I think immature is appropriate. Schiling, who has spent more time with him than any of us, said in his SOSH chat something to the effect that Kim had talent for a 24 y.o., and that he hoped that the events of the last few months helped him straighten his head. That sounds like a euphimism for the guy needs to grow up.

Of course it is harder for him than others because he comes from a different culture, but that can't excuse his behavior, it just helps to resolve the problem.

AP Reporting the Union has rejected the revised contract per Boston.com

Its been another excruciating day working my way toward carpal tunnel and costing my company money as I waste my time and thiers.

I now have to go Christmas shopping and I fully expect five hours at the mall and at Walmart and in line to pick up a lay away.

I expect a horrible evening. My fervent hope is that I switch on ESPN News with a breaking development of a done deal when I get home at about 10 or 11. My belief is that I will return to more muddled vague reports of "on again/off again".

Good night ladies and gentlemen. I will check in later.

rsb

"I can't feel my damn legs...and I see colors"

This just in on the AP wire ...

<B>URGENT<P>
<B>Union rejects changes to A-Rod's contract<P>
<B>Eds: AMs. Will be UPDATED.<P>
<B>By RONALD BLUM<P>
<B>AP Sports Writer<P>
NEW YORK (AP) _ The baseball players' union rejected Boston's proposed changes to Alex Rodriguez's contract Wednesday, jeopardizing trade talks between the Red Sox and Rangers.

Uh oh.

Someone posted Ordoñez's stats earlier, but a couple of things jumped out at me:



Check out how consistent his OBP is.

What happened to the stolen bases? He swiped 18 and 25 in 2000 and 2001 respectively, then they disappeared. One guess is that he might have been in a different spot in the lineup and then moved into the cleanup spot, thus decreasing his numbers.

If this indeed is the trade that is finalized (ARod, Ordoñez to Boston; Nomar, Williamson to CWS; Manny, CWS pitchers to Texas), color me happy. The only thing that would make me happier is if the Sox are able to sign Ordoñez to an extension. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have Nomar stay in Boston for his entire career; but at this point it appears the situation has disintegrated to the point of no return for both ARod and Nomar.

Earlier, there were some who questioned the Newsday account. While it appears most now believe it, there are other newspapers with similar accounts, including the Chicago Tribune and the Los Angeles Times.

I am setting a deadline of tonight at 10pm. Someone please call Gasbag and notify him that "Oil Can" of Baltimore, MD said that this deal must be "consumated" by that time. As far as the deal's "Parameters" tell him I said that, "We're still hammering it out".

The AP is just late to the party on what Orza has already commented on to USA Today.

How can there be any meaningful deadline except a self-imposed deadline by the parties doing the deal? Everyone wants to be in charge and leave their imprint.

Not to point out the obvious, but the question did say "since Ted Williams." I'd posit that Pedro and Clemens, along with Yaz, are the best since Ted. Boggs and Nomar follow.

A very similar thread appeared on the old board once upon a time. Of course, A-Rod wasn't part of the discussion then. He could be better than Yaz, but he has a long way to go. Also, A-Rod has never produced a season as good as Yaz's 1967.

Given how this trade is gonna be referenced for decades to come I can see why everyone is trying to get their nose in the picture.

Thanks didn't know you could refresh with F5...Learn knew computer stuff everyday.

Schillondahill

Not good. Will they keep trying or is that it?

AP really late we had the story just after 2 PM

Just heard on the a-p . Union rejects the sox restructuring of A-rod's contract and is jeoperdizing the possible blockbuster deal.

Yeah. I was out of the loop today from 12 until now, so I missed the earlier story on USA Today. This saga has officially reached the ridiculous level.

Selig has to set a deadline. It is only with his permission that the Sox can even negotiate with ARod. If he didn't set a deadline, we'd be waiting forever. It HAS been nearly 2 weeks as is.

When this crap started I was 1 week away from finals and looking forward to a short break between studying so I could watch the ARod press conference. Tomorrow night is my last final and there is still nothing to report. Crazy stuff.

But I have 3 thoughts/questions about what might happen if the deal dies at 5 pm tomorrow (and I subsequently drop dead from shock):

1) If the deal dies, do the Sox bite the bullet and just take ARod anyway? I say this is the most likely scenario because there is, as Art Martone basically said, so much stuff that's gone on and no one wants this deal to die. If this happens, the Sox get screwed on $$$ though because it sounds like they are going to have to send $$$ to Texas.

2) If the deal dies, is Nomar traded anyway? I think they have to trade Nomar after this. There is too much crap that's gone on and the Sox will want to make a deal. However, if there is no deal, it's tougher to get Ordonez because you have a full OF and there are all sorts of new complications.

3) If the deal dies, do Theo, Henry and Lucchino hold a press conference? I'd like to hear them explain what happened and what was said. Someone should really write a book about this deal -- there's been so much that's gone on and so many aspects of life in America are involved -- greed, power, revenge, television, entertainment, money, GW Bush, etc. Hey Art, are you interested?

[/QUOTE]
Not to point out the obvious, but the question did say "since Ted Williams." I'd posit that Pedro and Clemens, along with Yaz, are the best since Ted. Boggs and Nomar follow.

A very similar thread appeared on the old board once upon a time. Of course, A-Rod wasn't part of the discussion then. He could be better than Yaz, but he has a long way to go. Also, A-Rod has never produced a season as good as Yaz's 1967.[/QUOTE]

Your absolutely right.

Groves and Foxx technically qualify (part of their Sox playing days were after 1939) but the Ruth thing is a tad long in the tooth.

The earlier reference to Tris Speaker lead me to consider all players who played for Boston and I took the opportunity to boost a few of my favorites.

edited text

Gammons doing "Five Good Minutes" on PTI on ESPN at 5:40.

Agreed. This is absolutely otherworldly. Baseball has NEVER seen anything like this trade or non-trade or semi-trade ... whatever you'd like to call it.

FWIW, here's the update to the AP "Urgent" story. The italics are mine, as this is new info to me (been offline for several hours):

NEW YORK (AP) _ The baseball players' union rejected Boston's proposed changes to Alex Rodriguez's contract Wednesday, jeopardizing trade talks between the Red Sox and Rangers.

Rodriguez and Boston general manager Theo Epstein spent the day meeting with Scott Boras, the shortstop's agent, and Gene Orza, the union's No. 2 official.

Boras expects the parties to meet again Thursday, and Texas owner Tom Hicks set a Thursday evening deadline for an agreement that would send Rodriguez to Boston for Manny Ramirez in a swap of baseball's highest-paid players.

"The dialogue is continuing," Boras said.

Rodriguez has completed three seasons of his record $252 million, 10-year contract and Ramirez has finished three seasons of his $160 million, eight-year deal.
Boston wants Rodriguez to rework his contract, but baseball's collective bargaining agreement says deals can be reworked only to add benefits for players.

"We did suggest an offer the club could make to Alex," Orza said. "As was its right, the club chose not to make it."

Orza and Boras wouldn't detail Boston's proposal. Rodriguez's contract has $179 million remaining on it.

"The principle involved is a transcendent one, affecting all of Alex's fellow players," Orza said. "To his credit, Alex, from the outset, recognized this."

Margo - This is interesting, the italic portion. But all it says to me is it's going to take until tomorrow afternoon to happen. Unlike with Schilling, this is likely to take the duration of the final 24 hours.

That's Genius

it has to happen

JWH wants it
Hicks wants it
ARod wants it
Dirt Dog wants it

how can the union say no?

Tek's Quads - Yes, let's bring in an element that can be spun, granted illogically, as the Red Sox screwing The Jimmy Fund. The Sox wouldn't make that PR gamble for a million bucks (or $5 million).

Gasbag said on ESPNews that the changes were rejected, but more efforts would be made. Granted, his credibility isn't what it was, and no one likes him anymore, but why would management from both teams, who both want the deal, stop now?

This is Orza making clear to everyone (i.e. the players) that:

1) the Union isn't going to just rubber stamp this deal because it has a duty to the player's not to weaken the basic agreement and

2) that ARod is on board with this and is not going to walk away from the union or pull a Jordan and try to break it up for his pithy whims.

This also makes clear that one of Boston's requirements is that Rodriguez re-work this deal. That indicates that the Sox probably won't make the trade if a re-negotiation can't be worked out. We've been down this road before, with Schilling, and it worked out OK in the end -- so it will probably happen here as well.

[quote=MargoAdamsLoveChild,Dec 17 2003, 05:30 PM] [QUOTE]This saga has officially reached the ridiculous level.[/QUOTE
"The principle involved is a transcendent one, affecting all of Alex's fellow players" [/quote]
Given the 'market correction" that has occurred over the past couple of years, the union has to take a hard line on ANY contract negotiation that could be perceived as lowering players' salaries.

Make no mistake, the union wants no part of reducing the salary for their marquee player. They are one of the most powerful unions in the country, as well as being one of the coldest and most rigid groups ever to deal with. In their minds it'll set a precedent for future owners/GM's to weasel their clients out of the money on their contracts.

It's the Roe vs. Wade of MLB player contracts!

this is all about theo proving himself over last year's contreras fiasco,
radio silence- the way to be

Mikey, I added the fact that this is just an example. Why can't A-Rod pay for the guy on the stilts, Aramark's yellow jerseys, and the seventh inning chick with the broom? It's just a way of moving money around.

This is all I can see, I don't know why but this is all I can see. I need help.

After further review or maybe just trying to not believe that the season is going to be wrecked ( if deal dies ) i would say that it looks like everyone is getting involved and unless there is a press confrence by one of the big dogs in this deal then i am going to believe that the sox will work something out or take the boras proposed deal.
this just in:
"i just heard gammons live " he said the union is trying to kill the deal but he figures it will go down until 5pm tommorrow. "

In theo we trust!!!

Dirt Dog HAS to have it. He will suffer a fate worse than Saddam if this ever collapsed.

This is just high profile PR for the Union who want a piece of this bad boy before it's history.

HOLD THE LINE PEOPLE. If you don't have the stomach for it, again, may I suggest a James Bond marathon for the next 24 hours.

Lucchino will rip Orza's heart out if he queers this deal.

T some point dont you just think that JH and his desire to be the yanks will step forward and will understand that he will lose A-Rod and Magglio in addition to having to keep Manny and Nomar. This seems again to be a big stare down. And imagine having to explain this to Red Sox Nation.

Brittdad

Look, I've been against giving Texas anything more than Manny in return for A-Rod. So in one respect, it wouldn't bother me if this doesn't go down. Unfortunately, JH may have burned the bridge between the Sox and Nomar, so now we may be forced to do this, and at terms that I believe are excessive ($25M in cash and minor league prospects).

GW <_<

It's not just that they don't WANT to, it's that they CAN'T. The union has an obligation to the basic agreement and all of the players. The union has to fairly enforce the basic agreement for the benefit of the union, not one player, and it can't just rubber stamp this deal for either party. The fact that the union presented a contract to the Sox and the Sox rejected it is GIGANTIC. It's really hard to overstate how big that is. That means the Union is dictating whether or not this happens (unless the Sox just pick up the contract as is) and it's really out of the hands of Theo and ARod/Boras. Every other proposal that's made, from either party, is going to have to be as good (from the union's perspective) of what's already on the table. The Red Sox are going to have to blink or this won't get done.

Gammons has been getting more Face time than Paris Hilton on teenage boys P2P Sharing Applications


Schillondahill

Back to my last post and Gammons' shite credibility, he said at 5 that he thought it would be done, and now at 5:40 he's saying it's not a lock. He has more flip flops than the Cape in July. Just make it be over so I can finish my finals.

I'm sorry, I disagree.

I think that is the perception that the Union needs to give, but I have to believe that they have more business savy than to reject a deal that would put MLB's best player in its most its most visible role.

Reject the increased revenues/TV contracts/buzz on the street for a couple of million bucks on A-Rods inflated contract? They understand that in the long run if MLB increases its revenue, than the Union increases its member's salary. These guys didn't just step off the apple cart. This deal gets done because in the end, its good business.

But they will string it along as long as possible, because why not? They can only gain more by doing that.

Gammons on PTI on ESPN

Talking about Red Sox fans "paranoia and Calvinism", geez, you can't make this stuff up.

Watching all the drama with the Union roadblock, etc.,
one wonders what the NY/Steinbrenner take is on all of this--
and are they having any influence.

When it comes to inflated salaries and FAs, George has always been
the Union's best friend.

And after all, Boston competes with NY not only on the field
but also in the NE marketplace.

And ARod is a big marketing plum.

George can't be thrilled.

It's from an episode of Family Guy. Very funny.

I don't care about the Knicks, Nets, Jints, or Devils. Even less about the Isles.

Can -- They understand how big this is but they have an obligation to not water down the basic agreement by allowing a re-negotiation. From their perspective, a high profile cave sends the wrong message to owners and their players. It's not just some pithy obligation, it's a basic obligation that all unions have.

Why isn't the Union this tough with the drug policy? Orza and co. make me laugh.

I put put my faith with DD & JH to get this done. No worries.

This deal will not get done!!! I still like our chances in 2004!!! Nomar will resign or chance the market going lower next year and the Rangers will suck untill 2010

Simply because unions don't exist to police behavior...they exist solely to protect workers from business owners, which amounts to little more than facilitating the flow of money from the owners to the workers.

And what I'm saying is that the union thinks they will get both pieces. They're thinking they shouldn't have to reliquish money, and still get the biggest player in one of the biggest market.

I think it will get done. But I agree with you that our chances are still excellent with Nomar and Manny.

It's hard to believe that the union would reject any deal that BoreA$$ agrees to.

I understood him to say, at 5pm on ESPNews, that the deal had hit a snag but he still thought it would get done. What, exactly, did he say at 5:40 on PTI?

I agree that they won't allow A-Rod's contract to be watered down, but I don't think that they will be busting balls either. They have a few hours to sit on it and see if the Sox come back to them with a better contract for A-Rod. Why wouldn't they do that? In the end they will come together, again, because it is just good business and they would be stupid to do otherwise.