Boras is giving John Henry tips on how to play Hicks. And don't think that ARod's public gushing of his affinity to play in Fenway was a faux pas on his part. That was a deliberate shot of adrenaline to get the trade talks moving again. Apparently it worked.

I just want to know when Hicks is going to be at the poker table in Vegas so I can be there to wipe him out.

sunday's ny daily news:

Even as his massive contract-dump trade was being declared all but dead, A-Rod was on television Friday night talking wistfully about how much he'd love to play in Fenway Park. When Rangers manager Buck Showalter was asked how he'd deal with A-Rod's Boston pinings as it affected the rest of the Rangers, he bit his lip on Saturday.

"I think . . . that's something, as this plays out . . . we'll have to address," Showalter said. "I don't have an answer yet, but I will."

When reminded that A-Rod had said "a betting man" would say he'd be at shortstop for the Rangers next year, Showalter was equally terse. "I'm not a betting man," he said.

Another Ranger operative was more blunt: "This (A-Rod) situation is hideous," he said. "What's going on in this game is disgusting."

With all this, the Ranger hierarchy was urging owner Tom Hicks to drop his demands from the Red Sox to pay a portion of Ramirez's salary and just do the deal - straight up - which would still net an overall savings of nearly $80 million for Hicks.

Sean McAdam in Sunday's ProJo echos the Daily News report

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_...meet.ebf0a.html

"ESPN coverage like war in Iraq".

It seems like Theo just put out some more smoke. "No more expensive acquisitions for us." This may be true, Gammons (Yeah, take it for what it's worth) was just saying that since A-Rod's public comments on Friday about the ambience of Fenway and wanting to be with the Sox, people close to Hicks are saying, "Forget the 5 million per year to pay for Manny and just ship him out of town." If this is so, and we're dealing with Nomar, and if we get Rid of Williamson's salary---- can we sign Nomar to play second base?

I'd like to think the only way to beat the Yankees is to outYankee them. If next year is the year, and it seems like we're going for it, why not go to 130, if 125 is the threshold? Aramark can raise the price of beer and dogs another a couple of bucks......so what.......let's put George in the ground along with Mike Francessa.

Holiday gift list for Peter Gammons: Colgate strips, thesarus, personality and pipe bomb.

Man, you better watch out, Jeff Jacobs is not afraid to write an article about you if he wants to, I mean he's a sportswriter, which makes hime one of the greatest people in the world. Just remember how he got his panties in a bunch over the CHB comments, that someone dare profane the holy Gammons will no doubt cause him to write a series of articles condemning Bump Bailey and exposing you for the internet trolling scum you are.

The Rangers management must be steaming after the comment from A-Rod about wanting to play in Fenway. He's really putting pressure on them to trade him. At this point Hicks must really be thinking (or so we hope he thinks once in a while) that it's time to just take Manny and move on.

Apparently the Sox are keeping the Rangers waiting. Gammons says the Red Sox have said they plan to continue negotiations with Nomar rather than entertain more trade discussions for ARod. Think Hicks is pacing right about now?

See this is what happens when your organization has a plan, not just wacky Duquette moves which make no sense when put together in the big scheme of things, like signing Jose Offermen to replace Mo Vaughn's OBP but conveniently forgetting you need to replace his SLG too. I really, really like this ownership, I think it's the smartest in all of baseball, with the dumbest being that guy who put his Milwakee ownership into a blind trust.

He's probably pacing so hard that he's dug a hole. ... He deserves to wait for what he tried to pull.

Who the hell is Jeff Jacobs? I can deal with the insults.......maybe I'll drag him into a court room and show him my world......a far cry from internet trolling scum. Or I could just drag him into the woods out in Western Mass. and find a home for him.

<heavy breathing>

Whew! I go away for a few hours, and I have to read for an hour just to catch up!!!

We're ensconced in the middle of this Manny/A-Rod trade (or non-trade) so we can't really judge it, but if this thing happens, we can look back about 3 weeks from now and dissect how it happened. And I think we're going to marvel at how Theo, Henry and A-Rod pulled it off.

None of us knows what the final outcome will be, but I think it will happen. I mean, I just can't fathom someone who makes as bad an investment as Hicks not taking the $90M savings. He needs to just open wide, grease up the esophagus and swallow his considerably huge pride so he can save his team the cost of several front-line pitchers. He should feel blessed that someone's willing to bail his ass out.

I think, like others do, that Hicks is being played like a fiddle. He could've done it the easy way, and got on his knees and thanked the Sox for letting him not only shed A-Rod's contract but also replace 90% of his production at the same time. But nooooooooo, he had to hold us for ransom.

Well, guess what, Tom? You have no GD leverage!!! A-Rod will be a Red Sox player soon, and you will be LUCKY to have Manny and save $90M over the next 8 years or so.

Exactly - I have heard Jeff Bagwell say on more then one occasion that playing for the Sox would have been a dream come true. So what. Players aren't allowed to have feelings. Another thing what Manny does is never done with malice, It's jsut Manny being Manny - anyone who did not forsee this type of behavior just wasn't paying attention

Do you guys buy all that stuff about ARod and calling pitches, etc? And if so, do you think itll be tolerated in Boston? I cant believe that it would, and itd be the first time in a few years he wasnt even close to being the "only" star on his team. Whats everyone's take?

I could care less about Manny hanging out with players from other teams, even if those players are Yankees. I could care less if he wants to play for our biggest rival, although he risks being ostracized by the fans. But what the hell is this "Manny being Manny" bullshit. Seriously, why is it ok for "Manny to just be Manny" when that means he gets away with not running out ground balls back to the pitcher, not running hard on the bases and loafing in the outfield. Maybe I'm wrong, but $20 million used to get you a lot more...er, that's right, he's the 2nd highest paid player in all of baseball and we are supposed to put up with his antics. No, I don't care about his best friend Enrique Wilson, but I do care about not pinch hitting when asked to and missing doctor's appointments when you're supposed to be contributing to your team. I think we need to get it out of our heads that it is ok for "Manny to be Manny." It simply isn't. The sooner he's gone the better regardless of what numbers he puts up.

Jeff Jacobs writes for the Hartford Courant and wrote an article about an SOSH member who works for the Courant. He threw the guy under a moving train in the article because of some off hand comments he made to Curt Schilling in a chat, most likely because he didnt believe it was Curt Schilling. In part of the article he lambasts the SOSH board for railing against the CHB (Shaughnessy) and cites a post where they suggest the CHB be shot as evidence for just how unscrupulous SOSH is.

I agree whole heartedly with beetlebailey, althought the Manny wants to play for the Yankees thing made me mad as hell when it happened.



I dont buy it 100%, but I wouldnt doubt it. No way itll be tolerated in Boston, if only because Varitek will laugh at him, and once Tek gets through laughing Pedro will probably take off his glove and offer it to AROD, implying if he wants to do Pedro's job he can go ahead and try. Schill will probably just say something, "According to the data sheets on my laptop, there's no chance in hell you'll ever call pitches for me."


While I agree with you on the doctor's appointment and the pinch-hitting part, I cannot, in good consicence, agree with the above quote. Would you rather have a squad made up of Merlonis or Ramirezs? Production will always be more important than attitude, no matter what. Ted Williams is a perfect example of that.

according to sunday's projo, schilling requested and received the locker next to Tek in the red sox clubhouse

very, very funny. isnt it funny- before this trade, my impression of schilling was a total badass manly man- now he seems like an everquest playing, stathead computer nerd. and somehow, that makes him that much cooler to me. that he can be that physically dominant and anerd to boot. i love it. im officially aboard the schilling train.

Well unless that frees up a locker for A-Rod, or turns Manny into a Red Sox fan... wrong thread.

I've read reports on this, but none have explained the context in which this supposedly took place. There are situations in which signs and pitches are relayed by the manager through middle infielders to the catcher. But that middle infielder is not "calling the pitch", the manager is. Perhaps ARod was upset that Buck didn't want to send his signs through him like Narron did. That could be what it's about, or it could be that Narron indeed allowed ARod to call pitches. However, I have my doubts that a manager would relent that sort of decision making to any player other than the pitcher and catcher. It just doesn't make sense.

Well, with the pitching in place, I'm officially dumb and happy-- and only fat in theory. I think we can all calm down and just enjoy the rest of the hot stove season. I trust the ownership and GM fully and believe winning is the #1 priority. Enjoy the Pats tomorrow-- you know that Pro Football team we have in Foxboro.

Well Ill be damned if the old Double D isnt a bit fired up! Maybe from some other threads?

Dog- It's two thirty in the morning and your contribution is "wrong thread."?? Well guess what.....You're post belongs in the "I'm being a bitch thread." So...."wrong thread!" right back at ya.

Question: Is the ARod talks heating up again a ploy to drive down Nomar's price? Discuss. Discuss.

That's a pretty easy statement to make, but doesn't really capture the essence of my point. HMM...do I want Merloni;s or Ramirez's? Come on, if you are going to make an argument you have to make it atleast somewhat reasonable. Manny makes $20 million per year and he gets mad when we question his work ethic? Last year's team was different from any other team in recent memory for one very important reason...chemistry. No, I can't demonstrate with any cold hard facts just how important it was, but for the first time these guys were actually a team. Manny doesn't fit that mold. He's a huge asset at the plate, but a liability just about everywhere else (bases, field, clubhouse, hotel bars). So no, I wouldn't swap a team full of Manny's for a team of Merloni's, but that's really not the alternative, is it? What I would do is make the deal for A-Rod in a heartbeat or shop him elsewhere. Until then, I guess we'll just all have to roll our eyes in disgust when Manny wants to just be Manny again. Lowered expectations are never a good thing.

JBP- Good question and I believe it is two-fold. One, it probably will drive his price down and our talking to Nomar makes Hicks sweat a little more.

Of course I'd like it if the two could co-exist in our middle infield. Supposedly Damon, Williamson and Kim are all being shopped. WTF are we supposed to do in center if he goes? Jacque Jones? Jim Edmonds?--- Edmonds is a possibility, as Jocketty was on the wfan today talking about possible moves and he wasn't sure if he could afford another pitcher-- alluding to Willy.......so, maybe Edmonds could be had, assuming we can wheel Damon out of town. Thoughts?

think you might have something there. minnesota is DESPERATE for bullpen help. we could probably get him for kim or willy.

I'd love him in center.....and anyone who throws like their arm isn't broken is a plus in my book.

I'm sure Theo and Bill James looked at Edmonds' hit charts and drooled a bit.

Chemistry is cool, but the Yanks and the As from the 70s proved you could hate each other and still win. You are correct in calling me on my false dilemma in terms of Merlonis vs. Ramirezs, I tip my cap to you. Even if you buy into the chemistry theory, for all the chemistry Manny ruins, we somehow made it pretty far last year. I dont know about you though, I wasnt rolling my eyes in disgust when Manny hit that bomb offa Zito to save our asses.

It never fails. Whenever I put somebody on a pedestal (The insider info has been nothing short of amazing) they inevitably do or say something really dumb and end up disappointing me.

Welcome to the club, DD. And keep the primo info coming...

(disclaimer: this post does not free up a locker for A-Rod)

There's no question that chemisty alone doesn't win games. Manny is one hell of a hitter and he did hit a huge HR in the ALDS (his only big hit of the series mind you). I don't want to give up his bat, but if you can get a guy with more than one tool who actually 1) wants to play here and 2) gives you effort on every out then I'm all for it. We can win with Manny and I'm guessing that we will in the future. I just believe that chemistry is one element that can't be missing from a championship team. I think this point will be proven in NY now that they ultimate clubhouse cancer has just signed to play RF. Either way, I think this is moot because it is likely that Nomar will be resigned and Manny will continue to be our LF.

Neither does this one. Or my next one. But the one after that will.....I think. <_<

Barry Bonds is a Yankee?

ok everybody all aboard the jacque jones bandwagon. the minnesota/ boston thing looks like a good match as far as need is concerned, and i bet damon could yield a 2b, maybe even cheap. jones isnt perfect- his OB is pretty poor (worse than jd) but hes got some pop, and is (as far as i can tell) a superior defensive player. best part? makes just souht of 3 mil (last year. does anyone know what he gets next year?)

awww, LTrain, why does everybody gotta hate on Bonds? Hes so damn amazing to watch, and I for one, watching him just kill the Braves not days after his dad passed was inspiring. Im sorry, I am an unabashed and proud Bonds admirer. Trust me, you guys will one day tell your kids you wathced him play. OK, here come the roid jokes and wrong forum posts. sorry, i just felt it had to be said

He's this generation's Ty Cobb. I used to like him to, but then he got on roids. You dont think its suspicious when a player adds 40-50 lbs. of solid muscle around his 35th birthday? Or that his body structure just completley changed out of the blue?


Jones is arbitration eligible, so its up to the arbiter. Who are we gonna trade to get JJ? And according to the ZR (The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," as measured by STATS, Inc) numbers Damon is better than Jones in the OF. He's better offesnively, but thats about it, and plus he's gonna be a FA after this year, which can be good or bad depending on how you look at it.

But he doesn't get away with it, does he? Each time he has pulled a "Manny", the team has sent him a strong message (sometimes privately, sometimes publicly) that what he did was unacceptable. And he has responded to each message, rarely duplicating any particular transgression.

I always begin my thoughts of Manny with two points:

1) He's one of the most consistent, top 20 All Time Great Hitters around. Did you know that only Barry Bonds and Frank Thomas have higher career OPS+ among active players (minimum 3000 PAs)? That's what $17M a year gets you.

2) Eddie Murray, who played alongside a young Manny in Cleveland, is on record as saying that Manny is the dumbest ballplayer Murray ever met. Period.

So, if these two things are constants and I'm a baseball fan hoping my team wins the World Series every year, I put a lot more weight in constant #1. Constant #2 is maddening at times, but the man isn't paid to think. With proper, strong management he is nothing short of a perennial MVP candidate.

If he goes to Texas for ARod, yay! If he stays, yay! Kind of a nice "problem" to have, actually.

Well Jones is going to make 4.35M next year (free agent at the end of '04) 28 years old I believe...I guess Twins would make this deal as they lost both Milton and Guardado...I think they have enough OF to get by without Jones (Stewart, hunter and?). So I think we would only get Jones if we could get rid of Damon.... because if we are back to trading Manny situation again and then having to trade Nomar and needing a LF and a 2B...well I think our offense would miss the power that I don't think Jones has (only 16 hr last year).

So I say that if the Sox are keeping Manny and Nomar and are some how trading Damon away then I guess Jones would be fine in CF. With Damons 8M salary next year and 8.5 in 2005 the Sox would be saving a little under 4M with getting Jones. But I do not see any takers for Damon....but what do I know? I can't think of a team that would like a CF right now at that cost....maybe we are stuck with Damon? I don't see that as a bad thing, great defense...no arm though...I wish he was more consistent (one half of year is bad, the next is good)...

So in conclusion I do not have a clue what else Theo could possibly do to this team...and I am not worried whatsoever....Theo is the man...I wish I could buy him a drink.



edit: in first paragraph I was saying Twins might except the deal of Williamson for Jones, but now I'm thinking that Williamson is pretty good why should we give him up for a 1 year rental...but at the same time we need to reduce the payroll a bit....I don't know...ok I'm going to sleep!

The Dallas Morning News


NEW ORLEANS – The Rangers spent the last two weeks spinning their wheels in an effort to free themselves of the oppressive Alex Rodriguez contract.

That effort all but dead – "not even worth discussing," according to general manager John Hart – a campaign began Saturday to spin something else: The perception that Rodriguez's presence next opening day will be anything but uncomfortable for all concerned.

Facing a throng of national reporters during his scheduled Winter Meetings media session Saturday, Rangers manager Buck Showalter kept a straight face and did his best to convince a skeptical audience that spending the winter openly pining to be paroled from Arlington was simply A-Rod's way of showing how much he cares.

"But he clearly doesn't want to play there," a New York writer pointed out.

"I don't think it's clearly anything," Showalter argued. "Alex has said all along he wants to do what's best for Tom Hicks and the Rangers' organization. If what's best for the Rangers is to have Alex play for us, that's exciting."

Exciting?

How excited will Rangers fans be to cheer for this reluctant guest, whose weighty salary inevitably helped squeeze out such devoted Rangers as Pudge Rodriguez and Rafael Palmeiro? How excited will young teammates such as Hank Blalock, Michael Young and Mark Teixeira – guys who are here for the long haul – be to play alongside a "team leader" who would rather be beating their team in a Boston uniform?

How can the manager – whose own issues with the shortstop remain ambiguous but pertinent – trust that No. 3 will continue giving his all for a team no longer No. 1 in his heart?

"I don't see it as an issue – at all," Hart said. "This is part of modern baseball. We're counting on Alex coming back. Alex plays hard. His teammates will welcome him back with open arms."

Rodriguez has always shown too much pride and natural ability to give anything less than his best effort between the lines. Even when his days appeared numbered in Seattle, Rodriguez didn't allow the mountain of free-agency gold gleaming on the horizon to distract him from his quest to be recognized as baseball's best active player.

But things are different now. Rodriguez is closer to 30 than he is to 25, and for the first time is starting to consider his career's mortality. He finally has an American League MVP award for his mantle, but his jewelry box remains bereft of championship rings. Three years of enjoying all the comfort and privilege that a quarter-billion dollar contract can provide has only taught Rodriguez that money can't buy everything.

What would make him happy? Well, as recently as Friday night, A-Rod was telling a Boston Globe reporter in his real hometown of Miami that Boston's Fenway Park "is just a phenomenal place to play. Great fans, great ambience. And the town, it's just great, a great baseball town. I never realized how incredibly passionate they are about the Red Sox."

Nor did we realize how passionate Rodriguez is about the Red Sox. And this is who Rangers fans are being asked to invest their season-ticket money to support?

"Alex plays the game hard, he plays the game right, and the people in Arlington respect that," Showalter said. "If you look at the reality of why [the trade] has been entertained, Alex loves the Rangers and what the commitment has meant for him, and he wants things to work out for everybody.

"I know how it may look to some people, but I feel very strongly that Alex will continue to be a very positive presence in our organization. ... I don't think it will be a tough sell to his teammates or the fans. I'm looking forward to spring training, and I know Alex is, too."

Ah the media, Deal On, Deal off, Deal on, Deal off. Fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.