Look at paragraph 6 of the Uniform Player Contract. I think this is it, but not everyone agrees with me on my interpretation (it's at the end of the CBA).

Okay..I'm confused now!! I live in Maine and I could be driving down to Boston to join everyone on the Tobin Bridge...I wouldn't be surprised if Manny, Nomar, and AROD are there. Whats going on?

Does the word "chutzpah" mean anything to you, Mr. Orza?

I take some satisfaction in the probability that this decision may change the future role of the union in MLB. After all, how can one expect the owners to view future negotiations with this union leadership group?

As far as I know, Ted Williams was involved with two books.

Ted Williams Hit List written with Jim Prime

My Turn At Bat written with Jim Underwood.


My Turn at Bat is a good autobiography and is probably the one your referring to.

There are a couple of other books you might want to look at also.

"Hitter"- The life and turmoils of Ted Williams by Ed Lynn

The Williams Reader- A collection of Articles, essays..etc about the Boston Hall of Famer - edited by Lawrence Baldassaro

I would recommend any of these books except The Hit List unless your grandfather is into trivia and statistics about hitting. It's really a compendium of Ted's opinions and reflections on batting including a lot of detail on other players' hitting styles.

My personal opinion is any book about Teddy Ballgame is a good read.

Did someone say that JH said the deal is done SOSH website or is this just a rumor? What isn't or what is a rumor anymore these days?

What the f***, I thought this deal was done. Major league baseball should want this to happen and friggin do something about it. Do they want their best player rotting in Texas for years to come? This is ridiculous!!!!! The unions SUCKS!!!! AHHHHH - but we need to have faith in Theo and the Trio and hope they get this done, no matter the cost (well, to a certain extent obviously).

WE WANT A-ROD!!!!!!!!!!

If DD says not to worry, I believe it to be! I am putting in the Rocky DVD collection and pulling the curtains closed!!! thanks DD!!

"Best players who spent their best years in B unis:
#1 Ted Williams
#2 Tris Speaker
#3 Pedro Martinez"

Alluding to an earlier debate in a different forum, it's interesting that Speaker is on this list while Rice has been labeled as vastly overrated. I'm not saying Rice was better than Speaker - far from it - but Speaker only played 7 full years with us & Rice's 7 best years (even his best "seven consecutive" years) are darn good too. Speaker had 1862 total bases in his 7, while Rice had 2237 from '77-'83. The top 3 yearly slugging percentages all belong to Rice, and he had over 200 hits 3 times in those 7 years to Speaker's 1. I'm very aware that Speaker was a phenomenal defensive player, and there are differences in eras that make the offensive numbers hard to compare (Rice had a huge advantage in HRs, etc). My point is that Rice ranks right up there with anyone offensively if longevity isn't a factor.

I think I see what you are referring to, but I don't agree with the union that the word "diminished" is controlling here. The language of the provision is so grey that it could certainly support several interpretations, one of which an arbitrator may ultimately have to declare is the correct one. If that language is what the union is relying on, I think that leaves open a lot of possibilities for the Sox.

Just my take but... The Sox refusing to be bent over by Hicks and the Rangers is no reason to jump off the Tobin, not as if we'll be the 2004 equivalent of 2003's Tigers.

As someone who has been a SOSHer for three years plus, here is my take on Mr. Henry's post - it's the English teacher in me:

astonishing - adj) So surprisingly impressive as to stun or overwhelm; "such an enormous response was astonishing"; "an astounding achievement".

transcend - verb)To pass beyond the limits of: emotions that transcend understanding. To be greater than, as in intensity or power; surpass: love that transcends infatuation.

When one looks back on this time, one will be truly overwhelmed that these deals occurred in the end, trades that surpassed anything that had ever happened before - or since - in baseball history.

dead

In almost every negotiation, things go down to the 11th hour. How many times is the transit or sanitation strike averted just before the strike deadline? How many CBA's has baseball successfully negotiated before the players were set to walk? With this amount of money at stake, everyone is trying to get their best deal. The fact that a deadline has been established will be the factor that ends up getting this resolved. By this time tomorrow night, ARod and Mags will be in a Red Sox uniform. Worry not. We have one of the brightest owners and management teams in sports (although I never saw John Henry's genius exhibited as owner of the Florida Marlins).

Sure it is. I don't want to deal with the massive headache that would be picking up the pieces.

However, I have faith in DD and will not freefall from any high places until tomorrow.


Edit: Oh and did I mention the mind games? *cowers in a corner* I'm fragile and need special attention when it comes to these things.

one has to read into Henry's comments and assume the trade is dead.

We'll have a great team regardless, you're right. However, this deal has been talked about for way too long, and has gone way too far in negotiations to be killed now. Too many egos are hurt. It has to happen, and if it doesn't, we will never live it down. I can't fathom having to see the smug look on whinebrenner's face if this falls apart!!!!!

It could be dead but it could be alive and kicking!

i really dont think that it is NECESSARILY dead, because we can also assume that what he meant that the "end," which is ongoing, has been astonishing. right? geesh. this sucks. i wish he would have just kept that part to himself.

I can't imagine the sox giving up...JH cough over the money!

John Henry did not post the deal was done or not done...not sure why someone posted here that he stated the deal was done.

He stated "astonishing ending" "transcends bseball"

Jack Lamabe65:

I know this is slightly offtopic, but since I have nothing better to do while biding my time, I hope you can help me.

I used the word "trepidacious" today, and the lawyer to whom I was speaking said that he had never heard that word and didn't think it was really a word. Is it?

I'll use it in a baseball sentence to keep us on topic:

"The collective hearts of the Red Sox Nation are trepidacious in anticipation of the final resolution of the A-Rod for Manny trade."

Thank you.

i do believe a-rod would be the best redsox player since ted williams. a-rod is a guy who looks like he is going hit 700 hr (but havent we heard that about someone else before) and be the best player in the game for years to come. when it is all said and done a-rod ha a chance to be the greatest player of all time, so yes i do believe he is the best since mr. williams.

i think well all be applauding him tomorrow when it goes through and we look back at those comments as either purposely deceptive or an attempt at objective observation.

DD, where are you and your sources when we need you most? enough of these three word posts. we need some hardcore info to renew faith in these deals.

I know Mr. Webster says that trepidation is a word. Lets bust out the Scrabble while were waiting


Schillondahill

EDIT: Typo

Trepidation is a word. Trepidacious should be too. Especially in this context. Maybe we can compromise and say: The collective hearts of the Red Sox Nation are filled with trepidation in anticipation of the final resolution of the A-Rod for Manny trade."

Henry's comments are just fanning the flames a little bit. Doesn't really mean anything. We'll have to wait and see what develops.

First game 7, now this? The part I don't quite get is how are we to interpret the phrase "transcends baseball"? One would have to assume that the union and dealing with opposing ownership would still fit into the realm of baseball. Unless he means that both baseball teams wanted the deal done and an external group blocked it. But wouldn't there be alternatives? Other ways to balance out the cash? Is this a ploy to emotionally stun us so that when the trade goes down the hardcore Nomar fans won't feel so bad? I feel emotionally drained from this whole process, yet I can't stop looking at this forum wondering what is going to happen next.

Using the word Transcend is very ??
Either means the deal is above all other BB deals, or the Union is above all deals.

I believe a Clubhouse next year of a disgruntled Nomar and ever more lackadaisicle Ramirez, puts me in the "deal will get done mode".


Ordonez? well for 14 mill, Im on the Phone with Guerrero's Agent . 5 for 70 mill. If anything up the stakes for O's and or Marlins.
Injured back or not, Vlad is Special.

Nomar for the Dodgers trio of Mota Miller and whomever.

SW? Well tell Hicks take SW instead of cash.

If this is actually dead, and I'm not convinced that it is, I will forever think it was fate stepping in. Like when you talk about a no-hitter or something. Or when the board at Shea did what it did in '86. Have we not learned here in Boston not to count our chickens? Woe is me....

That being said, i hope this deal is still alive! Bring on A-Rod and Mags!

I cannot believe this. (Screw) Orza. EVERYONE (except Yankee fans) wanted this trade. My God... This is ridiculous. This DOES condescend baseball. I AM astonished.

Why does everyone assume that the Player's Association wants this deal to get done? Because it's 'good for baseball'? Silly me - I keep forgetting about all the other times they've sacrificed money or power for 'the good of baseball'. The union doesn't give a crap about what is good for the game of baseball or its fans ... only what is good for major league baseball players. Think about it - Fehr and Orza are looking around and seeing this 'market correction' affecting every team except Baltimore. Now, here comes Texas, Boston and Alex Rodriguez looking to 'restructure' the richest contract in sports. Heck, the union might as well erect a neon sign over their headquarters building that flashes 'A-ROD'S CONTRACT WAS A BIG MISTAKE'. Do you think they want to take the chance that the floodgates will open and every other big contract goes up for renegotiation?

Sorry, folks, but money is the way that these guys keep score. The 'good of baseball' and marketing opportunities are just so much fluff to them. All Orza and Fehr have to do is keep stalling. Then the Red Sox will be faced with two unsavory choices - walk away, or give in to Tom Hicks. If that happens, I hope the Sox are smart enough to just walk away and take their chances with Nomar and Manny in 2004.

Jim D.
(not feeling very positive right now)

DD, come on, hit us with something. pull us all back off the ledge- WTF?! 5pm cant get here quick enough tomorrow

First game 7, now this? The part I don't quite get is how are we to interpret the phrase "transcends baseball"? One would have to assume that the union and dealing with opposing ownership would still fit into the realm of baseball. Unless he means that both baseball teams wanted the deal done and an external group blocked it. But wouldn't there be alternatives? Other ways to balance out the cash? Is this a ploy to emotionally stun us so that when the trade goes down the hardcore Nomar fans won't feel so bad? I feel emotionally drained from this whole process, yet I can't stop looking at this forum wondering what is going to happen next.

I can never remember an offseason that has been filled with this much edge of your seat excitement. First, we watch Manny get placed on irrevocable waivers. Next, we wait until the end of a 72 hour window to sign Curt Schilling to an extension. We waited for 2 weeks to hear of Foulke's decision. And now this ARod deal is going down to the wire. Baseball this exciting in December? It's unheard of. But the lead on SportsCenter tonight. At this rate, spring training will be an anti-climax.

I am drained, I think I have to avoid this stuff, it is ruling my day, my week, my life. I need to go take a walk in the rain and get someperspective back.

Arrgh!

I think theres also merit to the point that in the end, this is another round of negotiations, this time with the media. Orza said it was off by a wide margin- so that was the initial offer. OK, now we know a little better our boundaries- lets counter offer. JWH is a smart guy, he sees that every single article on this trade carried the post he left at 426 AM this morning- so maybe hes just injecting doubt into the situation because he thinks it will help matters, no matter what. simply put, i dont think this deal is decided one way or another yet. lets hold on til the deadline. thats my guess.

I hope John Henry and the Sox brass don't feel 'the deal has gone too far to stop now'. That's a terrible state of mind to be in when one's negotiating a business deal. A leader must always be prepared to get up and walk away when the deal no longer is in their best interest, regardless of what others will say or think.

Jim D.

I actually punched a brick wall several times and broke my hand after the loss...just got the cast off of my hand 2 weeks ago. I had to live with the memory of that loss every time I couldn't use my hand. Painful...both the loss and my injury.

Okay, so say it falls through. What do we have now? A crying Nomar who we'll lose next season for nothing more than a draft pick. Ramirez who will get booed by fans because he wants to play for the MFY ? The bottom line, is that Hicks is acting like such a bad A**. All his comments really aggrevate me. Although he would never admit it, he needs it more than we do. The fans will hate their pretty boy that makes all this money. The players will resent him. More so than anything, his contract will hinder any chance they have of being, at the very best, mediocre. They will bend if need be, this deal needs to happen!!!!!!

I gotta say, I really dont think this is negative. Look at what hes saying- "ending." As in, its not over. My guess is hes taking a posture with us fans, as he has with nearly every post, of being a somewhat objective observer- like, taking a step back, stroking his chin as this heads to the wire and saying, "Damn, isnt this ending ASTONISHING?! Its beginning to transcend even baseball!" Like hes commenting on it as it heads towards the finish line to get us excited. Thats my take. It doesnt mean its definitely happening, just JWH chipping in. Honestly, I initially fell prey to the negativity surrounding it, but when i went back and calmly read it myself, I saw positivity. We'll see i guess, but really, I dont think its the end of the deal. Anyway, think about that- thatd be ridiculous! They still have another day to figure it out!

Not to mention, if the reason we're looking to restructure the deal is to pay for Manny, A-Rod's going to be fuming when he hears he can't play for a World Series team because Hicks wouldn't be satisfied with 81 million.

This better happen...

You guys are SICK....I love you all!


Schillondahill

I took it the same way. "ending" as in this is the final leg, less than 24 hours to go...this will be decided one way or another.

Anyone else feel like we should be creating a new support group, RSMBA, Red Sox Message Boards Annoynmous.

Me: "Hi Group, my name is Dave, I haven't done any work, had any sex, had a life outside of the Sox message boards since the Schilling trade. I have a problem. I still think that I'll have this problem until the Sox win the WS and until then I'll be useless."

Group: "Hi Dave, you are useless, but hey at least we're better than the Yankees"

I share your optimism JTB, but there's something that bothers me. JWH went back and edited his original post to include the "transcend" phrase. Now, when considering that, take into account what Orza said a few hours ago:



Why do I feel like I'm trying to break a code for the CIA?

No, a Nomar who will be playing the best baseball he possibly can to improve his chances of getting the $15-18 million per year contract he believes he deserves



Actually, two draft picks ... which might be more than we'll end up with if the Red Sox make a poor deal right now



Like Manny would notice? He'll be fine, and we'll all be cheering like crazy once he starts mashing the ball like we know he can.

Life will go on if this deal falls through.

Jim D.

[QUOTE]

I will join your support group, I need treatment, bigtime. In that regard, I decide to bow out and tuck my kids in bed.

Anon!

If Boras is the great super agent that everyone thinks he is, he has to broker this deal for his top client. It is clear that Arod wants to go to Boston and the Red Sox want him. Is leaving the union a possibility?

I am not one to believe in conspiracies but the fact that Major League Offices and the Players Association are headquartered in New York might lead one to think....do the MFY's have an influence on this?

Jim D. - that's my feeling exactly. And let's remember the problem with the union originated because Hicks insists that the Sox pony up more money even after saving almost $100M on A-Rod. Screw him, his team needs and wants this more than the Sox.

If JWH should walk away from this I'm sure the deal will be available again next year...except we'll get nothing when Nomar leaves for '05. After another last place finish maybe Hicks will be more reasonable, especially when the Sox make it to the WS without A-Rod.

Something tells me this will work out with A-Rod getting his current salary, maybe with minor tweaks, after Hicks settles for players instead of money.

have faith my fellow fans-trust the management theyll get it done