Full Version: The A-Rod files
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I got your back the whole way BSG!
As long as we don't know what we are getting for Nomar, I find it hard to judge this proposed trade. A-Rod is going to be the best player ever, let's not forget that, but Manny and Nomar are no slouches. As long as Theo and Company can get a legit LF and 2B I will be alright with this trade from a baseball standpoint. From a personal standpoint, I will be extremely disheartened, but that's how it is. That is the way of professional sports. It is not easy. I just hope Nomar understands that it is not personal.
The more reports I read about what we might get for Nomar the worse it looks. Everyone says Theo is too smart to just give him away, but no one has listed a trade that would get us anywhere near equal value. Without that, half of RedSox Nation will see this as a bad trade, undermining all the good will that the Schilling & Foulke signings achieved.
QUOTE(BoSoxGirl75 @ Dec 17 2003, 01:40 AM)
everyone go to this thread --> thread and vote when you think the press conference will be....winner gets bragging rights! you have till 10AM, I believe JTB set it up.
and I've decided not to respond to people who think this is a bad trade anymore...but how could it be a bad trade when we don't know what we are getting in return for Nomar?!
I will stop now because it will make me very angry if I have to explalin anything anymore....there are 85 pages here...
and I've decided not to respond to people who think this is a bad trade anymore...but how could it be a bad trade when we don't know what we are getting in return for Nomar?!
I will stop now because it will make me very angry if I have to explalin anything anymore....there are 85 pages here...
QUOTE
...there are 85 pages here...
And there will test a test on them in the morning.
THis is the last time I'm gonna say this about this trade- Nomar makes 11.5$ mil next year. The trade results in a salary dump which allows us flexibility (and cheap highly valued talent) to trade for the OF replacement. It isnt too too hard to understand.
The Nomar "dump" is predicated on the belief that he will not extend beyond 2004 at a reasonable rate. I believe that's true. So, you trade him (for one year of Ordonez apparently) so that you don't end up with nothing.
Where did these Ordonez rumors come from? They make no monetary sense.
QUOTE
Also dont forget that Bagwell credits the Astros organization for completley changing his swing and turnign him into the hitter he is today.
Well, Butch Hobson, Bagwell's manager at New Britain, said that they were already working on it when he got traded and that he was finally showing some results. Hobson said that Bagwell was crushing the ball so square that he was hitting wicked line drives that sunk like a tennis player's overhand and that they all knew down at New Britain that as soon as he learned to uppercut the ball a tad (yes, just like Teddy Ballgame said you should) he would be hitting a lot of monster home runs. Of course, Lou Gorman, who had never seen Bags play, offered him up to the Astros, who really wanted Scott Cooper instead, by merely looking at a stat book, and never even calling anyone at New Britain about it. Hobson said that he cried when he found out. One of the sorriest moments in Sox history, of which there have been a few.
From LA Times:
QUOTE
Selig Steps Into Talks
He apparently has set deadline for Rodriguez deal. Dodgers may be in a fight for Garciaparra.
By Ross Newhan and Jason Reid, Times Staff Writers
The window is about to close on the protracted negotiations between the Boston Red Sox and Texas Rangers regarding a possible Manny Ramirez- for-Alex Rodriguez trade. Commissioner Bud Selig has apparently had enough of the circus atmosphere in which tampering and other rules have been ignored.
Sources familiar with the situation said Tuesday night that Selig has established a Thursday afternoon deadline to complete the trade or end the talks.
With the clock ticking, there was a flurry of activity on several fronts, including Los Angeles.
Sources said Dodger general manager Dan Evans and Boston counterpart Theo Epstein had several phone conversations regarding a trade that would bring the Red Sox shortstop, Nomar Garciaparra, to the Dodgers if Boston acquires Rodriguez.
In addition:
There were intensified negotiations between Tom Hicks, the Texas owner, and John Henry, principal owner of the Red Sox, prompting Hicks to release a statement in which he said the talks were at a "sensitive point" and, thus, neither he nor Henry would have further comment.
There were also meetings at the players union in New York involving Rodriguez, Epstein and union lawyers on the possible restructuring of A-Rod's record contract and sources said that Scott Boras, who represents Rodriguez, was flying to New York from Los Angeles Tuesday night to help with the financial complexities.
The Rangers are demanding that the Red Sox pick up all of the $179 million that remains on A-Rod's contract through 2010 while also contributing $5 million a year to the $97.5 million that remains on Ramirez's contract through 2008.
Texas also wants Boston to include a young pitcher or two.
While the union opposes any restructuring that would decrease the overall value of Rodriguez's package, sources said an effort is being made to move some of the guaranteed dollars to the back end of what was a 10- year, $252-million contract. That would make it easier for the Red Sox to contribute to the Ramirez obligation.
Although all parties want the trade consummated, it isn't clear yet how this will play out.
"I think it's inching toward conclusion," said a person involved in the negotiations, "but there are still some major financial hurdles."
In addition, the Red Sox have been attempting to put a deal for Garciaparra in place so that they aren't left with two of the game's best shortstops if the Rodriguez trade comes first, a scenario virtually forcing them to give Garciaparra away.
The Boston shortstop has been the Dodgers' No. 1 priority, but sources said they have competition.
The Chicago White Sox are said to be dangling Magglio Ordonez at the Red Sox, offering Boston something the Dodgers can't a proven run producer to compensate for the potential loss of Ramirez and Garciaparra.
Talking carefully to avoid tampering violations, Evans said he was not surprised by the competition for Garciaparra.
"I've felt all along there could be," he said.
"That's why we've looked at alternatives and discussed fallback positions."
While the Dodgers themselves have met with the White Sox to discuss Ordonez, sources said there have also been negotiations regarding a possible three-way trade that would send Ordonez to Boston and Garciaparra to the White Sox, who would then trade him to the Dodgers for a three- or four-player package.
The Sox, in the talks with the Dodgers involving Ordonez, had asked for Odalis Perez, Guillermo Mota and two prospects.
Evans, however, has strongly resisted trading Mota or his three top prospects: pitchers Edwin Jackson and Greg Miller and outfielder Franklin Gutierrez. In addition, any two- or three-way trade talks involving the Dodgers and White Sox are complicated by the cool relationship between Evans and Sox General Manager Ken Williams.
Evans spent 19 years in the White Sox front office before resigning when Williams was selected to succeed Ron Schueler. While sources said there is only the remote possibility of a three-way trade, people close to the Garciaparra camp, hopeful of bringing the Southern California native to Los Angeles, were working Tuesday to broker the deal and take it away from the potentially combustible one-upmanship of Evans and Williams.
The Chicago GM insisted he would never let a personal relationship stand in the way of doing what's best for his club.
"This job is hard enough to do without having to worry about what your personal feelings are toward a particular person or something that has happened in the distant past," he told the Chicago Tribune. "You have to do what's right for the organization, for the club and for the city."
While Garciaparra occupied most of Evans' attention as he returned from the winter meetings, Dodger sources said he also talked with Boras about free-agent catcher Ivan Rodriguez. The Dodgers, however, have yet to make an offer, a source said, and Rodriguez is believed close to signing a four-year contract with the Baltimore Orioles.
Said Boras, who declined to comment on whether he had spoken with the Dodgers: "Pudge has a well-defined market and this is moving quickly. We're far down the road with one club that has been very aggressive in trying to get the player, and I would say that something could happen very soon."[
He apparently has set deadline for Rodriguez deal. Dodgers may be in a fight for Garciaparra.
By Ross Newhan and Jason Reid, Times Staff Writers
The window is about to close on the protracted negotiations between the Boston Red Sox and Texas Rangers regarding a possible Manny Ramirez- for-Alex Rodriguez trade. Commissioner Bud Selig has apparently had enough of the circus atmosphere in which tampering and other rules have been ignored.
Sources familiar with the situation said Tuesday night that Selig has established a Thursday afternoon deadline to complete the trade or end the talks.
With the clock ticking, there was a flurry of activity on several fronts, including Los Angeles.
Sources said Dodger general manager Dan Evans and Boston counterpart Theo Epstein had several phone conversations regarding a trade that would bring the Red Sox shortstop, Nomar Garciaparra, to the Dodgers if Boston acquires Rodriguez.
In addition:
There were intensified negotiations between Tom Hicks, the Texas owner, and John Henry, principal owner of the Red Sox, prompting Hicks to release a statement in which he said the talks were at a "sensitive point" and, thus, neither he nor Henry would have further comment.
There were also meetings at the players union in New York involving Rodriguez, Epstein and union lawyers on the possible restructuring of A-Rod's record contract and sources said that Scott Boras, who represents Rodriguez, was flying to New York from Los Angeles Tuesday night to help with the financial complexities.
The Rangers are demanding that the Red Sox pick up all of the $179 million that remains on A-Rod's contract through 2010 while also contributing $5 million a year to the $97.5 million that remains on Ramirez's contract through 2008.
Texas also wants Boston to include a young pitcher or two.
While the union opposes any restructuring that would decrease the overall value of Rodriguez's package, sources said an effort is being made to move some of the guaranteed dollars to the back end of what was a 10- year, $252-million contract. That would make it easier for the Red Sox to contribute to the Ramirez obligation.
Although all parties want the trade consummated, it isn't clear yet how this will play out.
"I think it's inching toward conclusion," said a person involved in the negotiations, "but there are still some major financial hurdles."
In addition, the Red Sox have been attempting to put a deal for Garciaparra in place so that they aren't left with two of the game's best shortstops if the Rodriguez trade comes first, a scenario virtually forcing them to give Garciaparra away.
The Boston shortstop has been the Dodgers' No. 1 priority, but sources said they have competition.
The Chicago White Sox are said to be dangling Magglio Ordonez at the Red Sox, offering Boston something the Dodgers can't a proven run producer to compensate for the potential loss of Ramirez and Garciaparra.
Talking carefully to avoid tampering violations, Evans said he was not surprised by the competition for Garciaparra.
"I've felt all along there could be," he said.
"That's why we've looked at alternatives and discussed fallback positions."
While the Dodgers themselves have met with the White Sox to discuss Ordonez, sources said there have also been negotiations regarding a possible three-way trade that would send Ordonez to Boston and Garciaparra to the White Sox, who would then trade him to the Dodgers for a three- or four-player package.
The Sox, in the talks with the Dodgers involving Ordonez, had asked for Odalis Perez, Guillermo Mota and two prospects.
Evans, however, has strongly resisted trading Mota or his three top prospects: pitchers Edwin Jackson and Greg Miller and outfielder Franklin Gutierrez. In addition, any two- or three-way trade talks involving the Dodgers and White Sox are complicated by the cool relationship between Evans and Sox General Manager Ken Williams.
Evans spent 19 years in the White Sox front office before resigning when Williams was selected to succeed Ron Schueler. While sources said there is only the remote possibility of a three-way trade, people close to the Garciaparra camp, hopeful of bringing the Southern California native to Los Angeles, were working Tuesday to broker the deal and take it away from the potentially combustible one-upmanship of Evans and Williams.
The Chicago GM insisted he would never let a personal relationship stand in the way of doing what's best for his club.
"This job is hard enough to do without having to worry about what your personal feelings are toward a particular person or something that has happened in the distant past," he told the Chicago Tribune. "You have to do what's right for the organization, for the club and for the city."
While Garciaparra occupied most of Evans' attention as he returned from the winter meetings, Dodger sources said he also talked with Boras about free-agent catcher Ivan Rodriguez. The Dodgers, however, have yet to make an offer, a source said, and Rodriguez is believed close to signing a four-year contract with the Baltimore Orioles.
Said Boras, who declined to comment on whether he had spoken with the Dodgers: "Pudge has a well-defined market and this is moving quickly. We're far down the road with one club that has been very aggressive in trying to get the player, and I would say that something could happen very soon."[
here's the deal.....no more big signings...which means you don't get ordonez or anyone else worth the trade....I don't have to know what we're getting in return for Nomar because no matter what it is it won't equal Manny and Nomar at 3-4. Unless you get Vlad, it ain't worth it. They're going for broke in 2004 and they already have the line-up to do it -- don't mess with it.
On a side note, and an interesting one-
ESPN.com has a little sidebar where it has links to different articles on the ARod dealings. The final sentence, the last few words of which are a link to the article about the union meetings says "It appears safe to expect it to happen." ESPN is THE national sports source of record. If they didn't have good reason to believe it was going to happen, would they leave that on their site for the last 10 hours? I dont think so either. Also, for everybody thats bitchin and moanin about the trade now- can we officially invalidate their ability to cheer when he comes to plate, and can we publicly humiliate them when the team is MARKEDLY better? Does anone realize that a bsaeball team is made up of an offense...AND A DEFENSE?! even if the net package for manny + nomar is a teensy bit less productive than ARod and whoever, we also have added Schilling and Keith Foulke, who should cut down on the 21 BS last year. Come on people, look at the team as a whole, and be HAPPY that youre adding the BEST PLAYER IN BASEBALL! Most teams would KILL to be in our position. So lets enjoy what will be a great thing,.
ESPN.com has a little sidebar where it has links to different articles on the ARod dealings. The final sentence, the last few words of which are a link to the article about the union meetings says "It appears safe to expect it to happen." ESPN is THE national sports source of record. If they didn't have good reason to believe it was going to happen, would they leave that on their site for the last 10 hours? I dont think so either. Also, for everybody thats bitchin and moanin about the trade now- can we officially invalidate their ability to cheer when he comes to plate, and can we publicly humiliate them when the team is MARKEDLY better? Does anone realize that a bsaeball team is made up of an offense...AND A DEFENSE?! even if the net package for manny + nomar is a teensy bit less productive than ARod and whoever, we also have added Schilling and Keith Foulke, who should cut down on the 21 BS last year. Come on people, look at the team as a whole, and be HAPPY that youre adding the BEST PLAYER IN BASEBALL! Most teams would KILL to be in our position. So lets enjoy what will be a great thing,.
ESPN.COM is my #1 source for news. In fact, they just posted ANOTHER update. In fact, they've been saying it's likley to happen any day now for like the last THREE WEEKS. Don't get me wrong....the Sox are going to kick the Yankees ass with or without this trade but it's the pitching improvements that's going to make the difference. And you PRO-TRADE folks -- get off your high horse and stop acting like us ANTI-TRADE folks are going to stop being fans if the trade goes down. I'm sure there are personnel folks on the Sox management team who are not necessarily for this trade either. There's no whining here. I trust the Red Sox management to do the right thing. But don't be fooled -- this is a business deal, not a baseball deal. If we were kids trading baseball cards, very few would give up manny and nomar for A-Rod and a player to be named later.........
QUOTE(JohntheBaptist @ Dec 17 2003, 02:52 AM)
On a side note, and an interesting one-
ESPN.com has a little sidebar where it has links to different articles on the ARod dealings. The final sentence, the last few words of which are a link to the article about the union meetings says "It appears safe to expect it to happen." ESPN is THE national sports source of record. If they didn't have good reason to believe it was going to happen, would they leave that on their site for the last 10 hours? I dont think so either. Also, for everybody thats bitchin and moanin about the trade now- can we officially invalidate their ability to cheer when he comes to plate, and can we publicly humiliate them when the team is MARKEDLY better? Does anone realize that a bsaeball team is made up of an offense...AND A DEFENSE?! even if the net package for manny + nomar is a teensy bit less productive than ARod and whoever, we also have added Schilling and Keith Foulke, who should cut down on the 21 BS last year. Come on people, look at the team as a whole, and be HAPPY that youre adding the BEST PLAYER IN BASEBALL! Most teams would KILL to be in our position. So lets enjoy what will be a great thing,.
ESPN.com has a little sidebar where it has links to different articles on the ARod dealings. The final sentence, the last few words of which are a link to the article about the union meetings says "It appears safe to expect it to happen." ESPN is THE national sports source of record. If they didn't have good reason to believe it was going to happen, would they leave that on their site for the last 10 hours? I dont think so either. Also, for everybody thats bitchin and moanin about the trade now- can we officially invalidate their ability to cheer when he comes to plate, and can we publicly humiliate them when the team is MARKEDLY better? Does anone realize that a bsaeball team is made up of an offense...AND A DEFENSE?! even if the net package for manny + nomar is a teensy bit less productive than ARod and whoever, we also have added Schilling and Keith Foulke, who should cut down on the 21 BS last year. Come on people, look at the team as a whole, and be HAPPY that youre adding the BEST PLAYER IN BASEBALL! Most teams would KILL to be in our position. So lets enjoy what will be a great thing,.
Hey John,
While I agree whole heartedly with you, people will be screaming in some corner all season about how they don't like this trade. That kind of talk isn't going to go away no matter how rediculous it gets to some of us.
____________________________________________________________________
On a different note, Thursday everyone will have all of their questions answered. (Save how the Sox perform next season, of course)
A-Rod wants to be here. Regardless of what Nomar claims, he has never given off that vibe. He said it himself on the radio. About his disposition and all of that stuff. This appears to be a case of making your bed etc etc..
I think the one thing that people forget is that even though the trade is A-Rod/Manny, the main question is what are we replacing Manny with because A-Rod is taking Nomar's spot. If Theo comes through with a solid 90-100 RBI person then things should be just fine.
Looks like the redsox might have another bidder for Nomar and get more for him Omar Vizquel failed physical things are looking up.
I have been reading this thread throughout the day and I think that a few people have seriously lost their heads. From the looks of it, it sounds like there are some people so committed to the idea of ARod at SS that they will do anything to see it happen. Please try to remember that the ultimate goal of this trade should be to improve the team in 2004 and beyond. When reporters speculate that the Sox will trade Nomar, Manny, Lester, Kim and Williamson for ARod and Ordonez, it can be hard to see why that helps the team this year. It is consistently ignored on this thread that the Sox will probably have to include other players in these deals and that other teams know the Sox now HAVE to trade Nomar -- pretty much even if they don't get ARod. But let's look at four possible rationale(s) behind the trade. I think, IF this trade goes down, then all four will have been implicated. Once we know the particulars, we can judge which, if any predominate. We can also decide if there is another one that we don't know about. Here are the 4 rationales I have come up with:
1) The trade will create payroll flexibility now and in the years to come because the Sox will be ridding themselves of $31.5 next year and approx. 97.5M over Manny's contract. In return the Sox will get ARod's contract and player(s) X for $$ which will be cheaper than Nomar and Manny and Player X will be in a slot the Sox are willing to pay as opposed to $15M for Nomar. This will enable the Sox to invest in multiple areas of the team as opposed to having $35M locked up in 2 position players.
Under this rationale, the trade is actually a sort of salary dump and it doesn't really matter whom the Sox pick up. In this scenario, the Sox can trade Nomar for a couple of kid pitchers and flip them out for a LF in the $7-9M range. The problem here is that, not knowing whom the Sox pick up in LF, the team on the field could get worse in the short term.
2) The trade will create a better team on the field because ARod and virtually any adequate and available player X of the Trot Nixon/Reggie Sanders class and above are equal to, if not better than (when fielding is considered) Nomar and Manny. (This rationale depends 100% on whom they get to play LF/replace Manny)
Under this rationale, the goal of the trade is to improve the team on the field regardless of cost. In this scenario, the goal is to obtain equal value for Nomar and damn the luxury tax, full speed ahead. For example, if the Sox were somehow able to swing Magglio Ordonez for Nomar, this scenario would predominate because Ordonez and ARod are a better combo than Nomar and Manny. Cost must, in this situation, be irrelevant because ARod and Ordonez make millions more than Manny and Nomar next year.
3) The trade will create new and unheard of marketing opportunities and, by controlling the league's signature star, will allow Boston to be a rival to NY as the "fixture franchise" (if that's the right word) of MLB.
I am even less qualified to comment on this than I am on the baseball part of this deal.
4) Nomar has outstayed his welcome with his comments to WEEI, Tellem's comments to JH and his demands for a contract in a range between Tejada and Jeter. In this scenario, Nomar is the catalyst for the deal and the Red Sox are likely to try to deal himunless they plan on losing him to FA (despite Theo's insistence in earlier interviews that they won't trade players at the expense of the 2004 team).
This rationale would predominate based on the insistence, by WBZ4 and others, that JH is fed up with dealing with Nomar wants to deal Nomar no matter what. This rationale is further supported by the apparent breakdown in talks for a Nomar extension. We'll never know what was discussed in N.O. between Tellem and Theo, but I would have liked to have seen that!
EDIT-- I forgot to add: IMO, trading multiple players along with Nomar and Manny (i.e. Kim and Williamson) not to mention the $5M that Pricks reportedly CONTINUES to insist upon, BETTER get us Ordonez. For anything less than that, it's not worth it -- money wise or on the field. The obsession to acquire ARod doesn't need to cripple the team for years to come. Hopefully it won't. I just want to remind everyone who is begging for ARod that ARod isn't a savior, he isn't a guarantee (witness -- Reyes) and he isn't going to be the guy that puts us over the top for a WS win. We have already acquired the best available starter and the best available closer this offseason. Our team won 95 games last year and got a bone-head move and a Posada bloop away from the WS. Rodriguez makes our SS better, but at what cost to the rest of the team and the future of the franchise? (and I know I am the 10,000th person to ask that question today)
Finally, there has been a lot of talk about how everyone "trusts" Theo to do the right thing and suggests that anyone who questions what is going on is crazy. There is a lot going on in this country right now based on blind trust in leaders. People are asked to trust John Ashcroft when the FBI spies on environmental and anti-war groups. We are asked to trust Dick Cheney about his energy task force. In America, "Trust" is becoming a code word for "shut up." Just because people are holding Theo and JH accountable doesn't mean they don't think they aren't working hard or that they are stupid. Those of us who don't blindly trust this deal just want to make sure Theo and JH know our loyalty isn't blind or undying. You need to earn it (ask Dan Duquette).
1) The trade will create payroll flexibility now and in the years to come because the Sox will be ridding themselves of $31.5 next year and approx. 97.5M over Manny's contract. In return the Sox will get ARod's contract and player(s) X for $$ which will be cheaper than Nomar and Manny and Player X will be in a slot the Sox are willing to pay as opposed to $15M for Nomar. This will enable the Sox to invest in multiple areas of the team as opposed to having $35M locked up in 2 position players.
Under this rationale, the trade is actually a sort of salary dump and it doesn't really matter whom the Sox pick up. In this scenario, the Sox can trade Nomar for a couple of kid pitchers and flip them out for a LF in the $7-9M range. The problem here is that, not knowing whom the Sox pick up in LF, the team on the field could get worse in the short term.
2) The trade will create a better team on the field because ARod and virtually any adequate and available player X of the Trot Nixon/Reggie Sanders class and above are equal to, if not better than (when fielding is considered) Nomar and Manny. (This rationale depends 100% on whom they get to play LF/replace Manny)
Under this rationale, the goal of the trade is to improve the team on the field regardless of cost. In this scenario, the goal is to obtain equal value for Nomar and damn the luxury tax, full speed ahead. For example, if the Sox were somehow able to swing Magglio Ordonez for Nomar, this scenario would predominate because Ordonez and ARod are a better combo than Nomar and Manny. Cost must, in this situation, be irrelevant because ARod and Ordonez make millions more than Manny and Nomar next year.
3) The trade will create new and unheard of marketing opportunities and, by controlling the league's signature star, will allow Boston to be a rival to NY as the "fixture franchise" (if that's the right word) of MLB.
I am even less qualified to comment on this than I am on the baseball part of this deal.
4) Nomar has outstayed his welcome with his comments to WEEI, Tellem's comments to JH and his demands for a contract in a range between Tejada and Jeter. In this scenario, Nomar is the catalyst for the deal and the Red Sox are likely to try to deal himunless they plan on losing him to FA (despite Theo's insistence in earlier interviews that they won't trade players at the expense of the 2004 team).
This rationale would predominate based on the insistence, by WBZ4 and others, that JH is fed up with dealing with Nomar wants to deal Nomar no matter what. This rationale is further supported by the apparent breakdown in talks for a Nomar extension. We'll never know what was discussed in N.O. between Tellem and Theo, but I would have liked to have seen that!
EDIT-- I forgot to add: IMO, trading multiple players along with Nomar and Manny (i.e. Kim and Williamson) not to mention the $5M that Pricks reportedly CONTINUES to insist upon, BETTER get us Ordonez. For anything less than that, it's not worth it -- money wise or on the field. The obsession to acquire ARod doesn't need to cripple the team for years to come. Hopefully it won't. I just want to remind everyone who is begging for ARod that ARod isn't a savior, he isn't a guarantee (witness -- Reyes) and he isn't going to be the guy that puts us over the top for a WS win. We have already acquired the best available starter and the best available closer this offseason. Our team won 95 games last year and got a bone-head move and a Posada bloop away from the WS. Rodriguez makes our SS better, but at what cost to the rest of the team and the future of the franchise? (and I know I am the 10,000th person to ask that question today)
Finally, there has been a lot of talk about how everyone "trusts" Theo to do the right thing and suggests that anyone who questions what is going on is crazy. There is a lot going on in this country right now based on blind trust in leaders. People are asked to trust John Ashcroft when the FBI spies on environmental and anti-war groups. We are asked to trust Dick Cheney about his energy task force. In America, "Trust" is becoming a code word for "shut up." Just because people are holding Theo and JH accountable doesn't mean they don't think they aren't working hard or that they are stupid. Those of us who don't blindly trust this deal just want to make sure Theo and JH know our loyalty isn't blind or undying. You need to earn it (ask Dan Duquette).
Is it just me, or are the actions of Texas ownership during this whole fiasco ridiculous? Let's face it, they're a last place team saddled with an immovable contract. If they want to improve, they don't really have any other options. Why would we entertain the idea of sending any prospects, let alone spendable cash with Manny when we send him on his merry way?
Without this trade, we're still world series contenders next year. Texas will have a hard time getting out of the basement, especially with the Angel's improvement.
Without this trade, we're still world series contenders next year. Texas will have a hard time getting out of the basement, especially with the Angel's improvement.
It sounds like the players union has come up with a contract restructuring plan
that A-Rod and the Sox must agree with. If this is a deal not to A-Rod's liking,
then I think it is time for A-Rod to take the bull by the horns and tell the union
what he wants. He is one of the most marketable players, with the best contact
in baseball, and if he wants to play for a little less and be happy, the union should sign off on it. He can threaten to pull a Bonds and pull out of the unions liscence
agreement. It is time for him to use his clout as the best player in baseball to
get what he wants. The union will not crumble if he only makes $21,000,000
a year. Get this deal out of the union's hands and back into the owners hands.
that A-Rod and the Sox must agree with. If this is a deal not to A-Rod's liking,
then I think it is time for A-Rod to take the bull by the horns and tell the union
what he wants. He is one of the most marketable players, with the best contact
in baseball, and if he wants to play for a little less and be happy, the union should sign off on it. He can threaten to pull a Bonds and pull out of the unions liscence
agreement. It is time for him to use his clout as the best player in baseball to
get what he wants. The union will not crumble if he only makes $21,000,000
a year. Get this deal out of the union's hands and back into the owners hands.
Latest from RotoWorld:
"According to ESPN's Karl Ravech, the MLBPA will on Wednesday present the Red Sox and Alex Rodriguez with a restructured deal that is amenable to the union. If both parties sign off on the proposed restructuring, the trade could become official. It appears that the Red Sox and A-Rod have pretty much reached their own resolution. However, the union might have its own ideas about what is and isn't acceptable. "They're moving and plodding along," Rodriguez's agent, Scott Boras, said Tuesday night, adding that he planned to take a late flight to New York to join the talks."
Link:
A-Rod @ RotoWorld
RotoWorld Link:
RotoWorld
"According to ESPN's Karl Ravech, the MLBPA will on Wednesday present the Red Sox and Alex Rodriguez with a restructured deal that is amenable to the union. If both parties sign off on the proposed restructuring, the trade could become official. It appears that the Red Sox and A-Rod have pretty much reached their own resolution. However, the union might have its own ideas about what is and isn't acceptable. "They're moving and plodding along," Rodriguez's agent, Scott Boras, said Tuesday night, adding that he planned to take a late flight to New York to join the talks."
Link:
A-Rod @ RotoWorld
RotoWorld Link:
RotoWorld
Sportsflash on EEI just said that the Sox might send Nomar and Williamson to ChiSox for Magglio Ordonez. They got the info from New York Newsday. Doubt it has anymore credibility than any other deal.
I want this to happen though. Ordonez would be great and maybe we can resign him long term before the season too.
I want this to happen though. Ordonez would be great and maybe we can resign him long term before the season too.
When Alex Rodriguez joins the Boston Red Sox, will he instantly be the best or greatest player in this organization since Ted Williams? Would that be fair to assume based on all that we have seen from him or does he have to earn it?
Just curious how everyone feels about his stature once he joins.
Just curious how everyone feels about his stature once he joins.
If we can get Ordonez in the Manny/A-Rod/Nomar deal I would be happy with that. He was a legitimate MVP candidate last year. He would replace Nomar's bat. His OPS is right where the Sox Sabermetric stat heads would want him to be. I like this, if it were possible.
QUOTE(Khross @ Dec 17 2003, 06:10 AM)
Sportsflash on EEI just said that the Sox might send Nomar and Williamson to ChiSox for Magglio Ordonez. They got the info from New York Newsday. Doubt it has anymore credibility than any other deal.
I want this to happen though. Ordonez would be great and maybe we can resign him long term before the season too.
I want this to happen though. Ordonez would be great and maybe we can resign him long term before the season too.
its happening
It is true. The Sox have supposedly finalized a trade of Nomar and Williamson for Ordonez and a couple of prospects. If this goes down, the Sox are by far the favorite for being the Champs.
QUOTE(Johnmac92 @ Dec 17 2003, 07:37 AM)
It is true. The Sox have supposedly finalized a trade of Nomar and Williamson for Ordonez and a couple of prospects. If this goes down, the Sox are by far the favorite for being the Champs.
Not sure about being the Champs in December but oh well.
My initial doubt was in place because we hear atleast 2 "certain" trades every day for Nomar, it seems. Yesterday he was going to LA for who knows what. Before that, Anahiem for who knows what. Now its the ChiSox.
Anywho, if it is going to happen, this is definately the best Nomar trade situation yet. Still makes me wonder what is going down to Texas along with Manny.
This is (part of) what the Chicago Sun-Times reports:
"The Associated Press reported late Tuesday that "there was talk the Red Sox might package Garciaparra'' in a deal with the White Sox, not mentioning a source of those talks.
White Sox officials were unavailable for comment late Tuesday, and the deal is believed to be wishful thinking. The White Sox already are well over budget, and that number only would increase by adding Garciaparra, Williamson and Kim. If the White Sox acquired Garciaparra, another deal to move salary would be a certainty."
"The Associated Press reported late Tuesday that "there was talk the Red Sox might package Garciaparra'' in a deal with the White Sox, not mentioning a source of those talks.
White Sox officials were unavailable for comment late Tuesday, and the deal is believed to be wishful thinking. The White Sox already are well over budget, and that number only would increase by adding Garciaparra, Williamson and Kim. If the White Sox acquired Garciaparra, another deal to move salary would be a certainty."
A question on the 'restructuring' aspect of this deal. If the last three years are 'voidable' by Alex doesn't that mean that is at the players discretion to do so? Why is the players union involved in that? Don't player options exist in contracts all over the place? Does the players unoin call and tell everyone they can't decline them since it would be devaluing the contract? Or is this about them being restructured in advance of when the permitted time frame to void them is listed in the contract? Then I could see why the MLBPA is involved. If Alex really wanted to come to Boston in theory could he arrange a 'gentleman's argeement' with JH to void those years when the time comes? Would anyone trust him to honor it? These 'voidable' years seem to be more than the typical players option and I'm not sure why they are different than the myriad of other players option that exist.
QUOTE(VerbalKint @ Dec 17 2003, 08:30 AM)
A question on the 'restructuring' aspect of this deal. If the last three years are 'voidable' by Alex doesn't that mean that is at the players discretion to do so? Why is the players union involved in that? Don't player options exist in contracts all over the place? Does the players unoin call and tell everyone they can't decline them since it would be devaluing the contract? Or is this about them being restructured in advance of when the permitted time frame to void them is listed in the contract? Then I could see why the MLBPA is involved. If Alex really wanted to come to Boston in theory could he arrange a 'gentleman's argeement' with JH to void those years when the time comes? Would anyone trust him to honor it? These 'voidable' years seem to be more than the typical players option and I'm not sure why they are different than the myriad of other players option that exist.
Hey Kaiser Soze,
What would make most sense in the restructuring of A-Rod's contract would be to lengthen the deal, decreasing the amount of money per year and increasing the overall worth of the contract. That makes the hampsters in the union office happy.
I couldn't imagine the Players Union allowing the contract to be devalued. They are evil that way.
QUOTE(Skip Romero @ Dec 17 2003, 03:55 AM)
Finally, there has been a lot of talk about how everyone "trusts" Theo to do the right thing and suggests that anyone who questions what is going on is crazy. There is a lot going on in this country right now based on blind trust in leaders. People are asked to trust John Ashcroft when the FBI spies on environmental and anti-war groups. We are asked to trust Dick Cheney about his energy task force. In America, "Trust" is becoming a code word for "shut up." Just because people are holding Theo and JH accountable doesn't mean they don't think they aren't working hard or that they are stupid. Those of us who don't blindly trust this deal just want to make sure Theo and JH know our loyalty isn't blind or undying. You need to earn it (ask Dan Duquette).
I can't speak for others, but my 'trust' in Theo and company is based on his accomplishments to date, not on any kind of blind faith in his infallibility. As I've posted before, I'm witholding my ultimate judgment on the ARod/Manny/Nomar/??? saga until I see who the Sox have acquired and will be keeping.
Jim D.
Oh, no ... not another 'DONE DEAL' post ... :eek
JD
JD
I may have found a sticking point on the restructuring aspect of the last two years of the deal (which seems to be what all the talk is about rather than the last three). According to /www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/mlbcontracts.htm Alex's contract calls for a 'Guaranteed salary increase for 2009&10' is it possible that the MLBPA is playing hardball with this phrase? 
if we get Magglio and A-Rod for Manny, Nomar and Willy...
We have a chance to be the greatest team ever...
Discuss.
> 
We have a chance to be the greatest team ever...
Discuss.
>
for those who don't have espn insider, they are reporting
Nomar Garciaparra:
Dec. 17 - New York Newsday is reporting the Red Sox and White Sox have agreed on a trade sending Garciaparra and reliever Scott Williamson to Chicago in exchange for Magglio Ordoņez. The deal is said to be contingent on Boston acquiring Alex Rodriguez for Manny Ramirez.
All previous reports indicated Nomar's likely destination as southern California, either the Angels or Dodgers, with L.A. emerging as the favorite. The Dodgers also had been interested in Ordonez, and one would have to think it's possible the White Sox could spin Nomar on to L.A.
Chicago GM Kenny Williams reportedly wanted plenty of young pitching in exchange for Ordoņez, but the Dodgers have been reluctant to part with their top prospects -- 19-year-old Greg Miller or hard-throwing Guillermo Mota. If the White Sox get Williamson from Boston, they could offer Nomar to the Dodgers for lesser prospects and still achieve their goals
i'll take Maggs any day of the week.
Nomar Garciaparra:
Dec. 17 - New York Newsday is reporting the Red Sox and White Sox have agreed on a trade sending Garciaparra and reliever Scott Williamson to Chicago in exchange for Magglio Ordoņez. The deal is said to be contingent on Boston acquiring Alex Rodriguez for Manny Ramirez.
All previous reports indicated Nomar's likely destination as southern California, either the Angels or Dodgers, with L.A. emerging as the favorite. The Dodgers also had been interested in Ordonez, and one would have to think it's possible the White Sox could spin Nomar on to L.A.
Chicago GM Kenny Williams reportedly wanted plenty of young pitching in exchange for Ordoņez, but the Dodgers have been reluctant to part with their top prospects -- 19-year-old Greg Miller or hard-throwing Guillermo Mota. If the White Sox get Williamson from Boston, they could offer Nomar to the Dodgers for lesser prospects and still achieve their goals
i'll take Maggs any day of the week.
espn insider is reporting:
Nomar Garciaparra:
Dec. 17 - New York Newsday is reporting the Red Sox and White Sox have agreed on a trade sending Garciaparra and reliever Scott Williamson to Chicago in exchange for Magglio Ordoņez. The deal is said to be contingent on Boston acquiring Alex Rodriguez for Manny Ramirez.
All previous reports indicated Nomar's likely destination as southern California, either the Angels or Dodgers, with L.A. emerging as the favorite. The Dodgers also had been interested in Ordonez, and one would have to think it's possible the White Sox could spin Nomar on to L.A.
Chicago GM Kenny Williams reportedly wanted plenty of young pitching in exchange for Ordoņez, but the Dodgers have been reluctant to part with their top prospects -- 19-year-old Greg Miller or hard-throwing Guillermo Mota. If the White Sox get Williamson from Boston, they could offer Nomar to the Dodgers for lesser prospects and still achieve their goals
posted for those who don't have access
Nomar Garciaparra:
Dec. 17 - New York Newsday is reporting the Red Sox and White Sox have agreed on a trade sending Garciaparra and reliever Scott Williamson to Chicago in exchange for Magglio Ordoņez. The deal is said to be contingent on Boston acquiring Alex Rodriguez for Manny Ramirez.
All previous reports indicated Nomar's likely destination as southern California, either the Angels or Dodgers, with L.A. emerging as the favorite. The Dodgers also had been interested in Ordonez, and one would have to think it's possible the White Sox could spin Nomar on to L.A.
Chicago GM Kenny Williams reportedly wanted plenty of young pitching in exchange for Ordoņez, but the Dodgers have been reluctant to part with their top prospects -- 19-year-old Greg Miller or hard-throwing Guillermo Mota. If the White Sox get Williamson from Boston, they could offer Nomar to the Dodgers for lesser prospects and still achieve their goals
posted for those who don't have access
As much as I hate to see Williamson go, I cant argue with Magglio Ordonez. Now if we can only include Kim as a part of the Manny deal to both sweeten that pot and to alleviate that 5 mill off the books.
If you take ARod + Magglio's $ It pretty much equals Nomar's Manny's, Kim's and Willy's.
If you take ARod + Magglio's $ It pretty much equals Nomar's Manny's, Kim's and Willy's.
Looks like the sox strike again !! Id deff take maggs any day of the week !! hell ya
A-Rod and Maggs for Manny & Nomar? Add in Schilling and Foulke? Are you kidding me? Wow!
ESPN has moved the A-Rod story to their front page: http://www.espn.com
Boston Globe is reporting talks with MLBPA will resume today in NYC:
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds..._union_mission/
And why is Karl Ravich breaking the scoops now at ESPN? Have they had enough of Gasbag's flip-flops?
ESPN has moved the A-Rod story to their front page: http://www.espn.com
Boston Globe is reporting talks with MLBPA will resume today in NYC:
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds..._union_mission/
And why is Karl Ravich breaking the scoops now at ESPN? Have they had enough of Gasbag's flip-flops?
QUOTE
- New York Newsday is reporting the Red Sox and White Sox have agreed on a trade sending Garciaparra and reliever Scott Williamson to Chicago in exchange for Magglio Ordoņez.
Does this mean the deal is final if the arod deal does go threw? Or are they just speculating
QUOTE(VerbalKint @ Dec 17 2003, 08:30 AM)
A question on the 'restructuring' aspect of this deal. If the last three years are 'voidable' by Alex doesn't that mean that is at the players discretion to do so? Why is the players union involved in that? Don't player options exist in contracts all over the place? Does the players unoin call and tell everyone they can't decline them since it would be devaluing the contract? Or is this about them being restructured in advance of when the permitted time frame to void them is listed in the contract? Then I could see why the MLBPA is involved. If Alex really wanted to come to Boston in theory could he arrange a 'gentleman's argeement' with JH to void those years when the time comes? Would anyone trust him to honor it? These 'voidable' years seem to be more than the typical players option and I'm not sure why they are different than the myriad of other players option that exist.
Basically according to current terms, A-Rod can't void the last three years until 2007. Now, my best guess is that the restructuring would involve giving A-Rod the right to void those 3 years now, and have the Red Sox add a 2 year 60 million dollar extension that also allows the 2006 and 2007 years to be frontweighted to possibly defer some of the salary burden from the extension. So theoretically the Sox give up one year on A-Rod's contract and save around $21m over the life of the whole deal and just eat the remaining $4m in the Manny deal, which spread out over 5 years means we'd be paying less than $1m / year for Manny (net) and the only downsides are paying A-Rod $30m for each of the 2008 and 2009 seasons (assuming we dont frontweight 06 and 07) and losing a year on his contract (not a big deal since the Sox will probably resign him in 2009 for a lot less). This scenario also voids the necessity to include a relief pitcher in the deal with Texas. Just my $0.02 though.
Not sure if my memory serves me correct, and I preface the fact that Newsday isn't the only insitution reporting the Nomar/Willy for Maggs trade, but wasn't this the same publication that went to press the day after Game 7 vs. the Yanks with an article about how the Red Sox won???????
Its not just newsday every paper and site is reporting this deal
QUOTE(BBaldacci @ Dec 17 2003, 09:24 AM)
Not sure if my memory serves me correct, and I preface the fact that Newsday isn't the only insitution reporting the Nomar/Willy for Maggs trade, but wasn't this the same publication that went to press the day after Game 7 vs. the Yanks with an article about how the Red Sox won???????
that was the Post.
>
QUOTE(Jonnyboy @ Dec 17 2003, 09:29 AM)
Its not just newsday every paper and site is reporting this deal
Isn't Magglio Ordonez a poor man's Manny(as far as attitude goes)?
Nice numbers, big contract, questionable desire?
Yankee Fans Demoralized!
Current results of the NY Newsday Poll which asks which team will win the AL Pennant:
77.2% - Red Sox
19.2% - Yankees
(3.6% unsure)
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-...&vote10642105=1
Current results of the NY Newsday Poll which asks which team will win the AL Pennant:
77.2% - Red Sox
19.2% - Yankees
(3.6% unsure)
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-...&vote10642105=1
QUOTE(Leephus Pitch @ Dec 17 2003, 09:33 AM)
QUOTE(Jonnyboy @ Dec 17 2003, 09:29 AM)
Its not just newsday every paper and site is reporting this deal
Isn't Magglio Ordonez a poor man's Manny(as far as attitude goes)?
Nice numbers, big contract, questionable desire?
i dont think so...
EEI saying he's a great clubhouse guy.
I'd really like to hear some talks that we've also got an contract extension on board for this guy.
I just read the Newsday article on the Nomar-Ordonez deal,
which seems pretty much in place.
I wonder if the Players Association has to approve this one as well?
If you pencil in Magglio batting 3rd and ARod 4th--the Sox haven't
skipped a bit in the batting order. Defensively, they've improved--
even in LF.
But moneywise, it's tough to see how Manny-Nomar for Magglio-ARod
is saving any money--which I thought was the main idea.
Perhaps, there are some intangibles here after all--like Manny's flakiness
and Nomar's agent.
Anyway, if they pull this off, King George is liable to go out and buy
the Eiffel Tower--and jump off it.
which seems pretty much in place.
I wonder if the Players Association has to approve this one as well?
If you pencil in Magglio batting 3rd and ARod 4th--the Sox haven't
skipped a bit in the batting order. Defensively, they've improved--
even in LF.
But moneywise, it's tough to see how Manny-Nomar for Magglio-ARod
is saving any money--which I thought was the main idea.
Perhaps, there are some intangibles here after all--like Manny's flakiness
and Nomar's agent.
Anyway, if they pull this off, King George is liable to go out and buy
the Eiffel Tower--and jump off it.
I am so giddy. Hopefully this turns out better than Thome day...
Did I miss the press conference???
Did I miss the press conference???
I like ordonez but this deal really doesn't work for me unless the sox can negotiate a long term deal with ordonez at less money than he is making this coming year; $14mil.
Why do the sox need to add williamson to the deal to make it happen? What kind of pitching prospects are the sox getting and are the sox keeping them or giving them to the rangers with a-rod? Seems like a lot to give up for what they get in return.
Why do the sox need to add williamson to the deal to make it happen? What kind of pitching prospects are the sox getting and are the sox keeping them or giving them to the rangers with a-rod? Seems like a lot to give up for what they get in return.
Maggs/AROD?? Come on - how can you not love this?!!?
Assuming we can sign Maggs at 12M per, this is a great move. And he more than makes up for Nomars bat.
Plus we can chant the CWS chant O E O Maggggg lio
Assuming we can sign Maggs at 12M per, this is a great move. And he more than makes up for Nomars bat.
Plus we can chant the CWS chant O E O Maggggg lio
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