"'All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event- in the living act, the undoubted deed- there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me.'"

Strike through the mask Henry. Strike right through it.

I'm not a member of SoSh and I myself am upset that I can't view posts, but they are somewhat justified. Since Schilling posted there, the media has been picking through their site for taglines for their papers. Of course, they don't ask permission to use what they take and no one expects to see their posts in tomorrow's paper. But I don't think this site should resort to closing down. That is one of the attractions of this site...that you guys allow any Red Sox fan to post their thoughts. It would be nice if everyone knew how to spell and use the English language the way it was intended, but you can't have everything (just ask Gene Orza).

Yes, Alan, but look where it got Ahab!?

Easy now, Graf. There is a separate forum to talk about SoSH. It's very likely that the crushing traffic because of the rampant A-Rod speculation tonight has forced them to clam up because of network bandwidth issues, not their "click"-iness.

Where is the love?

DD any new information?? We haven't heard from you in a while....

i disagree. these are two great deals. if nomar played the outfield, we'd be making the nomar/ordonez deal without a second thought. even if you're so deluded that you think nomar's better, the fact that he's walking after this season makes it a good deal. this way we get something in return. if we don't trade him, we get nothing.

and the manny/arod deal is good on its own, despite the money issues. both contracts are ugly, but arod is definitely a notch above manny.

I was skimming the CBA right now, and frankly, it frightens me. Have a look see:

http://www.cbaforfans.com/cba9701.pdf

I think the vague section referred to earlier is Article XXIII(G)(1) which basically says that no Club or Player can try to avoid the Luxury Tax by any kind of subterfuge. It's unclear who enforces this section or even exactly what it means. It's probably right to say that involving the Union is a way to avoid this ending up in court. The CBA is so riddled with obfuscating legalese that a court case would be a mess.

And I'm a lawyer.

Oh please please just let this deal happen and all this nonsense stop.

...If a domino falls, can it be put back up?

As much as I personaly don't care for their site, I agree with you.

FYI, the powers that be have requested discussing this topic in the designated thread.

"The basic agreement contains a rule that requires any special covenant to be an actual or potential benefit to the player"-MLBPA

Hello, earth to morons, Arod wants to come to Boston. Isn't giving a player what he wants beneficial to that player?

This my friends is the "height of hypocrisy"

sid, Mags can walk at the end of this year, too. Do you think that the HQ has a better chance to sign Mags at a lower rate than Nomar? I think so. And, I agree with both trades. I wish that Williamson didn't have to go in this shuffle, however.

I think, if I read correctly, it's not that they have "veto power," but rather that they have the power to file a grievance. SoxinDC, I am pretty sure you know more about this than most people posting here -- Mascho too. I haven't taken a Labor Law class. Perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us.

It is my understanding that, as one of its powers, the union can file a grievance whenever it thinks that an approved contract between a player and a club is in violation of the basic agreement. If Rob Manfred says that a contract violates the basic agreement, then Orza can file a grievance as well. Although I have not read the remedies section of the basic agreement, it's my understanding (based on 3d party reporting) that the only remedy is an arbitrator.

So, based on the above paragraph, the union doesn't have veto power so much as it has the power to make things difficult. If the union was/is being outrageous, the Sox will probably submit the contract and let it go to arbitration. However, it seems that the Sox are really just pissed because Orza offered an outrageous deal. We don't know what that deal was, but with ARod scheduled to make a ton of money over those last few years, the Sox are going to have to come up with some pretty creative ways of giving him equal value.

EDIT -- An example of the media speaking without making sense or being clear -- Tim Kurkjian saying that Bud Selig "can't overrule the union." I thought the union's remedy was a grievance and not the approval of the contract. As an aside, Kurkjian says if the Sox can't get the deal re-worked, it ain't happening because Texas is getting 5-7M for Manny. Folks -- is that too much? 2 weeks ago most of us were saying it was.

....ESPN reporting, they think it'll happen...one reason being we (fans) have our expectations set...for this "all star team".....

sigh.

i do think that we'd have a much better chance of signing ordonez at a reasonable price (especially considering the market---look at the lack of interest in Vlad). i agree that it's a bummer about williamson---i wasn't convinced that we needed foulke, although i don't mind the upgrade.

Just wondering if any of the members of the bar on this thread (yes, calling out to the lawyers amongst us) might be able to produce the actual language of the Collective Bargaining Agreement (I've searched the web myself but have yet to find the applicable clause) and help us determine exactly what power the union has regarding this deal.

Some questions that I'd hope could be answered:

1) Can the union actually make a factual determination of what is an "actual or potential benefit to the player" in a restructured contract?

2) Can the Commissioner approve the deal without the union's agreement regarding such an "actual or potential" benefit in such a restructured agreement? And if he made such a move, would this go to an arbitrator?

I'm curious if the union has as much authority here as they actually believe they do.

Look forward to any insight!

You're absolutely right, it's about Manny..And I know Manny was on waivers and no one even cared...but there had to be some other deal that could have been worked out. I don't think that Chicago could take on his contract (I may be wrong..don't know all the numbers)...And perhaps the only team that would want to take on 20M is the only team that is paying a player more (Texas)... But I am curious if any here could think of any conceivable trade that could have gotten Manny out as desired, while not trading IMHO the face of the Red Sox. You think Red Sox, you think Nomar (or at least I do).

espn what? espnews, espn.com, sc? and who thinks itll happen? clarify?

I hope that the Red Sox do not get caught up in "The deal has to get done" hysteria. They need to reject any deal that won't significantly restructure that gargantuan contract or will send real money to Texas.

The Sox are in by far the strongest situation of the three parties. Texas has the incubus of the 180 mill it owes a player who has spoken openly of wanting to play elsewhere. ARod is doomed to playing out his career for a franchise with a dim future, in part because of that contract. If he allowed the union's decision to be arbitrated, he would be a pariah among his peers.

The Sox remain, arguably, the strongest team in the American League. They will have a somewhat miffed Manny and Nomar on their hands, but it's hard to imagine either letting it affect their play next season. If Nomar leaves next year - by no means a certainty - the Sox will have at least 11 mill available for his replacement.

Let's not be afraid to walk away from this one.

McAdam sounds very very pessimistic, calling it dead right now, unless selig steps in..blah blah

all on new england sports tonight on fsne, they usually repeat it about 300 times a night ifyou want to see it yourself

The PROJO's Sean McAdams was just on NE sports tonight with Gred and Dick, he said that the deal is dead unless Selig intervenes. He said that the Sox and Rangers had done everything they could do from their sides and that unless Selig can get the Union to back off Nomar and Manny will be with the Sox next year.

I didn't like the sound of his comments at all. Damn

Someone else suggested that the following provision may be the one that is causing the hold up. I tend to agree that this is the questionable provision, but I for one, don't believe that it is clear. Here it is...enjoy fellow lawyers and would-be lawyers:

6.© The amount stated in paragraph 2 and in special covenants hereof
which is payable to the Player for the period stated in paragraph 1
hereof shall not be diminished by any such assignment, except for failure
to report as provided in the next subparagraph (d).

The word transcendant has been thrown around quite a bit tonight and I think when we find out the terms of this deal we will see why. Of course, giving A-Rod what he wants is beneficial to him, but is it beneficial to the majority of major leaguers? Maybe not. If the Union lets A-Rod set all the terms and orchestrate this deal, then who is to say that all hell won't break loose with other players that want to change teams. Also, if A-Rod takes a huge paycut or is allowed to void his contract, who's to say that other players won't try to do the same thing?

The long winded point I am trying to make is that there appear to be some pretty big ramifications to this deal, and obviously the union (or Orza) is trying to make the terms more agreeable to them.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/7516573.htm

Teddy Greenstein of the Tribune says that the nomar for Maggs part of the deal is dead because the Mariners acquired Cirlilo and wouldnt want Jose Valentin anymore, and the white sox will not have Nomar at short and Jose at second.

i think that LA might have taken on manny's contract with the right deal, if we had acted early. still, i think that nomar had to go. nice guy, but he wasn't going to sign an extension and we were going to lose him with nothing in return. getting anything at all for him should make us all happy. getting an MVP replacement should make us sleep on Lansdowne, waiting for tickets.

really... i still cant understand how restructuring arod zillion dollar deal to make it a billion dollar deal effects the average player... is there an average player anymore? NO... they all make darn good money...

Seems like a no-brainer that Selig will intervene. He wants A-Rod in Boston as much as JHW, doesn't he? Plus he'll never get a better case to tackle the union on -- and he'll reduce the most bloated contract in sports. Win win win.

This does suck. The worst part about this (please bear with me I have just started to come into my Red Sox Fandom and I hope I get the terminology correct on this) is the fact that we are most likely going to have listen/read depending on where he decides to do it CHB's (Shaughnessy) talking about the Curse as being part of the reason this trade fell apart.


The Count

...sorry, sports center...and I'll screw his name....Kudjain (damn, not even close). He bascially said the union wants this to happen, and also cross referenced the fans. I think the arod thing got bumped due to Otto Graham's death.

this might be true. But the only way this happens is if we get ARod, who just increases the pay. ARod + Mags is pretty much = Nomar + Manny. even with their projected salaries. (It is a given Nomar will have one of his breakout years of over .340...might not be breakout for him 3 yrs ago but since the injury it is. Then we have to sign him for more money. Probably at least $16 million, not sure about mags tho).

And so the Drama continues!

It's all headed for either one side to cave or for MLB to take a huge black eye AGAIN.
Note to MLBPA A-Rod wants to restructure his contract he wants to go to a contending team. His contract is so large there is only one team he can go to at this time. So you are saying he has to play for the Texas Rangers. Wow I am interested to see how ugly this one gets for the union. Tomorrow should be interesting indeed.

The union will cave. If it takes too long, the Sox will simply get an extension from Selig to work things out with Hicks. Of course, Selig said he wouldn't extend the deadline on Tuesday. If he wasn't Bud Selig, I'd worry.

OK -- SoxinDC. An assignment is a trade. That means you can't reduce the amount of benefit of the contract as a result of a trade, unless you fail to report after you are traded -- where presumably the acquiring trade can void your contract or something. Seems pretty clear to me that this clause is the clause the union is relying on.

I am by no means an economist, but what makes this so difficult in terms of re-structuring seems to be the following -- ARod is due for $27-30M a year in the "option" years that he would obviously pick up. In present day dollars, that's an absolute ton of money, like $100M at least. So, the Sox have to somehow take the $20-25M ARod is making now, add the 5-7M Hicks is taking, and then subtract elsewhere in the contract to make everything equal. That's incredibly complex and you can see why the Sox previously indicated that no money would go to Texas. You have to hand it to Hicks, he has the Sox over a barrel right now and the Sox blinked. Now, the Sox will have to blink again with the union if this is going to get done.

I really hope they don't extend this...its gone on too long. I'm not getting enough sleep.

I definitely can understand that unfortunately, but as a Sox fan it sucks!

this is scary. if chicago really is out and LA is shifting focus to Vlad, we could really get screwed in all of this.

More lawyer-fun-time.

The grievance portion of the CBA is Article XI. As I read it (full disclosure: I'm a prosecutor, not a contracts guy), only a Player can initiate a grievance. See Art. XI(B). "Step 1. Any player who believes he has a justifiable grievance shall . . . ." Id. (emphasis added).

Again, the text of the CBA is available at: http://www.cbaforfans.com/cba9701.pdf

That being said, there's nothing to stope the Union from saying a restructing of a contract to lower the contract's value is a breach of the CBA, and then suing over it.

This is a disaster. But like Schilling's deal, I think the night is always darkest just before first light. This will get done; too much face to be lost otherwise.

Unions were absolutely integral in our history as a nation. Thousands of people died in industrial accidents due to unsafe working conditions... So too in sport were the unions critical. Players were once indentured servants for their respective teams. But times have changed.

It's pathetic to now see the self-absorbed player's union swooping in to block a deal that their constituent would like to get done. Another example of the union doing what's best for the union- and its leaders- while ignoring the rank and file.

And if this deal doesn't come to fruition because of their interloping, let's just say the Sox locker room won't be so chummy this year. Millar may have opened his mouth a little too soon!

(Sorry for the long post, but I've been following this all night at work, and now that I'm almost outta here, had to get some stuff off the old chest before I go home and find that 12 pages have been added to the thread!!!)

Hey, I like McAdams, but I think he's off-base on this one. For him to be right, one would have to assume that after the MLBPA reworking was rejected, all parties went home to tuck themselves in. No way that's happening. A-Rod, Lucchino, Theo, Henry ... they're all bulldogs, not to mention Boras, who's meeting right now with Orza (did I read that 31 pages previous?) trying to make things right.

There won't be much sleep (us included) until something happens. EVERYONE wants this to happen except the union, which, IMHO, has solid legal standing for their position.

That being said, I believe that NO union should be able to stand in the way of a union member who wants to make a move, no matter the money involved. In real life, I have the right to decide to quit a higher-paying job to take a lesser-paying job that would make me and my family more happy. (I in fact did this 2 years ago.) This situation has become ALL about these things that "transcend baseball" as JWH stated in his SoSH post. We're dealing with a clash of ideologies here, not with a simple player transaction.

That's sad for A-Rod, for the Rangers, for the Red Sox, and most of all, us, the fans.

But just to cover my arse, I will reiterate that I understand the important role that unions play in protecting the rights of workers, especially lower-paid workers. And I think the MLBPA has every right to do what it did Wednesday. It's just that MLB is such an alternate reality with its fancy old-style "commissioner" setup and its anti-trust exemption, it seems that the union might not need to fight as hard on something as ridiculous as getting tangibly equal value for a $25M a year contract.

Thanks for the lesson. The question for interpretation is what the term "diminished" means in this provision. Certainly it means "reduce" but that does not give the union the authority to decide whether or not a restructured contract has, in fact, been reduced. That is a matter for an arbitrator.

If the Ordonez deal is dead, the Sox should just pull this whole thing off the table. Seriously. They had it right there in front of them and then POOF, it's gone. There's no player who is going to approach Ordonez that's available, unless they are able to cobble together a deal for Jim Edmonds with the detritus of a Nomar to the Dodgers deal.

I think that Arods situation is an extreme. even if the union bends it would not show weakness because of the sheer size of this contract. not only that but, as people have stated before, the best thing for the union to do would be to blast this deal and then accept it at the end... it makes them look powerful (to be able to nix it) and then smart (to accept it).

If the deadline is extended, I bet Georgie from the Bronx will throw a temper-tantrum.

The CBA also allows the union to initiate a grievance on its own if the grievance does not involve player discipline.

haha... tim kurkijan?

After the ARod deal goes through, who gets resigned after the 2004 season?

John Henry is up to something and it smells kind of fishy.....kind of like a 1997 Florida Marlin

I believe John Henry is bad for baseball, if the Red Sox win the WS this year my thanks will be given to the Yawkey Family, Henry is a merchandise and ticket sale mogul, hence the Monster Seats and the future construction of the right field roof seats.

ARod is a great player and I would love to see him in a Sox uni, but I take Nomar for $80 million than Rodriguez for $179. I'll sacrifice the HR's especially when you play 81 games in a smallball ballpark.

Don't panic!
Nomar will find a place. He is the second best shortstop in the game and many teams will regain interest in him. There is no deadline to trade Nomar!

edmonds is not in the same league as ordonez. if it turned into a manny and nomar for arod and edmonds deal, i'd have to say no.

Sorry I don't know the basics of this quoting so I am going to repost the original line without editing.. but I want to respond to something about the cost in current dollars. Future dollars are always more than current dollars because of inflation and interest reasons. This means that the 3 years at 27-30 dollars would not be a total of $100 million in current dollars. It's actually less, at least from my limited understanding. This is why a lump sum payment for the lottery is ALWAYS less than the payout they advertise because it's annuitized.

The Count

I saw Sean McAdam on fox sports net tonight as well. McAdam did say that they have done all that they could possibly do. I caught the end of his interview with the other guys but he did say that Arod was willing to take less money per year and became a free agent sooner (does that mean he would get rid of his option years?). I only caught the end of this...so no exact quotes. I guess he said the money that Arod would get rid of would basically be going towards the money they would send towards Texas. This is what I got from watching McAdam for this short time....so don't hold me to it if I got what he said wrong.

McAdam pretty much says this is dead unless Selig does something....so I really don't know....But tomorrow is the deadline...still not sure if its 5pm or 6pm...I've heard both. He said after that if its not done then there is no chance for a deal and that is it...we keep Manny and Nomar..no matter how unhappy Nomar would be. One of the guys did mention something about Millars locker being next to one of theirs....guessing just to make a joke out of it all. So we will be the dysfunctional Red Sox again I'd assume.

I want the Arod/Ordonez deals to work out because that gives us an awesome ss locked up long term with also a very good bat in Ordonez....also if they want to re-sign Ordonez I would expect him to be in the 12M range (even though I think he'll make 14M in 2004)...So I think it would be very possible for Ordonez to get an extension(if thats the Sox plan).......as we know with Nomar there is no chance as to that happening (cause of this deal obviously and because of the rejections of the most recent Sox offers). Also, I know some people say that if this Arod deal does not get improved that Nomar will be ok....well I agree, I think he will have a great 2004....but I'd bet money on it that he would be out of here after 2004... thus we will be left with no awesome ss and Manny. Also, I think Manny would be the least affected out of this whole thing....he is Manny after all....

So I have a feeling that now my christmas can be ruined and Arod and Ordonez won't be under the Christmas tree....and then for the rest of the winter and every day of spring training and every day of the Sox season I will have to listen to the "deal that never happened" and how its affecting the Sox clubhouse....any time we lose a game I'm sure the media will say that this some how relates to it.

Excuse all irrational comments made by me....It is just that I hoped for this deal to get done...I didn't expect this mess.

[quote=siddffinch,Dec 17 2003, 11:40 PM] [/QUOTE]
i think that LA might have taken on manny's contract with the right deal, if we had acted early. still, i think that nomar had to go. nice guy, but he wasn't going to sign an extension and we were going to lose him with nothing in return. getting anything at all for him should make us all happy. getting an MVP replacement should make us sleep on Lansdowne, waiting for tickets. [/quote]
Right again! Getting Arod will make me sleep on Landsdowne. But I don't think that the possible deal to LA you suggested would have happened considering the ownership issues in LA right now. Another case of Duqette F@#king us again with the huge Manny contract....why did we have to get him at the height of the market?! Dammit! If it weren't for the contract, we could have swapped manny for mags and a prospect or two..such is the hand we were dealt..