Can't we just put this to bed and move on with our unhappy stars? This deal is not going to happen and it must be distracting to the team. I'm ready to sign a second baseman and count the days until pitchers and catchers report. More importantly, I can't wait for opening day in Baltimore and opening day part 2 when I see Mr. Schilling make his debut in the finest uniform he'll ever wear.

Again, being a greedy SOB I don't want Jacque Jones (a mediocre LEFT fielder) to be the Sox' center fielder. I would take Edmonds in a heartbeat, or Beltran, or pry "problem child" Milton Bradley away from Cleveland with pitching (chemistry be damned).

I have been leading the trade Damon charge for many a moon (thank you all who have taken up my cause recently) and I am quite picky about who his replacement should be. Remember, comrades...the Sox in 2004 should be favored to win the World Series, and EVERY single roster slot should be optimized to make that happen.

That means "no" to the acquisitions of Guillen, Jenkins, Payton, Cruz Jr. or Jones in the OF. It means "no" to the acquisitions of Eckstein, Kennedy or Walker in the IF. It means "no" to the acquisitions of Garcia or Washburn.

Let's hold out for the best, folks. I'm tired of "settling" for anything.

This deal is far from dead, whether you like it or not. Are you seriously gonna listend to the mainstream media? The same ones that said this deal was nearly completed a while a go, the same ones that said it was dead a week ago, the same media who now say it's on again (depending on who cyou choose to believe, newspapers or Gammons), the same media that said Foulke was headed back to Oakland and that the Schilling deal was going to fall apart? It's not dead till the Dirt Dog says its dead.

So in the space of 4 hours, the Dallas beat writer pulls a 180.

Truth is there is no drop date that I know of. They could make this deal a month from now. We the fans just assumed something would happen in NO.

Course Texas may also be waiting for the best time to drop the bomb, and that would be on a day the Cowboys are playing.

One thing hasn't changed. Hicks needs cash and he can wipe nearly 90M of the ledger by saying yes. Hicks has a pipedream that he may unload ARod on the Cubs and get Sosa in return but no way that is happening.

There WILL be a point when JWH walks away from the table. Only he knows what that date is.

BTW we will now almost certainly be getting chat installed to reduce the one liners and extra chit chat. That should make everybody happy. We already have had one donation for the board.

I m going back to bed.

Beware! 'Holding out for the best' will land you in the 'People who obviously want the Red Sox to be like Yankees' blacklist that some people have. True Red Sox fans always settle.

Ok, no more sarcasm.



Distracting? Probably not. From in season comments, half of the Red Sox really could care less which prima donna comes to play for the Sox, and the other half is either on the trade block or already has left.

.....

Either all of a sudden I became really bitter, or it's just from lack of sleep, or I reflexively play devil's advocate.

Pardon me while I go slap myself around.

.....

What I really meant to say is that the Sox will find some way to deal with distractions (they always do) and I'm not sure much can break the chemistry of next year's team.

My orignial post and my "Manny being Manny" is not meant to excuse his actions. I jsut find it odd that the very same behavior he exhibted in Cleveland, the very same not worse, better or differant - well now it comes as a big surprise. It really is myopic - when he was signed all of his foibles were known. It suits Sox fans to get rid of Manny now and that's fine. What amazes me is the vacuous reasoning.

Interesting thought, I read this somewhere and can see no way an A-Rod for Sosa trade goes down. Sammy is a 10 & 5 player so he can't be traded unless he waives his no trade clause. Why in the world would he want to play for the horrible Rangers when the Cubs just came off a plaoff season? Makes no sense.

Exactly what reasoning is vacuous? That Sox fans thought that $20 million would entitle them to a player that actually gives 100%? We knew we were getting a guy who was aloof, but I don't think we expected him to play only when he feels like it. Maybe I'm wrong.

The deal will get done today. Just a strong feeling, nothing more.

I'm sure Hart will convince Hicks that Sammy is on the decline,
and not as good an option as Manny.


This deal has to happen within the next few days--if it happens at all.
For one, it's holding up other trades--and other players available.

Henry has to find out quickly if he can afford to extend Nomar.
How much it will take.

If it's too much, he'll deal for ARod.

It's all about saving money--both sides--that's the incentive.
Not sure Hicks really understands that.

Hey hytem,

I forget which one of the papers printed that Nomar was seeking something in the 17 million per year range last spring. Not sure if that has changed or not.

The Sauerbeck for a lump of coal deal?

A new poster at SOSH named Zona90 posted this a few moments ago:

Got this from another site. Don't know if it has been mentioned but here is another rumor.

I have no link and no way to prove anything so take it as you would with a huge lump of salt...but I have connections with a high ranking Dodger official who told me a HUGE blockbuster is in the works that eclipses any of the rumored scenario...
Here is how it would work and how the money works out

Dodgers get: Manny Ramirez
Texas gets: Nomar Garciaparra, Darren Dreifort, 2 mil from LA, 5 mil from Boston
Tampa Bay gets: Scott Williamson, Odalis Perez , Edwin Jackson,
Boston gets: Alex Rodriguez, Aubrey Huff, and Marlon Anderson

This is how it all works financially:

Dodgers starting already at a -11 after the Brown-Weaver+3mil. Add Manny (+20) and $2 mil to Tex (2)= +11, Subtract Dreifort (12), Perez (4), Jackson (.3) = -16.3
Total = -5.3 million or 5.3 million in flex to get free agent starter

Tampa Bay Add Williamson (+3), Perez (+3), Jackson (.3)= +6.3
Subtract Huff (.3) and Anderson (.75) = -1.05
Total = + 5.25 million (but get 3 quality arms for Aubry Huff who's multi year extension talks are flopping and Marlon Anderson whom they were planning to non tender anyways


Texas Add Nomar (+11), Dreifort (+12), = +23 mil
Subtract Arod (-20.5), $7 mil from Bos and LA (-7) = -27.5
= - $4.5 mil in financial flexibility to get more pitching

Boston Add Arod (+20.5), Huff (.3), Anderson (.75) , $5mil to Texas = +26.55
Subtract Manny (-20), Nomar (-11.5), Williamson (-3) = -34.5
Total = $7.95 mil in financial flex for the bench and bullpen

Wow. Wow.

If that happens, the only concern I have is the gains by Tampa Bay. Toronto's improving, Baltimore might have Vlad and Tejada next season, and in that scenario Tampa Bay gets Williamson, Perez and Jackson? I was more comfortable when the AL East was a 2 team race.

Wow. Do you think this was the deal your Dodgers source was referring to?

EDIT: Upon rereading, I realize that the source was Zona's not yours. Sorry for any confusion.

I know Zona very well but have not contacted him about his Source.

Schillondahill

After reading Jack's post my first angry thought was: Why would we trade Manny AND Nomar AND SW for 2 pieces of crap and A-Rod ... Then I looked up Huff and Anderson. Their offensive numbers aren't bad at all...

Huff:

AVG .311 SLG .555 OBP .367 RBI 107 HR 34

Which is better than Nomar's offense last year in every category.

AVG .301 SLG .524 OBP .345 RBI 105 HR 34


I'm sure you've all looked @ A-Rod and Mannys stats but here they are again.

A-Rod:

AVG .298 SLG .600 OBP .396 RBI 118 HR 47

Manny:

AVG .325 SLG .587 OBP .427 RBI 104 HR 37



I guess it all comes down to heart. I love Nomar. I hate the fact that baseball's a business. It's not like Little League. It's not like playing in the back yard with only 5 other kids to play with. It's a business and moneys involved. I also know that millions of people's hearts are involved. We all want to flood the streets of Boston and enjoy the parade; watch our players hoist the trophy high above their heads in triumph. Last years team was great. Theo went out and got awesome players in Mueller, Millar, Ortiz, and Walker and they came up HUGE. I trust him with the business aspect of it. But not my heart. I still miss Shea... but im glad Mueller came in. A-Rod - I will definately learn to love, but you still have to feel for a guy like Nomar. He's the wicked hott chick Theo and Tellem are fighting over... but Nomar seems to love Boston. As for Manny... his attitude sucks, so i could care less where he goes. I wish something would happen already. I'm driving myself insane.

"If that happens, the only concern I have is the gains by Tampa Bay."

If their young talent progresses to their potential & the organization spends money wisely, this team could be very dangerous in a few years. Baldelli and Crawford are already good, and Upton and Young are likewise potential stars. Pitching is what they need, but Brazelton was great in the AFL.

I am not going to comment on the truth or veracity of that rumor, but I just checked out the news from Tampa and found this article from today's St. Petersburg Times. The DRays have 2 undisclosed trades that will be announced today and they say that there have been talks with the Dodgers, among others, about Huff. Oh yeah, and they have $10M to play with this offseason. You have to read through a lot of crap to get to it:

Improved AL East to deter Rays' rise
Manager Lou Piniella wants to look toward 2005 for a breakthrough season.
By MARC TOPKIN, Times Staff Writer
Published December 14, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NEW ORLEANS - Devil Rays officials spent Saturday working hard at improving, advancing talks with outfielder Carl Everett toward a potential conclusion - one way or the other - as soon as today while actively starting to explore other options and making two undisclosed trades likely to be announced today.

But no matter what they do to get better, manager Lou Piniella acknowledged they're not likely to get any closer to first place.

The dizzying improvements by the other AL East teams led Piniella to admit that to make any significant gains, the Rays are going to have to wait 'til next year - as in 2005.

"It's a little disheartening, really, when you look at the improvement of the teams in your division," Piniella said. "This will all come together for us in the year 2005, but it's getting through this season here and winning upwards of 75 ballgames, getting this thing close to .500. I never thought I'd be speaking this way as a manager, but, my God, you've got to be realistic. That's a tough division. We play 76 games in our division. And these are good teams we're talking about."

As Piniella spoke, word filtered through the winter meetings media work room that premier closer Keith Foulke had agreed to join the Red Sox, who already have added Curt Schilling and are exploring other major acquisitions.

The Yankees have acquired Javier Vazquez, Tom Gordon, Paul Quantrill and Kevin Brown, are close to signing Gary Sheffield and Kenny Lofton and are open to more.

The Blue Jays have added three solid starting pitchers - Pat Hentgen, Ted Lilly and Miguel Batista - and veteran reliever Kerry Ligtenberg to a strong offense.

The Orioles are about to open the Peter Angelos vault and sign at least two among a group of four elite free agents: Vladimir Guerrero, Javy Lopez, Ivan Rodriguez and Miguel Tejada.

Buoyed by the performance of the young players and ownership's commitment for at least $10-million to improve the team, Piniella spoke optimistically toward the end of last season that the Rays were close to becoming competitive.

Now he admits they aren't going to get there this season.

"Things are not further away. They're closer," he said. "The only problem is that our opposition is getting further away."

"We've improved. From the team we have now to the team I took over last year, we're a better team. And we're going to get better as we sign a few players. The problem is that our competition is getting further and further away, too.

"It's like buying a nice sports car that goes a certain amount of speed, and now you're chasing a race car around."

Piniella said baseball must do something to help competitive balance, that the luxury tax system obviously isn't working.

Until then, teams such as the Rays, with a major-league low projected payroll of about $26-million, must build slowly from within.

"This is really a big challenge," Piniella said. "I love challenges, and this is a big challenge. I thought Seattle was a challenge. This is a big challenge.

"We'll get it done here. We've just got to get a little more of our farm system to start feeding. Probably in the year 2005, I think, this thing will really start coming together. The guys we've got here will have more experience, and our young kids will start feeding (into the system). Hopefully, our win-loss record will get better, our attendance gets better, our payroll gets higher and we get this thing where it needs to be. You've got to get it to $40- or $50-million payroll-wise to give yourself any chance at all."

In the fifth day since the Rays made an opening $6-million, one-year-plus-an-option offer to Everett, general manager Chuck LaMar said he was in the process of exchanging counterproposals with agent Larry Reynolds.

"It's gone from us making an offer to both sides having a feel for what each other is looking for," LaMar said.

But the Rays also decided the window of talking only to Everett had ended, with LaMar having exploratory talks with representatives for Juan Gonzalez and Jose Cruz.

Agent Alan Nero said Gonzalez had interest, and Cruz's agent, Randy Hendricks, wrote an e-mail saying, "The Rays are interested and so is Jose."

Reynolds also is talking to other teams and is expected to narrow the field today in his effort to get Everett signed by Monday.

The deals likely are for a left-handed starting pitcher and starting infielder.

The Rays talked trade with several teams, including the Dodgers, who have interest in Aubrey Huff

MLB Radio from mlb.com says that the D-Rays have traded a minor leaguer for Geoff Blum of the Astros (no link yet).

They've also been involved in a three way trade that sent Justin Speier of the Rockies to the Blue Jays, Mark Hendrickson to the D-Rays, and Joe Kennedy to the Rockies. (Link)

So those are the two trades.

After looking at that deal, who is going to pitch for the Dodgers next year? Brown is gone, Perez is gone and Edwin Jackson is one of their top pitching prospects. That is a major weak point in that deal. I can't see LA doing that. It is fun to look at though.

If a rumor can be considered "impressive", this 4-way transaction would be. I think it makes financial and baseball sense all around.

However, having said that, the Dodgers, particularly with Dan Evans struggling to retain his job, are being driven too much by the imperative to make a big splash by adding a big bat. Manny would be unlikely to turn the club around single-handedly, and might not be quite so well-suited offensively and defensively to Chavez Ravine; in the long run, his best position is probably DH. With the Dodgers, he might rival Barry Bonds for league leadership in intentional walks.

The D-Rays would make out very well with this deal, gaining 3 good, affordable, young pitchers. Huff would be a big loss, but I doubt his impact would equal the 3 pitchers. I don't have the Win Shares to quantify that judgement, but I suspect that all 3 pitchers would increase their productivity next season due to a larger role and/or maturity.

For Texas, it's all about getting out of a financial straitjacket, and be competitive in a couple of years with Texeira, Blalock, and Nix.

Theo seems to have sincerely re-entered negotiations with Nomar, and I think the Sox management would really hate to see Nomar leave because he is the most popular player since Yaz. However, A-Rod + Huff project to equal or exceed the production of Manny + Nomar, plus they get a 2B solution with Anderson, and significant net salary savvings. I'd do it, if they've really arrived at the conclusion that the commitment to Manny should be eliminated.

This could be, althought creative, a fan created rumor.

The idea of Texas taking on Driefort seems doubtful.

I agree with Skip. Losing Dreifort, Brown, Perez leaves their rotation as Nomo, Ishii, Ashby, Weaver and Alvarez...And Ashby was terrible last year. To trade all that pitching away for just Weaver and Manny leaves me to think there's no way it'll happen. The Sox would be better off just dealing without Tampa.

I'm located in SoCal, and I think you're underestimating the pressure on Evans to add an impact bat.

I do wonder if A-Rod to Dodgers for Dreifort/Perez/Izturis would be a possibility.

jsut to let everyone know, Jim Bowden is reporting on ESPN News that the Arod deal is closing in on being completed. this on again off again thing continues

Thurm13

Anymore details.....did Bowden if more than just Sox - Rangers?

basically it was the deal was going to be straight up. he didn't talk about the money at all. makes me think Hicks has let down his stance. and he said the players union had to ok any restructuring of A-Rods contract.

then he stated that both Anaheim and Los Angeles were both very interested in acquiring Nomar. Anaheim is offering Ramon Ortiz while the Dodgers are still saying Odalis Perez. i'm not sure who i'd rather have. remember this, Pedro is Ortiz's idol. could work out in a sox uniform

Stark was on ESPN News saying the deal is starting to pick up steam. Sox continue to negotiate with Nomar and if they want A-Rod they have to move Nomar first. Apparently Texas now wants to get this thing done.

Bowden is working phones for more info.

Stay tuned...

It was my understanding that the Union would just like to make sure his Contract dosn't lose value, but they don't have the authority to okay or nix the deal. Anybody have knowledge of the Unions role in this deal?


Schillondahill

EDIT Typo

Isn't Ortiz like 700 years old?

I would prefer Perez because he is younger, LH, and has better numbers. That said, one cannot evaluate a Nomar for Perez or Ortiz trade without knowing the other players involved.

that's true, but i'm wondering if whatever pitcher they get isn't going to be turned around into another position player. remember, the cardinals are still looking for pitching help. is it possible to send Perez and Williamson to the cardinals for Edmonds? is he still on the block since Drew was traded? previously it was said that both were on the block, but i dont' think the cardinals would trade both.


another note, from what i'm reading and hearing, Williamson seems to be the one to go before BK.looks liek BK is going to be given a shot in the rotation.

I think Ortiz is one of those guys from the DR who nobody really knows how old he really is .....

Schillondahill

Bowden just moments ago: The A Rod deal is taking on "tremendous momentum."

Looks like grocery shopping can wait

Thanks for the update mascho.

Ortiz went from being 23 to 27 in the winter of 2001-2002 so that puts him at 29 right now. Perez is 26, I think.

Edmonds is cheaper than Nomar would be:

2004: $9.0M
2005: $10.0M
2006: $12.0M
2007: Team option $10.0M or $3.0M buyout

The only problem with that contract is that Edmonds will be 37 when the contract is up.

Well, Jim Bowden is reporting that the Red Sox are negotiating on both fronts with Nomar and Arn Tellem as far as negotiating an extension but still talking to A-rod, so that if Nomar flinches in any way, they will have A-Rod to fall back on. But he said either way, that in the short term, it doesn't look like A-Rod is going anywhere.

That makes more sense, since Theo has said he is back in negotiations with Tellum. Nomar has one more chance to accept a fair offer.

It's also very smart business. Negotiate all sides until the best deal is reached. I just love what this ownership and GM are doing for the Sox.

Watch out the way you take Jim Bowden's comments. He could be getting used by the general managers to help them score points in their little game. Jim Bowden is far from an experienced reporter. Remember he ran the Reds for years and he has put that franchise in the dump.
I would only listen to Gammons and Stark unless a deal is confirmed by the club.

From ESPN's Buzz


Here's the link if you are an insider ESPN Buzz

I say something on this gets done by Wednesday if its really going to happen. Either Nomar will be signed or we will have Arod.

Gasbag on ESPN News at 7 eastern time. Lets see what he has to say.

YUP, Gasbag sez 6 year @ $54 mil, NOT $65 mil...

Gasbag:

ARod/Manny still alive. Extension talks with Nomar continue.

Nothing new in other words. I think we'll know who's playing SS for us next year by mid-week, though.

I hope so because this is getting really old. I would like to see the Sox start to concentrate on getting a second baseman and acquiring roleplayers for the bench.

To expound on that ... Gammons also reports that this is being driven completely by the Rangers. Hicks' inner circle is advising him to stop insisting on the $5 million per year for the life of Manny's contract and just do the deal straight up. The Red Sox officials are asking, why should the Sox trade away both Manny and Nomar for ARod, especially when it's uncertain they could get enough for Nomar in any deal? Those Sox officials say they would prefer to continue negotiations with Nomar and get that locked up.

So, according to Gammons, JH has been talked off the ledge. If I remember correctly, it was reported in several places, including on BZ, Globe and Dirt Dog, that JH wanted Nomar gone, no matter what.

obviously, when we know for certain the contract signed byManuel we will fill in the blanks on the proposal to be made to Nomar and if he again refuses we will aggressively seek the alternative to Nomar

if they DON'T do this deal, then say goodbye to 3 out of 4 of Pedro, Lowe, Tek and Nixon. there's no way they can afford all those salaries and stay beneath the 120M threshhold. that's the attractive part of dealing for arod, you can afford to keep the rest of the team together.

gammons might be spinning, btw. the more he says the red sox want to keep nomar, the more the texas people think their chances of dumping arod decrease. i'm sure that there are people in the sox organization who do want to keep nomar. but there can't be many who want to keep manny ... and this is the one shot they have of sending him outta here. ... gammons could just be reporting what red sox folks want him to say, in hopes of increasing the pressure on hicks

Wendy Nix also reported at 6:00 that Theo said he may have another move made before the meetings end tomorrow.

Not necessarily. The Sox officials are the people around JWH, who might or might not be listening. Or, it could be a smoke screen to make the Rangers squirm.

I don't think we can be sure of anything right now. It appears the Red Sox have called the Rangers' bluff on the demand to pay a portion of Manny's salary. The question is, are the Sox serious about not returning to the table to talk about the ARod trade?