Yeah, we save money through the deal, if we can improve over Damon (who is average offensively) good riddance. The Phillies thing aint happenin.

I'd be glad to see damon's overinflated $8m contract go somewhere else

he doesn't have to leave, but someone else might have to go, and trot has been a name thats been thrown around quite a bit.

The only Trot rumor I heard was Seattle wanting him for Freddy Garcia, and there's no way in hell that's going to happen. Phillies rumor is supposedly not real.

From what I heard, theyre really interested in keepin Trot, but if he wants an exorbinant salary, well he cant hit lefties, so he can kiss his ass goodbye. Trot is still my favorite player though.

Here we go:
The A-Rod for Manny deal is done. Now we have to ask ourselves, is giving up 2 .300+ AVG, 25+ HR, 100+ RBI men for 1 a good idea? Of course, this logic depends on who we get for LF and 2B. But by all reasonable accounts, there are virtually no 2B's out there and the market for a LF (as it fits the Red Sox budget) is not that good. Although adding the best player in the game to our team is great, I can't help but think that this might be too much of a Yankee-type move.

Trot's the Comeback Kid

I was thinking of this on the way home from work tonight. I don't, honestly, worry about 2b too bad. as long as we get a big upgrade in defense, we should be fine for one simple reason- Todd Walker was DRASTICALLY overrated offensively last season. Everything you read about him says "great bat- poor glove." simply put, this isnt true at all.




the only time his SLG penetrated .500 land was his half season in Colorado. Even this past season he was a meager .428, and that was in Fenway Park and hitting in front of Nomar and Manny. Basically, he was the "best of the rest" last year with a bat, as in he wasnt Boone/ Soriano/ Mike Young. He was fourth or worse in every offensive category save batting avg and rbis, both things that were at least a little skewed by being on the greatest hitting team (maybe?) of all time. Meanwhle, Adam Kennedy and Orlando Hudson (just for comparison) hovered just below him with much better defense. Something tells me that a change of scenery that includes 300, ahem, feet down the left field line and ARod (i know, it aint done yet) and Ortiz and X in LF hitting around them would cause KEnnedy or Hudson or whomever our 2B is to inch towards Walker-like numbers. Their RBIs wont be as much becasue they probably wont hit in the 2 hole, but you get my drift. Well spens SO MUCH less money, and itll actually be a much better situation, IMO.


edit- im sorry the code isnt perfect (or was it me? it was probably me) but i cant get it. no worries, its pretty self explanatory

When A-Rod hits .315 with 60 HR and knocks in 170 in a year or two will you still tell me it was a bad trade

Johnthebaptist, welcome to the Todd Walker's Horrendously overrated club, Im one of the charter members over here. The only key is that you have to understand statistics are more important than what you think you see

Ah young grasshopper, but you forget Defense, AROD is a very large defenisve improvement over Nomar. Arod had the best FPCG of any shortstop in 2003 and was about 9th in ZR, while Nomar is 14th in both categorues. In 2002 AROD was 1st in ZR and Nomar was 20th. Manny is dead last in ZR for left fielders, by so much that Fenway Park's influence cant even be used as an excuse.

170 RBI? As extremely unlikely as that is, that's still about 40 RBI short of a subpar Manny-Nomar output. In reality, there is a very small chance that A-Rod and the likely LF (and by all reports so far will not be a marquee player) would produce the numbers that Manny and Nomar would. While A-Rod will feast on Fenway, let's not get out of control here.

According to my source:
Dam just once I would like to say that.
I need a source, not necessarily sports but sports would be great “According to my source George Stienbrenner is throwing ashtrays around his office and ranting the Nixon got jobbed”
! It could be politics, “according to my source GWBush was late to the press conference due to the zipper on his sponge bob pajamas getting stuck” Or it could be popular culture/entertainment “according to my source in Hollywood – someone/anyone is getting a breast reduction” Maybe current events “according to my source California will elect Arnold Swartzenegger governor” Opps sorry went to far.
I am looking for a source and all applications will get somewhat serious consideration.

Goldangit, can we PLEASE stop equating ARod's production with Manny's PLUS Nomar's? It's the stupidest recurring theme in all of the discussions surrounding the ubertrade. ARod cannot, will not, and does not have to replace the production of both players. He simply has to be ARod. If he does that, he's outproducing either Manny or Nomar offensively, outproducing Nomar defensively, and making the club younger in the process.

The other shoe dropping is the key here...SOMEONE will play LF. That someone (Carlos Lee, Aubrey Huff, etc) will combine with ARod to outproduce Manny and Nomar. It's really simple.

Upgrading 2B over Todd Walker in the process is gravy...and I believe Theo will make that happen as well (Rich Aurilia, anyone?).

another Arod article

Teams talk about A-Rod, Ramirez trade
By Jimmy Golen, AP Sports Writer, 12/16/2003

NEW ORLEANS -- The blockbuster trade that would send AL MVP Alex Rodriguez to Boston for Manny Ramirez is in the hands of the teams' owners.

"There's dialogue ongoing between the parties, but really we're not privy to any of it," Rodriguez's agent, Scott Boras, said Monday as baseball's winter meetings wrapped up. "This is definitely an owners' situation."

The Red Sox and Rangers have been discussing a trade of the sports' only $20 million men for more than a week. Talks bogged down over the sheer magnitude of the money involved -- more than $300 million remaining on the two contracts -- and the Rangers' demand that Boston pay up to $5 million a year for the next six years, in addition to more than $179 million due Rodriguez.

Boston has said it will not chip in a substantial amount toward Ramirez's salary; even without it, the Rangers would already save about $81 million in the deal. Talk has reportedly focused on whether the Red Sox would include another player in lieu of cash.

Rangers owner Tom Hicks told The Dallas Morning News on Monday that negotiations were "at a sensitive time."

"We'll know in the next few days how this is going to come out," he told the newspaper. "Both teams were concerned a week ago as this thing got way too much momentum in the media for where we were all at. We agreed we'd renew conversations after the winter meetings, and we started that process today."

Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein declined to comment on the negotiations, and Boston president Larry Lucchino has said the team was going into "radio silence" on the talks until they conclude, one way or the other.

Red Sox owner John Henry has not responded to an e-mail seeking comment. Epstein did say before returning to Boston on Monday that he did not expect any announcements.

"If I were a betting man, I'd say there's nothing major in our future," he said. "We have a real strong club right now if we just fill in to complement what we have."

If the owners are able to work something out, the Red Sox are expected to trade shortstop Nomar Garciaparra. Epstein has said the team's first choice was to sign Garciaparra to a long-term deal "that makes sense for both sides."

Garciaparra turned down a four-year, $60 million offer last spring, looking for a longer and richer deal. That appeared to be a mistake in a declining market, but on Sunday former AL MVP Miguel Tejada signed a six-year, $72 million deal with Baltimore that raised doubts about whether the market was declining after all.

Garciaparra's agent, Arn Tellem, arrived in New Orleans late in the meetings and had preliminary discussions with Epstein. Although Tellem has said the A-Rod talks are a "slap in the face" of his client, Epstein said he expects no hard feeling when the team reports to spring training.

"It's a natural part of the offseason to have all kinds of speculation out there. It's what keeps everyone in business," Epstein said. "The status quo is the most likely scenario."

The most likely destination for Garciaparra, if he is traded, would be Los Angeles. Dodgers manager Jim Tracy wouldn't confirm his team was interested except to say, "We're looking for somebody to fit in the middle of our order.

"Nomar Garciaparra ... is a name that would fit in the middle of somebody's order," he said. "That's what we're looking for."

But it all depends on whether Hicks and Henry can work out the money. Then, Rodriguez has to waive the no-trade clause in his contract.

Rangers general manager John Hart has said he wanted the talks to conclude -- one way or the other -- by the end of the winter meetings so he could resume building his team. But Rodriguez will not put a deadline on the talks.

"You want your clients happy, and you want them achieving their goals," Boras said. "One of his goals is to win."

Here we go:

Let's hash, hash, hash, hash some more, then rehash it. First, your arguments about statistics. .300 BA guys have already been proven to be highly overrated. Jim Rice once said: "A great hitter is not a .300 hitter. To me, that hitter makes 7 outs every 10 times he comes up to bat, and that is not a good hitter." (It was on NESN, yeah.) 39 guys hit .300 or over. 25 guys .301 or over. 34 guys hit .302 or over. 48 guys hit .296 or over. The difference between .296 and .301 (Nomar): About 3 hits over the course of a season. Go down to .296 and you include guys like Kenny Lofton, and Geoff Jenkins (wait...he popped up in trade rumors!)

By placing your 'bar' at 25 homeruns, you are, in essence, saying that Nomar hit around 25 homeruns, which is not tons of power. Those who hit 28 (what Nomar hit) homeruns number 35. I'm not going to bother to figure it out, but just by looking at it, Jay Payton did both the .300 (.302) average AND the 28 (28) homeruns. Wait...he popped up in rumors too!

100 RBIs. 37 at 100+. Nomar hit 105. The common thread in all that is Nomar is now in the bottom rung of the upper echelon of players. And right in front of my eyes, Aubrey Huff: .311, 34 HR, 107 RBIs. To say that these players don't exist or 'don't fit the Red Sox budget' is incorrect. Not to mention the stats used are not a good indicator of offensive performance. Manny is a great offensive player, Nomar is very good, but only above average for a corner outfielder.

You state in a later post that if ARod hits 170 RBI, that's still 40 short of Manny + Nomar. If the Red Sox can't find an outfielder that can produce 40 RBIs, then they don't deserve to win the World Series. There were 231 players who hit 40 RBIs or more last year, out of roughly 700 who hit at least 1. Even freaking Tony Clark hit 43.

But of course, these stats don't mean anything, because all they do is state past performance, and we are unable to extrapolate anything from them. Anyone can put up a better defense of Manny and Nomar, but you didn't.

*******

And now, Rustjive the Magician will explain why everything is being rehashed, using a fun allegory that's tummy-tickling enjoyment for the whole family!

You're driving along, with your friend, oh, let's name him Theo, and you guys are house shopping. More specifically, Theo is. He's named his house "Manny + Nomar" and he tells you nothing, just that he's house shopping. You're looking out from the car, and you see that "Manny + Nomar" looks great from the outside, incredibly enormously gigantic. Absolutely fantastic. Theo gets in the car, and we drive to, let's make this up on the spot...oh...Texas!

So you're now in Texas, and getting near the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and you see this gigantic house, though not quite as big as "Manny + Nomar". You look at the mailbox and it says: "Alex Rodriguez". The house is nice looking sure, and almost as good as "Manny + Nomar", but not quite. Theo gets out of the car to take a look. He knocks on the door, and he goes inside. Quite some time passes, he comes out, and he says: "I've decided to buy the house! But first, I have to sell 'Manny + Nomar'!"

And you're like: "Whoa whoa...wait a minute here. 'Manny + Nomar' is one great looking house. Now you're just shopping like your neighbors the Yankees. Always moving into new houses, thinking that they're bigger and better. Always spending tons of money too. How will you be able to replace the fact that 'Manny + Nomar' is twice the house that 'Alex Rodriguez' is? Not to mention you've lived in 'Manny + Nomar' for so long, and it's never given you any problems."

Theo responds: "You know nothing," and promptly calls back home to sell "Manny + Nomar". Then he whips out the checkbook and writes a check for "Alex Rodriguez".

This is the end of story time!

Now, at this point, you're saying to yourself, what am I missing? "Manny + Nomar" was a bigger house, and yet, Theo bought "Alex Rodriguez" so quickly? And it's nagging at you. Oh yes it is.

The problem?

You don't know jack sh*t about either of the houses. Theo hasn't lived in "Alex Rodriguez" his whole life and he still knows more about it than you. And you don't know jack sh*t about "Manny + Nomar" because you don't work with it on a daily basis, Theo does.

Do we as fans honestly just sit here and think: "Gee, is that Epstein kid dumb. It's so blatanty obvious that Manny and Nomar are better than one Alex Rodriguez and whatever else we get. And he's still trading. Goddamnit that Epstein kid oughta be kicked out of the state. Gee."

Theo is not retarded. Theo is not dumb. Theo knows what he's doing. So while we sit here and speculate that Theo doesn't have a replacement lined up, and that Theo can't get enough production to out of ARod and Warm Body, screw us. YES HE DOES AND YES HE CAN, DAMMIT.

*** End diatribe. ***

In no way is the above to be construed as me being bitter/hating on RSNN/hating of idle speculation. But to speak without thinking about what one is missing is completely ignorant. I don't claim to be less ignorant than the rest of the posters, and yes, I often speak without considering Theo's position, but once in a while all of us have to step back and say: "Theo knows something we don't."

Edit: For the sake of doing so.

I can't take this any longer. I really just want to know either way. I will deal with whatever way it goes and I am sure that Theo and the boys know what they are doing.....well, I hope so.

Oh rustjive. nice post man. really, really good stuff.

I second that....post was great. now if anyone else complains I'm just going to direct them to your post....

I just don't understand how people can think Theo is nuts....let him do his thing. There are a lot of things going on that we do not know.......so just trust Theo! Go read Rustjive's post again.....its good stuff.

ugh I can't wait till an official announcement to end this..........

Maz: Bet on Arod



and one more article:
Arod likely a BoSox reality any day now



the article gives all the signs...1 being:


something else of importance:



how I find these articles: Sox Google Search

ok enough articles tonight.....DD says its happening and well it just seems like this is pretty much in the bag...no turning back now.

``If I was a betting man, I'd say there's no major move in our future,'' Epstein said.

A 100% liar?

I guess he was stealing Arods line of "If I was a betting man I'd bet I'd be in a Rangers uniform next year"...ok not exact quotes....but um I don't know. Maybe that was just to quiet the media.........

Gasbag keeps alluding to the fact that Todd Walker, in a way, was something of a catalyst for the deal gaining an air of inevitability, with the fact that hed take a 2 year offer from Texas once the deal went thru. Anyway, after all he did in the playoffs for us, even though i know he needs to be gone and replaced, he really seemed like a nice enough guy, and though i know this was a business deal for him, (dont come at me that im suggesting walkers trying to help the sox by signing with texas)...im gonna be pulling for him, put it that way. He seemed like he loved being here, and for that I will always be a Todd Walker fan, if not a Todd Walker advocate for a 2B job on my team. Know what I mean?

WARNING: Not a meaningful, stats-injected, Socrates-esque post.

If you stretched all the letters posted so far in this thread end-to-end in 10-point type, it would stretch around the world 3.6 times.

Seriously, though, this is a lot of fun. And we are lucky to even be talking about getting the best player of our generation. It's just really hard to speculate any more ... this thread has redefined the art of hot stove speculation. All the speculation has been spectacled, bespectacled, and rebespectacled to death.

What will we all do once the deal goes down? I have to believe we'll find something to speculate about!

Ditto....Everything old is new again especially in RS Nation.

MALC, ill do you one better- i bet idf we stood every player we included in different scenarios, they reach to moon and back 5.92 times.

Nope, 100% too shrewd to let the outside world see all his cards!

RUSTJIVE, helluva post, thanks for articulating what most of us feel around here.

Well, I'm going to speculate on all sorts of things post-ARod. F'r'instance...

Will Naehring Nirvana ever become a normal poster again?

Will OCJ get so excited about something someday that he injures himself typing?

Will I have to eat major crow if the Sox sign Jose Guillen?

Will any of the newbies here ever gain membership to SoSH?

So many things to ponder...

Ok I lied...I'm going to add one more article...I promise this is it though!

Edes: Replacement Possibilities

Replacement possibilities
Team taking steps to fill big shoes
By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff, 12/16/2003

NEW ORLEANS -- So, how do the Sox justify losing two superstars, Nomar Garciaparra and Manny Ramirez, while gaining just one, Alex Rodriguez, in return?

Not to worry, said one major-league executive who has spoken with Sox officials. After the primary components have all been moved, Rodriguez to Boston, Ramirez to Texas, and Garciaparra most likely to the Dodgers, the Sox will set into motion a plan in which they will acquire a first-line outfielder who should help compensate for the loss of Ramirez, who for nearly a decade has been one of baseball's most productive righthanded hitters.

The Sox were not tipping their hand as to who that outfielder would be. Geoff Jenkins? The Milwaukee Brewers intend to re-sign him. Vladimir Guerrero, the best big bat on the free agent market? In terms of spending, the Sox are not yet in the same stratosphere as the luxury tax-busting Yankees, who will be flirting with a payroll headed toward the $200 million range, while the Sox try to stay under $120.5 million. For that reason, it would seem the Sox would not be in the market for some of the other high-priced outfielders known to be on the market, like Magglio Ordonez of the White Sox or Richard Hidalgo of the Astros.

The Red Sox have surplus pitching they could use in a deal, which is why one general manager speculated that perhaps the Sox might go after Cardinals center fielder Jim Edmonds. "The Cardinals have interest in both Scott Williamson and B.K. Kim," the GM said. "They might even be willing to take back [Johnny] Damon, too, because he's making less money than Edmonds, who could play center field for Boston while the Sox sign a righthanded bat like Reggie Sanders to play left field."

Another possibility could involve Cincinnati, the GM said, which might part with a young slugger like Adam Dunn or Austin Kearns if the Sox were willing to pick up the contract of pitcher Danny Graves, who can both start and relieve. The Reds might take Williamson or Kim in return, the GM suggested.

If the White Sox can't move Ordonez, they might be willing to part with a Carlos Lee, whose on-base percentage rose considerably last season as he cut down on his strikeouts and increased his walks. The A's, who need a closer after losing Keith Foulke to the Sox, are said to have interest in Kim, if the Sox would consider taking Jermaine Dye, a productive hitter before being slowed by injuries the last two seasons.

Sox GM Theo Epstein acknowledged yesterday the Sox would be willing to move Williamson in the right deal.

"If we can get Scott to a better situation as a starter or a closer and it works out for our club, that's something we'd be interested in doing," Epstein said.

Caspir, with all due respect, you forgot one major player in all of this ... Theo, and he gets my vote. He's the only one who has bared the glare of the spotlight without so much as even squinting his eyes. He has stood head-and-shoulders above everyone in terms of how he has handled the media, saying the right things at the right time, knowing when to keep his mouth shut and generally doing the job of a GM well beyond his years. Manny meanwhile is sitting in his Florida home playing video games and not having to face the fire squad letting Moorad do all of his dirty work ... that's why you haven't heard from the Red Sox LF.

How the ###### do I get membership into that thing anyway?

You have to be recommended by a "respected" member of SoSH.

I sure hope so! I've never ever wanted a player just for his throwing arm but for some dumb reason I am just hoping this guy is bought by us. Wouldn't it be nice to never have to worry about a player rounding a base ever again? Atleast when the ball is near Guillen. Ah well, guess its all a pipe dream.

Where might I find one of those? And would they be willing to take up a chairty case like myself? Or am I supposed to wait and when I've been proven worthy suddenly men in black hoods appear at my door and take me to to a sacred induction ritual?

You can only get in via a trade. Maybe a blockbuster deal for one of their top posters in return for one of the barstaff and a couple of young prospects?

Have you seen "Eyes Wide Shut?" There ya go ... oh, and you have to sacrifice a virgin. If you are said virgin, even better.

If its anythin like Eyes Wide Shut, I'm out, one of my goals in life is to never be trapped in some nightmare Kubrikesque scenarios. You belong to SOSH Pozos?

This is going to sound strange, but yes and no.

I applied and was accepted before they instituted the rule requiring a reference. However, I encountered the same problem that Schilling had, which was even though I was logged in I couldn't post. I've sent a few messages to the site administrators, but no one believes me. Funny how they believed Schilling though. The whole thing kind of turned me off, so I refused to pursue it further. It's just not worth the headache to try to "prove my worth" to a select few who are really no better than anyone else here at this board. I have more important things to do than to haggle over whether I am or am not an approved member of a discussion board. So, I am quite content here at the "Penal Colony," as those at SoSH refer to us here at RSN.

(Wow, after rereading that post, I sound a tad bitter. But, please do not misconstrue. SoSH is a high quality forum and I absolutely love to read the thoughtful discussions -- in particular the posts of Maalox, Eric Van and a few others, not to mention the game threads. Some of those game threads were so funny last year that tears were running down my face and I couldn't breathe. OK, anyone have a hankerchief so I can wipe my nose? )

Not to mention that RSN is still "under the radar" to the masses. ( I think atleast)

I love this place. The moderators are pretty cool and not so uptight, yet fair, about threads and stuff.

____________________________________________________________________




We really need a right an extra right handed bat. Sanders would be ideal but I don't get the reasoning for Edmonds. Who would lead off for us then? Damon does that better than anyone on the team. Defensively the only upgrade would be the throwing arm. Of course i'm a fan of throwing arms soo hmm...

I would soil myself if we could turn Williamson/Damon into Sanders/Edmonds. Oh Lord what an outfield that would be! Please please please please.

ESPN reported Monday night that Sanders signed with the Cardinals.

Unfortunately, As Pozos pointed out in a different thread, Sanders signed with the Cards on monday

So I guess the fact that Im really Sports Illustrated's Peter King is under wraps for now.

Reggie Sanders and Jose Guillen are ideal, but Jim Edmonds isn't?

My head is about to explode.

Guillen sucks, Sanders is mediocre at best and injury-prone. Jim Edmonds is one of the best-hitting OFs in MLB.

But either way, I want Austin Kearns. If we get Austin Kearns for Scott Williamson (or anyone not named Pedro or Alex) I will never doubt Theo Epstein again. It will never happen, but I'm allowed to dream, at least at 4:42 a.m.

That may be true, but he is one of them darned califnornia boys that plays hard every day but doesnt like the media, kinda like Nomah, so hes not worth jack.

Yes, but who has the better throwing arm? Hmm? So hah!

Ok, ok. Just let me wander around in my dream land please? I know Edmonds is better but Damon is an above average lead off hitter and I when I weigh the pros and cons in my mind, Damon is just where he should be.

There are some things that jump out at me in Edes' article that are important.

Odalis Perez is no longer being mentioned. Prized prospect Greg Miller and perhaps another prospect have been discussed; however, one or both of them could be headed to Texas to complete the ARod deal.

This would be a huge mistake, IMO. Essentially, under this scenario, the Sox would be trading both Manny and Nomar for ARod. But, I'll withhold my criticism until the deal is completed, simply because we don't know.

There are indications there is another team involved in the trade discussions for Nomar other than LA and Anaheim.

I have to wonder if this might have something to do with that "front-line outfielder" to replace Manny?

"Industry sources close to the negotiations said that the Sox might offer Rodriguez a contract extension in exchange for Rodriguez voiding at least the last two years of his contract, in which he is due to be paid $27 million a year. Rodriguez actually has the right to void the last three years in exchange for free agency, but it is unlikely he would agree to do so, given that the Sox would have had to pay Ramirez through the 2008 season. He is due to be paid $27 million each in 2009 and 2010, but there is speculation that he might agree to a one- or two-year extension that would result in a larger total payout, but reduce the average annual value of those last two seasons."

Edes quoted a source who speculated that if the Sox offered an extension worth $60 million, then that might satisfy the union.

No matter which side of the fence you might be sitting on regarding this deal, you have to admit that all facets of this have been extremely fascinating. As muggsey's bunt said the other day, someone is going to write a book about this deal some day.

Sox owner John Henry posted this over on SoSH in the Manny-for-ARod thread (thought some might be interested):

Yea, that wouldbe a boneheaded move for sure. If Greg Miller or Edwin Jackson go anywhere at all, it better be to the Sox. Just passing along a prospect of that caliber is retarded, to say the least.

"A-Rod's contract possibilites" should be a college course somewhere. That thing gives me a headache even though its interesting. Restructuring the last three years for a lower avg. payout is a pretty good idea but what would be be? 23 million? Yeesh, still mega bucks. Wonder what the market will be like then.

A-Rod for Manny + ????
Nomar for ???????
??? for ????
The variables make me excited and nervous. It could be another month till we see
the end of A-Rod for Manny dominoes stop falling. Till then, in Theo we trust.

I think Damon's a very good, very underrated player. But if you can get a CF who plays quality defense and had a higher slugging percentage than Manny Ramirez, you worry about who hits leadoff later.