Stop destroying me! Ahhhhh!

Still gonna stick with my guns on this one. If we can get Edmonds from a Nomar switch-a-roo, that would sit better with me.

From Rotoworld:


Nomar Garciaparra's agent, Arn Tellem, flew back to California yesterday after a meeting with the Red Sox convinced him that the team had chosen to consummate a deal for Alex Rodriguez.
It's expected that Nomar will go to the Dodgers if (or when) the A-Rod deal gets done. According to the Boston Globe, the Red Sox probably won't get Odalis Perez in the trade. Instead, they'll acquire top pitching prospect Greg Miller and perhaps another young arm or two. Miller may then get sent to the Rangers in the A-Rod deal. Also according to the Globe, the Sox already have a deal lined up for a quality left fielder to replace Manny Ramirez. It's unclear who the player is, but Richard Hidalgo, Magglio Ordonez and Geoff Jenkins are among the possibilities. Also mentioned were Adam Dunn and Austin Kearns, either of whom might be able to be had by a team willing to take Danny Graves'contract. Source: Boston Globe

How come ESPN radio is saying that the deal is off, and commented that Theo himself said that the trade was not gonna happen???

ESPN this morning reported it would, then in my car on the way to work I heard that Theo says the deal is a no go....

Anyone here this??

Who said it on espn radio?

I think that was ESPN radio playing clips of previous discussions, showing how its gone back and forth for so lonnnnnnngggggg.......


The A-Rod deal could become offical the same day The Return of King opens...what a great day!!! Kind of ironic though...A-Rod to Boston...Return of The King...although he was never here, but the deal was suppose to be dead....then it came roaring back!!!

ESPN repeated Theo's "If I were a betting man ... no major deals" line.

JD

Ohhh, makes sense...I just caught the end of it so that could have been it.

I just like that we are getting him [and he wears #3, like someone else we lost a while ago] Could be a good sign, ....

The 'Penal Colony', huh? That's pretty funny.

Maybe we should rename the board the 'Botany Bay' ...

JD

Right on the money. You saved me the trouble of typing that out myself, as there seem to be a lot of people hear trying to compare both manny and nomar to a-rod when I've been telling people for a week that a-rod + LF need to outweigh the production, not just a-rod. Even if a-rod + LF only equal the production of manny+nomar we're still better defensively at 2 positions which in and of itself will win more games.

Words for RSN: Theo is smarter than all of us, give the man his credit, don't start a bitch session about the moves of a man you were calling a genius 2 months ago going into game 7 of the ALCS.

I know that you kone, NJFan, but to the uniformed, Babe Ruth never wore a number while a member of the Red Sox. Baseball numbers were not introduced until 1923. Ruth was given number three because he batted third in the Yankee order.

Jim Devlin - As a member of both boards, does that make me a pen(is)?

Man add me to the Austin Kearns or Adam Dunn band wagon.

If we got either of them two or Maggs I would die.

If we got any of the three we would replace Manny's Defense *ha* and Offense
And get younger...and cheaper

Edmonds, is not that interesting to me unless we do a seperate trade for that...
Edmonds Nixon and Kearns in the outfield neone?

I would die....

I think our line-up will be great next year no matter what happens.

A-rod coming to Boston? Great!
Nomar leaving? damn!
Kearns or Dunn or Maggs coming to Boston? Where do I sign!

Please no Edmonds, he is injuried and old.

According to ESPN Radio just now (9:12 am), Gasbag sez the deal IS gonna get done...framework in place...hammering out he 'fine' details...might take a day or 2...

I just hear it with my own ears!

So Gasbag says "yes", and Theo says "I don't think so".

Who ya gonna believe?

When did ya hear this? Source????

On ESPN radio (www.espnradio.com) the Mike & Mike show repeated Theo's comment this morning that he (Theo) didn't think the deal would go through (I don't have Theo's direct quote).

You can go to the site and listen via the Net - they repeat Theo's quote every half hour or so.

I figured they'd be little salary (did I say little?)
in return for Nomar--that's where the money is saved.
The less the better.

That gives them more money to fill the holes in LF and 2B,
either with non tendered FAs or trades--using Kim or Williamson as bait.

Freeing up money in a trade these days is sometimes much more
important than getting "fair value" for an expensive player--since
the money can be used in the FA market to restore that value.
You have to look at the whole picture--not just an isolated trade.

The trick is to find a team willing to take on a lot of salary--like the Dodgers.

Rotoworld is also the guy (Matt Pouliout), who said Bobby Hill was the next great 2B.

Ha.
Henry sounds very upbeat.
Wonder why.

Any season tickets left?

You are correct about Babe Ruth, but uniform numbers are a little later than 1923. There were a couple of short-lived experiments--numbers on sleeves by Cleveland, 1916, for example--but it wasn't until 1929 that two clubs--Yankees and Indians--opened the season with numbers on the backs of their uniforms. All clubs were wearing them by the end of 1932; however, the Philadelphia Athletics only had them on road uniforms until 1937.

"If I were a betting man, I'd say there's nothing major in our future," he said. "We have a real strong club right now if we just fill in to complement what we have."

Theo in ESPN pages this morning - right in the middle of the Deal being back on the "Front Burner" story.

Just a smoke screen to keep the media hordes at bay.

Here's Theo's comment in the full context:

Link:
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/7503074.htm

NEW ORLEANS - Crunch time has come in the Rangers' trade talks with the Boston Red Sox concerning shortstop Alex Rodriguez.

With the winter meetings over, Rangers owner Tom Hicks and Red Sox owner John Henry resumed discussions on Monday on a trade that would send Rodriguez to Boston for outfielder Manny Ramirez, young pitching and substantial cash considerations.

The situation should be resolved by the end of the week and chances seem good that Rodriguez is going to Boston and Todd Walker will be coming to the Rangers. The final solution could depend on who wants to make the trade more.

"I did have a couple of conversations with John Henry," Hicks said. "We agreed to a timeframe that we'd like to move our discussions and get to a point where we can make a deal that would benefit both clubs or put it behind us and go about our business."

That the conversations are continuing strongly suggest that the Red Sox are willing to give in to the Rangers' financial demands, which is expected to be at least $5 million per season over the next five years.

At that rate, given the difference in contracts between Rodriguez and Ramirez, the Rangers would reap over $106 million in financial benefits if the deal goes down. Club officials made it clear that money would be used to improve the ballclub, especially the pitching staff.

But sources said the Rangers aren't forced for financial reasons to trade Rodriguez and they would be perfectly happy if he is back next year. So their strategy is to sit back, put the pressure on the Red Sox and let them settle all the issues that need to be settled.

That's why general manager John Hart continues to say, "Nothing has changed. We are leaving here with Alex Rodriguez as our shortstop. We envision him being our shortstop."

The main issues for the Red Sox are trading shortstop Nomar Garciaparra, who is likely headed to the Los Angeles Dodgers, and possibly reworking Rodriguez's 10-year, $252 million contract.

But that's not expected to be a major obstacle to the deal and it's unlikely that the Players' Association will allow any significant changes that will devalue the contract. Rodriguez's agent Scott Boras said right now there is no meeting scheduled with the Red Sox.

The Rangers also want young pitching in the deal. Two first-round picks from the 2002 draft could satisfy that request.

One is Jon Lester, a left-hander in the Red Sox organization. Another, much more desirable, would be Greg Miller, a left-hander in the Dodgers' organization who could be sent to the Red Sox in a deal for Garciaparra and then sent to the Rangers.

Miller was 11-4 with a 2.49 earned run average in 21 games at Class A Vero Beach last season and 1-1 with a 1.01 ERA in four games at Double A Jacksonville. He is a 6-foot-5 left-hander from Esperanza (Calif.) High.

A source said the Red Sox have also had talks with the Chicago White Sox. Last summer the Rangers were high on minor league pitcher Neal Cotts. The White Sox have two other pitchers who would fit the Rangers' criteria -- Danny Wright and Jon Rauch.

Another scenario that was discussed was the St. Louis Cardinals sending pitcher Jason Marquis to the Red Sox for reliever Scott Williamson. Marquis, 25, who was acquired Saturday from the Atlanta Braves, would then be sent to the Rangers in a deal for Rodriguez. But Cardinals general manager Walt Jocketty said he wants to keep Marquis.

The Red Sox, having had a productive off-season so far, also insist that this is not a deal that they have to do.

Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein said, "If I was a betting man, I'd say there's no major move in our future. I'll echo that there are no significant investments coming. We're in a nice position. We have a really strong club as it is if we fill in to complement what we have and there's a chance we'll get even better if things break our way."

Lester is the only pitcher in the Red Sox farm system who interests the Rangers. The Rangers would like minor league catcher Kelly Shoppach, a former standout at Brewer High School and Baylor, but the Red Sox want to keep him because Jason Varitek can be a free agent after next season.

The Rangers have already set up contingency plans should Rodriguez depart. They have expressed preliminary interest in free agent second baseman Walker, who was with the Red Sox last year, which would mean moving Michael Young to shortstop. Eric Young is another free agent second baseman who could be considered.

The Rangers have also considered a couple of free agent shortstops. Rich Aurilia is one but his price is high right now. The other is Tony Womack, who had his best seasons playing for Buck Showalter in Arizona but is coming off knee surgery and might not be at full strength by Opening Day.

Walker hit .283 with 15 home runs and 83 runs batted in, and seems the most likely target if Rodriguez leaves.

Rodriguez would have to approve a trade. But Boras made it clear that Rodriguez would welcome a trade to the Red Sox.

"I was excited about Alex playing in Texas [when the deal was signed] because there was a plan in place and that obviously -- for reasons that are frankly unknown to us -- has been altered because of the ownership's position," Boras told reporters at the winter meetings. "You want your clients happy and you want them achieving their goals and his goal is that he wants to win.'

Hicks has been in contact with Rodriguez and Boras during the process.

"The communication with the ownership has been excellent," Boras said. "Tom Hicks has been great at keeping us apprised of what's going on.'

Don't watch what I say, watch what I do.

The Sox have to make this deal to avoid the luxury tax.

They might wind up paying more money for Nomar than Manny
if they kept both.

It's about money.

Well, that's clearly the hometown view from Texas. Reading that you would think that it was the Rangers who were in the playoffs last year and the Sox desparate to make a change.

The way I look at it if EVERYTHING goes wrong the Sox go into the season with essentially the same lineup as last year with a new low cost 2B, and a significantly better pitching staff with schill, foulke, a full year of williamson and kim.

If the deal doesn't happen and everything goes right for the Rangers, they may catch someone for third in the AL west. I just don't see how they can think that they are holding all the cards. That 5 millon a year stipend for Manny just isn't going to happen.

I don't think it's to keep the media at bay, I still think they're trying very hard to secure a deal for Nomar at his maximum value. D and C said today that Odalis Perez isn't supposed to be part of the deal anymore, and that's probably because the A-Rod trade rumors are 'heating up' again. If the trade goes through, contracts signed, players officially move teams and Nomar is still a member of the Sox.....his value drops because teams KNOW we can't keep both.

Nomar is NOT going to play 2b for us, get that idea out of your heads faster than thinking Vlad will come here......it ain't happening.

Anyone know about how the luxury tax is calculated?

What is the the threshold and how/when does it get adjusted?

Is the tax due on the marginal dollars, or the whole payroll once the threshold is exceeded?

Are deferred payments counted now, during the current contract, or later?

Do we know for certain that the Sox will absolutely not exceed it in a given year?


Thanks

I agree. That's a deal-breaker as well as losing another player from the 25-man roster in that deal (Williamson or Kim, for example.) It has to be an even swap, with a prospect or two thrown in, or nothing. Take it or leave it.

The Rangers have to make this deal more than the Sox. If the deal isn't made, both Manny and Nomar heave a sigh of relief and go back to work while ARod has one more reason to be discontent with his lot in Texas (which includes a manager he doesn't like) and now has to put up with fans who know that he'd rather be in Boston. Could get real ugly down there.

The Rangers aresn't going anywhere if they don't make this deal. The Sox are still competing for a championship if they don't make this deal. Theo's right.

Does ESPN have a bias against this deal or is it just me. They report on the deal as minimal as possible. When they do report it they try to play it down. It's heating up but Theo doesn't think it will happen. It's annoying.

ESPN has always been very pro Yankee (and no I'm not paranoid). I think the overall ESPN network is rather inconsistent.

ESPN tv reports talks are ongoing but its a long shot.

ESPN radio reports the deal is hot and heavy and likely to get done this week.

ESPN's website is somewhere in the middle.

rsb

The following is what I am fairly sure is accurate:

The luxury tax is based on payroll for the whole 40 man roster and is set at 120.5 million for the coming year. The number for each player are calculated on the average salary over the term of the contract. The tax is 22.5% on the amount over the threshold (it is 30% for the Yanks as this is their second year over). The Sox using next years current salary figures and some estimates for arbitration are at about 130 mill, and that's only the 25 man roster. Given some of the long term deals ending this year (Tek,Nixon, Nomar,etc) I expect there calc for payroll is a bit smaller, but in it's current configuration they almost have to be over, hence the prospect of trading Williamson and/or Kim and the 4-5 million arbitration money.

I thought it was a forgone conclusion that we were just going to go past the luxury tax? If Theo and the Trio can pull of some deals that provide us with fair replacements for Manny and 2B, then come in under the cap.. Wow, that would be some kind of miracle. Doubt it will happen but maybe that is their goal since Selig has been tossing bones the Sox way the past couple of years.

Is there a deadline for this deal to get done? My feeling is that both parties would like to have this settled (one way or another) before Christmas, but in reality, it could drag on for weeks, right?

Both parites have claimed (in so many words) that this is a deal that they don't have to make. So if these claims are genuine, then why make any concessions? Why settle for less than you want? With months until the start of spring training, where's the pressure to agree to less than you want?

And I'm sure that Henry wants more than just prospects from LA for Nomar.

Certainly there is no set in stone deadline like Jackass Hicks vomited up the other day, but there has to be a relatively quick resolution because of all the other pieces and teams involved.

Obviously the Angels, Dodgers and perhaps other teams are holding off on certain moves in order to see if Nomar is or is not available.

We have heard that the Rangers have a "tentative" deal with Todd Walker that will be consumated If A-Rod is traded.

And the Sox obviously need to know whether we should hold any serious future discussions with Tellem and Nomar about a long term deal.

So there are many players, teams and other dominoes on hold. I would think this would need to come together in short order.

rsb

I agree even with the proposed/likely swaps I think they have resigned themselves to paying a small amount of tax this year. Adding A-rod and a 6 mill/yr LF, subtracting Nomar, manny and Williamson still leaves them around 123. They might get close, but the only way I can see them getting definetively under it is if they deal Damon and his 8 mill somwhere and replace him with someone half his price, which I am not sure I'd want them to do if they could. The remaining lead off options aren't real sound.

Does anyone know if the Sox have asked Nomar to consider 2B or even LF? Heck, Garciaparra of all players should be willing to consider it, given that Val vacated the shortstop position to make way for him, and he (Nomar) was only a rookie. In this case, I'm sure even Nomar would acknowledge that ARod is the superior shortstop. Why should Garciaparra be above making a change for a good of the team? He could be part of something special in 2004, and then go for his big payday next offseason.

Jim D.

I don't know if anyone knows for sure, Jim. I'm pretty confident that all bases were covered by management though. They're the types that explore every option, wouldn't ya say?

In General, the entire national media is pro-Yankee.

ESPN is really bad, and Fox is even worse.

They keep flip flopping their story to protect their own butt. The majority of professional sports fans are blind to this, but most Red Sox fans see their intentions clearly.

As I've said before, when ESPN started it was great. 24 hour sports news...timely updates...solid reporters...and they were all hungry.

Now they simply hire standup comedians to deliver the sports....do sloppy reporting...provide inconsistent information...contradict themselves...and re-run the same pieces excessively over a 36 hour window.

rsb

I agree with your assessment of Sox management. It's just that some people like to post that there is 'NO WAY' Nomar will play 2B. I'd like to see the facts that have allowed them to be so sure about that.

Jim D.

The Dodgers believe they won't have to wait much longer for Garciaparra to become available, though completing a deal is another matter. Although the Angels are no longer believed to be interested in trading for the former Bellflower St. John Bosco High standout, the Dodgers could face competition from the Seattle Mariners, who finished behind the Baltimore Orioles in bidding for shortstop Miguel Tejada.

souce- LA Times (registration required)


http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-base16...eadlines-sports

What players, could the Mariners offer the Sox?

Apparently the word coming from Texas is that Hicks thinks the deal is going to go down like this (as was the word from a Texas based paper reported on WEEI):

Texas gets: Manny, 5 million per year for 5 years, Jon Lester (Sox Prospect), and Greg Miller who we get for Nomar from LA.


If that is what is going to happen, i'll be shocked and disgusted. I hope that was the just crack, that Hicks just smoked, speaking for him.

Make that "pretty boy model airhead standup comedians" and I'm with you 100%.

Imagine if Art Martone, say, were up for a job on ESPN (not that he'd want one, of course). The first thing he'd be asked is not "how much money do you want?" or "what kind of program do you envision?" or anything related to baseball, it would be "Which plastic surgeon are you planning to use?"

Can u copy and paste that on 2 this forum?

Rodriguez Has Dodgers, Other Teams Playing Waiting Game
By Jason Reid and Ross Newhan, Times Staff Writers


NEW ORLEANS — The baseball winter meetings ended Monday with the Dodgers among many clubs kept waiting to an extent by the prolonged discussions involving the Boston Red Sox and Texas Rangers regarding an Alex Rodriguez trade.

As the Red Sox continued their pursuit of the Ranger All-Star, the Dodgers hoped the complex and high-finance trade of Rodriguez for outfielder Manny Ramirez ultimately would lead to Boston shortstop Nomar Garciaparra's coming to Los Angeles.

The Southland native remains the Dodgers' top target for a middle-of-the-order right-handed batter, club sources said, and people close to Garciaparra said the feeling is mutual because of his deteriorating relationship with the Red Sox. A-Rod's big move appeared to gain momentum as Texas owner Tom Hicks and Boston's principal owner, John Henry, continued talks about the potential blockbuster, and several baseball sources indicated a deal could be completed within days.

"It's at the ownership level, and that's where the focus is going to be now," said Scott Boras, Rodriguez's agent.

"That's not to say that something is going to happen. I don't know if anything will happen, all I know is that they're talking. The nature of these things is that you just have to wait and see."

The Dodgers believe they won't have to wait much longer for Garciaparra to become available, though completing a deal is another matter. Although the Angels are no longer believed to be interested in trading for the former Bellflower St. John Bosco High standout, the Dodgers could face competition from the Seattle Mariners, who finished behind the Baltimore Orioles in bidding for shortstop Miguel Tejada.

Indicating how much the Dodgers want Garciaparra, a Dodger source said Evans might be willing to include in the deal left-hander Greg Miller, the club's minor league pitcher of the year. Other potential trades throughout baseball are also stalled at the table as clubs wait for the biggest domino to fall.

"There are some things that are dependent on other things," said Evans, not commenting specifically on the A-Rod situation. "But I think we did a good job of establishing what our options are."

Chicago White Sox outfielder Magglio Ordonez, who hit 29 homers and drove in 99 runs last season, is the Dodgers' first option if something goes awry with Garciaparra.

Dodger scouts have raved about Ordonez since Evans formulated his off-season strategy in an October meeting with his top advisors, club sources said. The Dodgers and White Sox worked late into the evening Sunday to try to hammer out a deal for Ordonez, whom some scouts consider to be a better fit for the Dodgers than Garciaparra.

But although White Sox General Manager Ken Williams won't trade Ordonez, who will make $14 million in the last year of his contract in 2004, to the Dodgers unless standout reliever Guillermo Mota is the centerpiece of a four- to five-player package, Evans and White Sox official Larry Monroe met repeatedly before the clubs left the meetings here Monday.

"We only make moves that we believe make us better as a team and as an organization," said Williams, who declined to comment on the Ordonez talks. "I'll consider anything that will help us because that's my job, but I'm not going to consider things that don't help us."

Meanwhile, the Dodgers moved forward with free agents.

Two National League general managers said the Dodgers officially got into the bidding for All-Star catcher Ivan Rodriguez, who is believed to be seeking a four-year, $36-million contract. The Dodgers last month offered catcher Paul Lo Duca to the Florida Marlins for Derrek Lee and to the Milwaukee Brewers for Richie Sexson.

Some in the organization expressed concerns about Lo Duca, sources said, in part because his offensive statistics have decreased significantly the last two seasons after he batted .320 with 25 home runs and 90 runs batted in during 2001. Lo Duca will receive $3.9 million in 2004.

The Oakland Athletics are among the clubs that have expressed significant interest in Lo Duca, although the A's traded for Montreal Expo catcher Michael Barrett on Monday. Whether Lo Duca remains with the Dodgers might depend on how close Ivan Rodriguez is to signing with the Baltimore Orioles.

Free-agent second baseman Todd Walker also is among the contingency plans.

A career .290 hitter, Walker batted .283 with 13 homers, 38 doubles and 85 RBIs for Boston last season.

The Dodgers moved closer to bolstering their new-look rotation by re-signing left-hander Wilson Alvarez, who went 6-2 with a 2.37 earned-run average. The Dodgers also announced the signing of outfielder Juan Encarnacion, whom they acquired from the Florida Marlins.

Terms were not disclosed, but a club source said Encarnacion signed a two-year, $8-million contract. He will receive $3.5 million in 2004 and $4.5 million in 2005.

"I give our staff a lot of credit," Evans said. "They really did a good job identifying what we can and cannot do."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-base16...eadlines-sports

Put me on the shocked and disgusted bandwagon, too! This can't be true.

If it were true, then Nomar is a pure salary dump with nothing in return.

Say it ain't so, John Henry!

IMHO there is no way in hell the Sox would make that trade and if they did I take back every nice thing I've said about them because they would essentially be giving Nomar to LA and taking on A Rod + 5 mill extra per season. The only way I see any money at all going to Tex is if A Rod restrucutres his contract. Then the offset monies could be sent to Texas but I don't think it would be anywhere near 5 mill. Maybe 3 mill in the first year 2 in the second 1 in the third and then none, but no way do they get a penny. If Hicks isn't bluffing then I officially hop off the A Rod express and say that we should tell him he must be witnessing gas chamber executions in a non ventilated room. IMO no way do we give up Greg Miller. No frickin way, especially if he's our main return for Nomar which i don't see as logical anyways. If LA pulled Odalis Perez off the table then inform them that Seattle is now #1 contender for Nomar and watch them change their minds and offer him again. This report can't be true, the Sox have stood so firm in saying that no money would be paid I find it unfathomable that they now say, "OK take Manny, a prospect from us, a #1 blue chip prospect that we receive for Nomar, and 25 mill over the next 5 years. Manny's contract would be reduced to somewhere in the 15-17 mill per year range if we do that, and for that money he becomes very attractive to other clubs, (MFY, B'more if Vlad falls through) just to name two off the top of my head. And Steinbrenner would jump at the chance to take a player that Boston is paying to play for them. Unless Michael Young is involved I don't see the sense in giving away Miller if that's who we get for Nomar. I'd be shocked. Tell Hicks to go into rehab because he must be on drugs if he thinks he can get that in a trade for just A Rod. But put JH in rehab if he makes the deal under those parameters because he'd have to be on drugs to accept.

ESPN has fallen a long way in the last few years. I remember when I loved to watch baseball tonight, this year was damn near unwatchable. There are just too many ex-ballplayers who can't speak or talk intelligently. Bobby V (thank god hes in Japan) was just a self-promoting blowhard, I'm not sure I've agreed with anything Harold Reynolds has ever said, he's just an idiot, and Dibble will say whatever he can to get a reaction from somebody, doesn't matter how dumb it obviously is.

It really seems like espn has gotten complacent. They are ripe for a new challenger to come up with channel,hard news, less fluff, fewer athletes (I understand they have unique perspectives, but at least get the ones that can form complete thoughts). ESPN seems to be a lot of sizzle these days and not a lot of steak.

That sounds unbelieveably unreasonable.

I may have to shoot myself if that is how it goes down.

BTW, I have heard that we may trade Kim and others from the Nomar package to Chicago for Magglio. We keep Miller.

BTW, who would you prefer, Edwin Jackson or Greg Miller?

Greg Miller. Minor league player of the year. Only 19 I believe and I also believe he's a lefty. Way better in my opinion.