[quote=Jonnyboy,Dec 14 2003, 10:41 PM] [QUOTE]Plus if Aubry Huff comes along then the pitching around could be a mott point because Huff would provide security in the next slot.

What is the deal with aubry huff i havnt heard anything on him really, you have any information? [/quote]
I don't know to much about him other then the OPS+ I was just givin in a response a few posts up from here but he is young, doesn't have an outrageous salary and is likely not to be with TB next season and is one of the better reasonably priced alternatives out there. On the other hand I heard he sucked against the MFY so if that's true he needs work. But from the little I've seen of him, he looks like a good alternative if the Sox really want to get under the luxury tax. On an unrelated note, I never knew until today how overpaid Johnny Damon was, but this needs to be adressed and he's being shopped I know, but the odds of finding takers don't seem promising at 8 mill.

Another reason, given the choice between the two, that I'd take Williamson over Kim is because the latter has the propensity of becoming a batting practice pitcher every time he goes to the Bronx. Couple that with Williamson's by and large impressive post-season performance, I keep Willy. But if you can keep both talented hurlers, you do it.

p.s. Yeah, yeah, I know... wrong thread

Kim's off-field problems were nothing compared to his on-field problems, which included having his right arm put through Grady Little's wringer, i.e.: pitching 5 days in a row, throwing relief in between starts, warming up in practically every game - things no other pitcher in the majors (or the minors, or amateur leagues, or the f'n Little Leagues) was subjected to. And yet, he still posted good numbers. Put him in a stable role under a competant manager, and he's one of the best pitchers in the American League.

Exactly. Kim is a NYY punching bag dating back to Arizona when as i said, Grady wasn't there to "Scre him up." I like Williamson because he can blow you away as he did in the ALDS and ALCS. He proved himself to me in the post season, after his family problems were over, and this season coming in with momentum he could easily be much better then Kim. If you can keep both then do it. It looks like one has to go though, and my vote is Kim.

No ones arguing that Grady isn't the incompetant ass of incompetant asses, but when I said "what off field problems did Kim have?" I was eluding to the fact that he had none, while Williamson had serious issues. If my wife and newborn were in a position where one or both could die, then my head wouldn't be in the game either, yet Grady still used him as well. In a perfect world both would be in our stable and if one faultered as a #5 the other could step right in. But like I said, one is gonna go and proabably in the very near future and Williamson has expressed a want to stay here, meanwhile Kim's over in Korea getting arrested for hitting cameramen a few months after giving us the finger (which i really no longer hold against him because he was frustrated with himself) but it goes to show he can't handle the big market at this stage of his carreer. He faultered with Arizona in the WS after a stellar season, then came here and played possibly the worst season of his career. That's why I like Williamson over Kim.

most certainly thats the only way to go i mean come on kim is the guy that i saw in person flick off redsox nation as we booed him.. he is worthless to the redsox. i much would rather keep williamson he showed bright spots in times where it may be the hardest to glow while kim has blown his chances in those spots.. what are we going to remeber a regual season win or a basesloaded stop by williamson in the playoffs?

Finally a voice of reason. Kim's attitude, and poor preformance make me say f--k him and Williamson's expression that he loves it here, wants to stay and would like the opportunity to be a #5 makes me want him more. I'd rather have a player who actually wants to be here then a guy who just is here.

I'm sorry, but I wasn't a fan of Kim when he was in Arizona and literally cringed when the sox got him last year. Theo would be crazy if he gets rid of Williamson over Kim and besides, Kim is going to be nothing more than a 5-6 inning pitcher who is a feast or famine pitcher in that if he doesn't strike people out, he'll be giving up at best very loud outs. And besides, for all the wrangling and posturing of what the fan's reaction is going to be towards Manny and Nomar should they still be with the team, it seems as though we have a short memory towards Kim flipping us fans off. Who needs him, because we sure don't !!!! Kim could be just as much of a cancer in the clubhouse as Manny and if we can get rid of both for A-Rod, then all the better !!!!

My last post about this topic in this thread, to avoid the thread-police.

By your logic, we most definately had to keep Walker. In fact, Walker is the player we want over Bret Boone, or Marcus Giles, or Alfonso Soriano (maybe), because he was so damn clutch in the postseason. What will matter more? A homerun in the postseason, or a homerun in the regular season?

The answer is...they matter the same. If you don't win in the regular season, you don't make the postseason. One cannot be certain that Kim would not have had a good postseason, mainly because he didn't get the chance. His middle finger sealed what began with Grady's boneheaded pulling of Kim in Game 1. To say that Williamson is the end-all and be-all of clutch players because he had a few good performances in one postseason would mean the Walker is anointed God, Beckett is the best pitcher in the world, and oh my god, don't even get me started on Alex Gonzalez. That one bobble must mean defensively he's a cripple, with no arms and no legs, not to mention his skull has been bashed in. Oh wait, he won a Gold Glove.

A seem to remember Timlin giving up several homeruns during the pennant race against the Devil Rays. Oooh, Timlin is the Devil Rays' personal punching bag! Homeruns are part hitting, part pitching. If every player that gives up big hits to the Yankees at inopportune times is to be immediately dumped for salary reason, you're looking to dump a lot of people.

Edit:


Thanks for remembering that we booed him for walking a batter and hitting a batter. I shouldn't be mentioning this again, but Ted Williams flipped off the Boston crowd three times in 1950, never apologized, and now he's our legend.

Also...

More exclamation points don't make your post better.

The notion that Theo & Co. are being 'backed into a corner' by the Tejada signing or by an inability to get ARod from Texas is nonsense. Such thinking assumes that the Red Sox have only two options - re-sign Nomar or acquire ARod. I don't believe for a second that Sox management has set such limitations for themselves.

If they can acquire Alex Rodriguez for their price, then they will probably trade Nomar because they believe he will be worth more as trade bait than as a $12 million-plus second baseman.

If they do not get ARod, then they will attempt to sign Nomar to an extension at a salary level that they feel is justified. I believe that salary level dropped from $15 million to $12 million not only because of the 'market correction', but also because of what they saw in 2003 from Nomar in terms of his performance. I believe the team has legitimate concerns about his ability to return to his 1997-99 level of production.

But if the Red Sox have valued Nomar at, say, $13 million tops, and Tellum insists that Nomar will not sign for a penny below $16 million, then the Red Sox management will make an informed decision to either trade Nomar now or let him play out the year and get the draft picks.

I think that Red Sox fans are smart enough to realize that a) the Sox made a reasonable effort to resign Nomar to a $60 million contract and he refused; b ) Theo and company have been both creative and persistent in their efforts to acquire top-notch players as they have overhauled the Red Sox roster; and c) Theo could stretch that $12-16 million a long ways if Nomar walks.

No, these guys are not 'backed into a corner', not by any means. I'm sure they hope they can pull off Plan A, but have Plan B in the wings if the first plan falls through. And if Plan B doesn't work, then I have confidence that they will develop a pretty decent Plan C.

Jim D.

Uhh, comparing Byun-Yun Kim to # 9 ?? How many ballgames did Ted Williams win to Kim ?? Kim is a cancer that is just going to explode and the sox would do well to get rid of him.

Rustjive what are you talking about? A home run in the post season is just as valuable as in the reg. season? Yeah I guess if Aaron Boone had hit that homerun against the Devil Rays in the 10 th inning to beat them early in the season it would have been just as valuable as his against the Red Sox. I agree with you that a player should not be judged soley in his performance in the postseason but that statement makes no sense.

You're missing Rustjive's point by a smidge. The fact is, if you load your roster with "clutch playoff performers" (mythical as they are) who don't perform well for the bulk of the regular season, then the team MISSES THE PLAYOFFS! Very simple concept. There are two points regarding Walker that are relevant:

1) He is a bad defensive + above average offensive 2bman whose total value can be improved upon by a large number of unfortunately unavailable 2bmen

2) His outburst in October is in no way indicative of "clutch" ability. He just got hot at the right time.

Given those factors, it's more important to have a strong team that can win 100 games and MAKE the playoffs than it is to have a team that MIGHT perform well in the playoffs if the blunder their way into them.

Right, Rustjive?

Gammons just said on sports final that Arod is meeting with the players union tomorrow........

will the drama ever end?

Yessss. Thank god.



Missing the point as well. Your example of why Kim was a cancer was his flipping off of the fans. Flipping fans off, as bad as it is, does not necessarily make you a cancer (unless you consider Teddy a cancer for flipping off the fans as well). That is my point.



We can only pray...and eat! Mramm, yum, yum..

Gammons also said that the Tejada signing is going to make this deal harder for the Sox to pull off. According to Gammons, Nomar's value, based on the Tejada contract, is in the $14-15M range right now. This means that whomever he is traded to is going to be unlikely to give up very much for Nomar and this makes the deal a lot less attractive. After all, we all know this is Manny and Nomar for ARod and Player(s) X. According to Gammons, it appears obvious to all involved that Tejada's deal, in driving up Nomar's contract price is correspondingly going to lower his trade value and that Players X won't be the players the Sox originally thought they could get for Nomar.

(GEE, Ya think? If Nomar is going to be traded it seems highly unlikely that the team that takes him is going to want to rent him and the only team that would have any $$ to pay him and is in need of a SS is the Dodgers -- who would low ball the Sox on any offer -- Nomar is a buyer's market)

He also said that the marketing people (I am guessing Werner, possibly Henry) want to do the deal, even if it means trading Nomar for not very much, because ARod will mean more subscribers/cross marketing opportunities/merchandise sales/sellouts/corp. blather etc.

He said the baseball people are opposed to Manny and Nomar for ARod and a bunch of crap because the team on the field will be worse than last year 1-9.

That said -- this trade has always been contingent upon whom we can get for Nomar. If we get a good starting pitcher or a good left fielder, that's fine and maybe it's a good trade. If we get a bucket of balls and free up some $$$ to get someone else, that's not good enough. That assumes we can a) find someone to spend it on and B) that person(s) + ARod will be at least as good as Nomar + Manny. If the marketing people overrule Theo, that's a very bad sign for the way things are being run on Yawkey Way. After all, marketing is why Hicks is in this position in the first place.

Nor do I. But what is plan C? So far I have seen:

Plan A - sign Nomar to an extension

Plan B - trade Manny for ARod and trade Nomar for Player(s) X

Plan C - [crickets]

I suppose Plan C is just do nothing and wait until next winter. Or it could be to trade Nomar any way and keep Manny (if, say, Texas keeps insisting on including cash and a pitcher). That's another option. I guess I'd rather have Nomar this year and have him walk via FA than have to deal Nomar now for cents on the dollar. The Tejada signing makes it pretty clear that the Sox are going to have to be willing to give Nomar $14-15M (at least) if they want to extend him. Moreover, who are the Sox options at SS this year if you deal Nomar and don't acquire ARod?

Theo and Lucchino are creative and they'll come up with something, but their leverage regarding Plans A and B is a lot less today than it was 24 hrs ago when everyone (except perhaps Theo & Co) thought Tejada was going to have to settle for $9-10M. Now they know that Nomar's market price is more than they've offered. With the Nomar price going up, Texas knows that the Sox are possibly more desperate to have ARod through 2010 rather than Nomar for 2004 and ???? thereafter.

I am beginning to think the Rangers want some money or something. I think I have read this exact same column about 1500 times in the last 2 weeks.

A. Rodriguez Talks Continue
Deal With Red Sox May Hinge on Rangers' Cash Requests
By Mark Asher
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 15, 2003; Page D05


NEW ORLEANS, Dec. 14 -- As Day 3 of the annual winter meetings drew to a close, it appeared that a trade involving shortstop Alex Rodriguez and outfielder Manny Ramirez "isn't going to happen" unless the Boston Red Sox also send cash to the Texas Rangers for the 2003 American League most valuable player, a baseball industry source with knowledge of the Rangers' position said Sunday.



"It's all about the money," said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, of the trade that has been fueling hot-stove talk for weeks.

Rodriguez has seven years and $179 million remaining on his 10-year, $252 million contract, the biggest in baseball history, with Texas. Five years and $97.5 million remain on Ramirez's deal with Boston.

A straight-up trade would save owner Tom Hicks $81.5 million. He reportedly wants a $5 million annual subsidy on the Ramirez contract.

Boston has imposed a no-comment mode on the possible trade for Rodriguez. But money remains "among the issues" thwarting a deal, said another industry source familiar with the trade talks.

Jeff Moorad, Ramirez's agent, indicated that talks continue, but not on a day-to-day basis.

"I've had several discussions with [Red Sox General Manager Theo Epstein] and what I expect is they'll continue having those as necessary," he said. "Because Manny doesn't have a no-trade clause in his contract, he's not in position to stop it. At this stage, we're in a wait-and-see mode like most everyone in the industry."

Moorad also tried to smooth Ramirez's return to Fenway as a slugger for the home team. Ramirez expressed misgivings and a desire to play for the New York Yankees after Boston placed him on irrevocable waivers early in the offseason.

"Manny wears his heart on his sleeve," Moorad said. "The fact that he made a statement at one point that he wanted to play at home in New York is water under the bridge. The Yankees had a chance to claim him on waivers. They didn't and that's that.

"At this stage, he's very happy to continue his career in Boston. If he finished his career in Boston, he'll be very happy to do that."

The talk of the Red Sox acquiring Rodriguez upset incumbent shortstop Nomar Garciaparra, who last spring rejected a four-year, $60 million extension through 2008. Boston would trade him in the event it acquires Rodriguez.

Moorad had a theory why the proposed Rodriguez-for-Ramirez trade prompted such extended speculation.

"We're talking about two of the biggest stars in the game," he said. "There's undoubtedly a lot of speculation that goes along with the transaction that they're talking about. I think it's an unusual situation because . . . it became so public at such an early stage."

One Red Sox player, designated hitter David Ortiz, wants Boston to stand pat with Garciaparra and Ramirez. Ortiz, in San Juan for an all-star game between players from Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic, said that the major leagues' top offense would suffer if it trades Ramirez and Garciaparra -- and predicted success if it kept them.

In other news, infielder Carlos Guillen agreed to a one-year, $2.5 million contract with the Seattle Mariners, with another $900,000 in possible performance bonuses; the Detroit Tigers agreed to a two-year, $6 million contract with outfielder Rondell White; and the New York Yankees exercised the option year of General Manager Brian Cashman's contract and extended the deal through 2005.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

The Aubrey Huff mention stemmed from a rumored four-team trade that I believe jack filled us in on. IIRC, if the trade should go down, it would:

• send Manny Ramirez to the Los Angeles Dodgers;

• send Nomar Garciaparra, Darren Dreifort, 2 mil from LA, 5 mil from Boston to Texas;

• send Scott Williamson, Odalis Perez and Edwin Jackson to Tampa Bay;

• send Alex Rodriguez, Aubrey Huff and Marlon Anderson to Boston.

A blockbuster to be sure, but it has some holes. The first and foremost, as another poster (or two or three) pointed out, it leaves LA's rotation barren. Secondly, and I don't believe this has been brought up, although the D'Rays would be giving up a very nice player in Huff (I could be understating that more than a bit), that's really all they would be giving up since it's believed they plan on non-tendering Anderson anyway. Meanwhile, LA is giving up 2/5 of its rotation and a stud pitching prospect; Boston is giving up, as someone pointed out, two players in the 95th percentile of MLB and a decent closer; and Texas is only giving up arguably the best all-around player in MLB today, and some would argue the player who could end his career as the greatest to ever play.

All that said, I'd do the deal in a heartbeat ... but I'm biased that way. However, in the end, I have a feeling that given the affinity Showalter apparently has for Kim, that if another player leaves Boston in this trade, he will end up in the deal going to Texas.

EDIT: for clarification

He was non-tendered. I dont beleive this rumour, didnt the intial post on the subject just suggest it would be a good idea? The legitimacy of it is severely undermined by the fact marlon Anderson is not a devil ray anymore, not to mention the fact that you already pointed out it would leave them with ZERO pitching in LA. And why would Texas want Darren Dreifort?

Hmm ... that's strange, I can't seem to find the transaction where Anderson was non-tendered. Of course, that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I could have misread the intent of the original post, but IIRC jack posted it as a rumor that was originally posted on SoSH by Zona. But as you mentioned, the legitimacy of the rumor is definitely in question for quite a few reasons.

According to the Boston Herald, the trade talks are not only alive, but they have taken on a different form.



Once that deal goes down, the Herald reports the Sox would then turn around and deal Nomar Garciaparra to the Dodgers.



As I've said before, I'd love for the Sox to snare Young (very good glove, improving OBP, good contact), but this seems very remote given how the Ranger really love this kid. At the same time, under the above scenario, the Sox are getting hosed for the return Nomar.

Theo and Trio aren't saying much about the trade talks, but it could get done quickly.



And Manny's agent, Jeff Moorad gives the rumors of revived talks credence.



BTW, the talks have apparently shifted back to the GMs rather than the owners, according to the Herald.

Uhm, if the Herald's report has all the bases covered, what happens to left field: does Arod then play a deep shortstop?

Who said the Herald report had all the bases covered?

FYI, here's the latest from RotoWorld.com:

"With Texas now willing to accept a pitcher instead of cash, the Rangers and Red Sox may be moving closer to an Alex Rodriguez-for-Manny Ramirez swap. No team was more displeased by Miguel Tejada's $72 million contract than the Red Sox. Any chance of them getting Nomar Garciaparra signed for $12 million per year now seems to have disappeared, making the A-Rod deal more likely to happen. As part of the trade, the Rangers would probably get Byung-Hyun Kim, Scott Williamson or whatever the Red Sox could get in return for Williamson from another team. Nomar would probably be sent to the Dodgers (perhaps for Odalis Perez) if an A-Rod deal takes place."

Link:
http://www.rotoworld.com/

I hope something happens soon...this waiting sux!

Home > Sports > Baseball > Red Sox

Ramirez-for-Rodriguez deal gains momentum
By Bob Hohler, Globe Staff, 12/15/2003

NEW ORLEANS -- The Red Sox and Rangers huddled separately yesterday with agents for their respective superstars, Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez, as momentum appeared to build toward a blockbuster trade that also could hasten Nomar Garciaparra's departure from Boston.

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While the teams' owners continued to control the deal's fate -- they could make or break it at any minute -- the private meetings between executives from each club and the agents may underscore the swap's increasing viability. The content of the sessions remained confidential, though one of the participants made clear the landmark trade remains in play.

"It would seem to me that it's an easy deal to kill in terms of speculation," said Ramirez's agent, Jeff Moorad. "Given the fact that hasn't occurred, I assume there's still a chance it could happen."

While Rodriguez and Ramirez anxiously await the outcome, Boston's principal owner, John W. Henry, and his Texas counterpart, Tom Hicks, are expected to renew their negotiations this week amid hopes the matter will be resolved before the end of the month. The teams first began discussing exchanging the $97.5 balance of Ramirez's contract through 2008 with the remaining $179 million on Rodriguez's pact through 2010 about a month ago, with yesterday's sessions involving Moorad and A-Rod's agent, Scott Boras, the latest twist in the saga.

"My sense is that it has been a 50-50 proposition for some time," Moorad said. "The fact that the deal has not gone away or either club has said it's not going to happen leads you to conclude that it's probably still alive at some level. How alive, I'm in no position to say."

The major hitch has been Henry's refusal to give the Rangers -- who would realize an $81.5 million savings in the transaction -- as much as an additional $5 million a year over the next five years. The Sox have indicated they would need Rodriguez to restructure his contract, though the players' union is not expected to endorse an overhaul of the richest pact in baseball history unless A-Rod can show he has received at least equal value after the changes. Moorad said there has been no discussion of Ramirez restructuring his deal.

Even as the process continues to unfold, the Sox have renewed talks aimed at reaching a multiyear extension of Garciaparra's contract. The shortstop's agent, Arn Tellem, was due to arrive last night at the annual winter baseball meetings, and Sox general manager Theo Epstein said he planned to meet with Tellem, though Epstein indicated he did not expect the Sox to be involved in any major development at the meetings other than Saturday's signing of closer Keith Foulke. The meetings end today.

Should the Sox strike a deal with Garciaparra and the Ramirez-for-Rodriguez trade were to occur, the All-Star shortstop still could be traded, with Los Angeles the most likely destination. The Dodgers remain hot for Garciaparra, realizing he will be available only if Rodriguez lands in Boston.

Los Angeles manager Jim Tracy, asked about the team's interest in Garciaparra, strongly indicated the Dodgers covet him, as multiple sources have confirmed. The Dodgers struggled badly to score last season, tallying two or fewer runs in 62 games.

"Without mentioning any names specifically, it's obviously safe to say that what we're looking for is someone to put in the middle of our order, and Nomar Garciaparra is obviously a name that would fit in the middle of somebody's order," Tracy said. "We need a guy in the middle of our order who has proven he is capable of doing that. When you have that guy, everyone around him seems to get better."

At last count, the Sox offered Garciaparra $48 million over four years. They had withdrawn a four-year, $60 million offer he rejected in spring training, and Epstein said he was not concerned that Garciaparra would cite Miguel Tejada's signing by the Orioles last night for six years at $72 million as a baseline for his extension.

"Every signing is significant," Epstein said. "You can't sit there and say the Andy Pettitte signing is significant and the Miguel Tejada isn't significant, but every signing has to be judged against certain circumstances surrounding the signing. Baltimore is a team that has been having a hard time trying to attract players in the past, so that might be a factor."

While Garciaparra awaits word on his future -- Tellem and the Sox are expected to continue talking through the week -- Ramirez was left to ponder his fate.

"At this point, Manny is preparing to report to spring training in Fort Myers," Moorad said. "That being said, there is an element of sitting by his phone wondering if there's going to be a transaction."

The Yankees were the team Ramirez said last season he hoped to join at some point, rather than the Rangers.

"Initially, he had misgivings about the idea of playing for the Rangers," Moorad said. "But as he reflected on it, his position is that he will do whatever is required. His preference would be to remain in Boston and fulfill his contract with the Red Sox at this point."

Ramirez has never been traded and has not found the long wait to determine where he will play next season particularly pleasing.

"It's one thing to be traded, and it's another to be in a potential deal that has been speculated about for nearly a month now," Moorad said. "I'm sure it's a bit unnerving. But on the other hand, it goes with the territory."

Ramirez has little choice but to follow the news from afar.

"Like everyone else, we're in a wait-and-see mode at this point," Moorad said.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...gains_momentum/

Using Jeff Moorad and credence in the same sentence.

Well back on the A-Rod/Manny trade front, A-Rod meeting with the player's union? If it is to get them to look over an extension that gives the Sox flexibility, go for it. He's young enough that a 10 year deal would keep him through his productive years. Not sure of exacts, but that should be about 18 or 19 million per for the Sox... Right around what Nomar is seeking....

Also the sports news person on CBS New York is reporting that his sources say that the Sox and Rangers are very close on doing this deal as of late last night...

If A-Rod gets the extension and makes it feasible for the Sox, trade Nomar for the best package of on the cusp prospects and sign Vladdy at 17 per, it would come out to the same as Manny/Nomar and we'd have two younger and better defensive players, not to mention improved offense to ice the cake...

Now, now DD, I didn't say Moorad has credence, rather he was giving credence.

Does anyone think it is possible that Theo has told Vladdy to wait to sign until after this trade is done?

"...with indications that the Rangers could get not only outfielder Manny Ramirez and cash, but young pitching as well." huh???

is A-rod worth all this trouble? I'm beginning to think we oughtta stand pat...keep Manny & Nomar...

Link:
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/baseball/7495221.htm

Oh yeah he is worth it.

If we can get him for Manny and a pitcher, and sign Vlad as someone recently suggested, it would be so amazing, well so amazing I can not even comprehend it right now...

IMO if there are any players in MLB right now worth locking up to long contracts [7 yrs +] it is AROD and VLAD

Yeah, A-Rod and Vlad are the Holy Grail of position players. To have those guys play behind Pedro, Curt and Keith would translate into wonderful things.

Ticket prices not withstanding, of course!

If the Sox can get Vlad AND A Rod I'd be shocked. A Rod would have to seriously alter his contract which the union wouldn't allow, but if something happened and we could get A Rod and Vlad and give up Nomar for prospects to LA I'd be all for it.

Does anyone have an ESPN Insider account? There's a "Morning Buzz" story about A-Rod rumors.

And I'm just too cheap to pay the couple bucks a month to subscribe.

As a trade for the story, however, I'd be willing to send the first set of 2004 MLB stat projections from Baseball Notebook!

And a player to be named later, of course!

Wow, those are TWO awful deals for the Sox!!!

The Sox give up Manny, Williamson AND a #1 draft choice pitching prospect for the pleasure of paying ARod $25 million a year for years to come?

Then they trade Nomar for, essentially, Orlando Hudson, while giving an AL East rival Odalis Perez?

Shoot me.

The only thing that might make the whole thing more palatable is if the Rangers give us Michael Young for Nomar. But the Hudson/Perez thing simply can't be true.

I don't have ESPN insider....but ESPN insider is not trustworthy or pretty much worthless in our case (in my opinion of course). Remember it is the same site that said the Freddy Garcia for Nixon rumors were back.....ugh what a joke. Also, this is Boston...I really feel everything that is out there is pretty much covered.....

I hope for this to end soon.........
Arod meets with the union today, Hart said he was leaving New Orleans by 3:30 today (maybe that was from an mlb.com article?)....Theo said he'd be leaving tonight, possibly early Tuesday at the latest. Arn Tellem arrived last night in New Orleans and Theo was supposed to meet with him.

Ugh I don't know how much more of the rumors I can take...ok back to studying for a final......

On again, off again, on again....

Here's an exerpt from today's Star-Telegram.com: "Major league sources said the potential deal was very much alive and could be resolved at the end of the meetings or shortly afterward. The Rangers have made it clear that they will only trade Rodriguez if they can improve their pitching, and they eagerly want a young pitcher to be included."

Here's the link for the complete article:
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/baseball/7495221.htm

I hope it's resolved soon...

Well apparently the market for Nomar in LA may not be affected by the White Sox trading Magglio (from Chicago Sun-Times)...

How bout Nomar for Magglio ; )

One thing's for sure, if this thing goes through:

Williamson to St. Louis for Marquis
Nomore to LA for O. Perez
Manny & Marquis to Texas for A-Rod
O. Perez to Toronto for O. Hudson (next great 2B, IMHO)
or O. Perez to somewhere else for a LF
(and it's approved by the commish's office)

3 things will be certain:
1) This will be the biggest trade in the history of sports - any way you look at it.
2) This will be the defining moment for the Red Sox franchise for the next decade or more.
3) Alex Rodriguez will break every one of Babe Ruth's records in a Red Sox uniform, and hit his 800th HR as a member of the Red Sox.

My reading based on what I've seen this morning is this deal
will probably be done quickly--if ARod gets his contract reshuffling
approved by the Players Association.

It looks like Henry got Hicks' message about pitching--and the Sox will provide
some pitching in lieu of paying part of Manny's contract (probably a Hicks' ploy
to get some pitching--as he clearly hinted).

The team that gets Nomar will be lucky--because they won't have to give up
equal value for him. That's because Boston has to save money on this end of the deal--lots of money--since they are gaining salary exchanging Manny for ARod.
That's where the added pitcher comes in--which will effectively reduce ARod's salary.
So, it's Manny plus a Kim or Williamson for ARod--which is pretty even up salary-
wise.
And then the net money saved in the Nomar deal (the Dodgers are going to make out like bandits) will go to filling 2B and LF.

And I still say-if the Sox get ARod- look for Alomar to jump at a short term
deal with incentives to play 2nd base.

Yeah, if A-Rod's meeting with the Player's Association, it most likely means that Henry and Hick's have reached an agreement.

Or not. ;-)

I totally agree. I can't believe Theo would be the architect of such deals. And I certainly believe Nomar is worth a helluva lot more than Orlando Hudson ... heck, I'd rather move Nomar to second for 2004 and reach for the brass ring and take the draft picks after he leaves than just give him away like that.

Jim D.

IMO if the Sox get Young from Tex with A Rod (which is doubtful but hey whoknows with this soap opera) then we make out even better then LA because LA has Nomar for 1 year then must give him a pretty large contract to keep him. The Sox on the other hand, dump Kim's salary and Manny for A Rod which evens Manny/A Rod deal money wise and the 11 mill off Nomar's deal minus what we get in return will still net us 9-10 mill in savings to grab someone to fill 2b and LF. Aubry Huff can be had for somewhere around 2-3 mill per I think which leaves 7-9 mill left to spend on a 2b and bench help. If the Sox get Young in the deal as well then we have about 5-8 mill (depending on Young's contract which I've heard is very reasonable) to spend some on the bench and still be under the luxury tax. I don't like the idea of this trade apparently hinging on the union because they are stubborn, but the Sox could easily spin the idea of less contract value with added value for A Rod in endorsments which he is guarenteed to have in Boston. Texas gets the pitching they want and a very good (top 5) hitter in Manny. It looks like it works on all sides, but this wouldnt be the only deal going because:
Manny/Kim for A Rod means
Nomar for Odalis? in a Boston LA deal
then could bring
Huff to Boston since TB can't afford to keep him on their team from what I've heard
and if you include Young in the deal then your looking at strictly signing bench players to platoon which could bring Alomar at the right price, maybe even Daubach back over here or someone else.

This would easily be the biggest deal in sports history and since every one (MLB, Tex, Sox sponsors and probably Sox orginization) want it to happen I'd be shocked if it didn't. I don't see it happening today though but definitely within a week we'll have an answer one way or the other IMO.

Did you seriously just mention Daubach's name as a regular player on our team? We've got Millar and Ortiz at 1B anyway....Not funny.

I would love to keep Nomar and shift him to 2nd and turn the deal back into strictly Tex/Bos but it is highly unlikely to happen. Nomar would be angry at not getting an extention which coulf affect his play even more, and the Sox would be over the luxury tax i think. Even if Kim is included we still have no LF *cough*Aubry Huff*cough* If we can just find an affordable LF *cough*Aubry Huff*cough* then we'd be all set *cough*Aubry Huff*cough* I think TB has some guy we could trade for and only give prospects or maybe even Kabe Kapler for but I can't think of his name *cough*Aubry Huff*cough* I'll try to remember then post his name.

I don't want Daubach I was just naming players I know are still FA that are cheap. I don't want Alomar either because he is sliding downhill fast IMO I just don't know who's out there for bench players.

Aside from the ARod/Manny/Nomar deals, which could net us a second baseman. A really big piece of the puzzle is going to be, who is nontendered. Am I correct, that teams have until December 20th to offer contracts/arbitration to arbitration eligible players?

Barring a trade for a second baseman, I don't see the opening at second base being filled, until after December 20th.

I'm a little confused here. Why would St. Louis trade Marquis for Williamson? They are looking for young starting pitching. If Texas is going to back off their "requirement" of the Sox paying 5 mill per for Manny, why would they take on Kim? Kim is surely going to be in the 4-6 mill per range for a starter. Texas is looking to trim payroll and acquire low budget, young pitching. I.E another prospect from down on the farm. Kim and Williamson will more than likely be dealt seperatley because of what they'll each get in arbitration. They may keep Williamson in order to have some competition for Arroyo at the 5th starter spot. I think Kim is gone regardless, not sure he can handle the Sox spotlight especially after his antics last season. They should keep Odalis Perez and ship Williamson or Kim out for a second baseman.

Pedro
Schill
Lowe
Perez
Wake

Not bad.