SoxinDC- I just re-read my post and it sounded very condescending. My apologies. Judging from the context of the paragraph and the reporting surrounding this debacle, "diminished" seems to be whether a reasonable person would consider it equal or lesser value. The Vaughn trade is the example that I'm using. It's a lot easier though, to get deferred money for a no-trade or whatever that was.

As for the arbitration: What is the procedure for that? Doesn't the trade have to go through first, then the Commissioner's office approves, and then the union files a grievance?

As of this afternoon, the deal was apparantly dead.

Selig will step in tomorrow and try to broker a deal; if he can't, he will apparantly approve the contract and make the MLBPA take it to arbitration.

Sorry I can't give a link, or a source, but it's 100% no-BS true.

Can Selig legally interfere is the question now it seems (if the union does not bend)

The Ordonez deal is only dead if the Arod deal is dead. The ordonez deal will not happen if the Arod deal does not happen. This is obvious...as we can't play 2004 without a SS.

Does anyone know any e-mail address for the MLBPA? I think we have to voice our displeasure to them really hard!!!!!

article from Newsday. it appears MUCH more optimistic. It even refers to the deadlines as posturing, etc. Quotes Boras as saying everyone's still talking...

[quote=rico1024,Dec 17 2003, 11:56 PM] [QUOTE=siddffinch,Dec 17 2003, 11:40 PM] [/QUOTE]
i think that LA might have taken on manny's contract with the right deal, if we had acted early. still, i think that nomar had to go. nice guy, but he wasn't going to sign an extension and we were going to lose him with nothing in return. getting anything at all for him should make us all happy. getting an MVP replacement should make us sleep on Lansdowne, waiting for tickets. [/QUOTE]
Right again! Getting Arod will make me sleep on Landsdowne. But I don't think that the possible deal to LA you suggested would have happened considering the ownership issues in LA right now. Another case of Duqette F@#king us again with the huge Manny contract....why did we have to get him at the height of the market?! Dammit! If it weren't for the contract, we could have swapped manny for mags and a prospect or two..such is the hand we were dealt.. [/quote]
i do think that LA could have been an option---but only if the sox took a couple of LA's big contracts in return. still, i don't think that Texas was the ONLY option...

seriously, what is wrong with you?

This new ownership group has been nothing but positive, improving Fenway, improving the team, giving us one of the best Red Sox seasons ever, and now this overwhelmingly intense and awesome offseason.

There have been NO indications that there is any attempt to rip off the fanbase here in Boston, and until you see some shred of evidence to that effect, you're just being the type of whiny, complaining red sox fan that people like to portray us as.

Let's see. Marlins...dumped big salaries. 2004 Red Sox... added Schilling, Foulke and trying to add A-rod and Magglio Ordonez.



Why??



Is it written somewhere that team owners should not try to maximize revenue? I applaud JWH for trying to find ways to get more money out of Fenway, and hopefully keep it forever. You seem to be making JWH out to be a villain for taking the most revenue possible out of his property. Apply this logic to the CEO of any publicly traded company, i.e. GM is churning out too many cars, they shouldn't sell so many. It is silly.

BSG -- I was referring to a link someone posted earlier in the thread (like a half hour ago) that the deal with Ordonez was basically on life support because that Ordonez trade was contingent on the WS dealing their SS to Seattle.

I hope it's not true, but that leaves everything back at sq. one if it is.

BoSoxGirl, couldn't agree with your sentiments more. No matter how much Millar & others try to dismiss his Sportcenter comments, the Boston media are going to write about it relentlessly. It will be THE issue going into spring training, whether we like it or not.

ARTICLE II—Recognition
The Clubs recognize the Association as the sole and exclusive collective bargaining agent for all Major League Players, and individuals who may become Major League Players during the term of this Agreement, with regard to all terms and conditions of employment, provided that an individual Player shall be entitled to negotiate in accordance with the provisions set forth in this Agreement (1) an individual salary over and above the minimum requirements established by this Agreement and (2) Special Covenants to be included in an individual Uniform Player’s Contract, which actually or potentially provide additional benefits to the Player.

I don't know enough about this area to even make many guesses, but perhaps when the MLBPA says "veto" they mean they will start a grievance.

FWIW, I just called the number above for the MLBPA and it was REALLY easy to gain access to Orza's voicemail and cell phone number. I dont know, we should start an angry calling campaign
just a thought
(his ext is 230)

I trust you PSF....I really am trusting you...I am also trusting you because I want to believe this is true, I want to believe this will get done.

So if this goes to arbitration does that mean there is a chance we will not know after the Thursday deadline? or will they get an arbitration in there right away to get the deal done by the deadline? That is what I'm wondering.....

Any info you can send our way PSF would always be appreciated by me.
Thanks

Enough of the SoSH posts in this thread! As has already been noted, there is a separate thread about SoSH. Further postings about SoSH in this thread may be deleted (I've already deleted one so far).

Also - no profanity please (the deleted post also used profanity).

Please read the forum guidelines here.

Thank you.

FYI --- McAdam and Rosenthal of Fox Sports on Outside the Line with Bill Ley on ESPN right now opining on all things Red Sox. Super-interesting.

Damn unions SUCK! They are never so up in arms when a player is caught with drugs or beating his wife on any other such illicit & illegal activities. Yet they will stick their nose in every nook & cranny of a deal that BOTH sides want to get done in order to f' it up and say they are protecting the other players. BULLSH*T! They are protecting their own coffers (union dues). I hope Bud steps in and overrules them tomorrow, that would go a long way to putting them in their place.

And why do million dollar atheletes need a union anyway?? Are they really in danger of regressing to a sweatshop scenario these days? Are they afraid they will not be paid for overtime if they work (hah) more than 40 hours a week? No, its to protect the troublemakers, criminals, and lazy players from getting what they deserve. Get the unions out of baseball!

That's ok...I have thick skin. Anyway, there is no question that any matters of interpretation are solely for an arbitrator. I haven't looked through the grievance procedures yet, but generally there are several procedural steps that must be satisfied before it goes to an arbitrator as a last resort. Since MLB and the union will not agree on the meaning of the provision, the arbitrator will have to make a final determination once the union files a formal grievance. What the real question is what the remedy would be if the union wins. I don't know if they can force the trade to be rescinded, but they may be able to rescind the contract modifications.

Why can't the Red Sox pay AROD his full salary and then have AROD give a portion of the salary he was willing to reduce back to the Red Sox as a donation for player development.

edit: got rid of phone number, though its readily available

I rarely use "smilies," Cambridge, but this calls for one.


OPS+ for Speaker, first 7 seasons:
152
171
157
188
181
178
151

OPS+ for Rice, first 7 seasons:

128
121
148
158
154
123
117

Speaker crushes him every year, not including Speaker's huge advantage from baserunning and defense. It's great that you want to stick up for your man, Cambridge, but comparing him to an inner-circle Hall-of-Famer like Speaker is a losing proposition. Jim Rice was his generation's Magglio Ordonez. Speaker was his generation's Willie Mays, or Manny Ramirez with speed and Gold-Glove defense.

while thoughtful opinions sent to orza might be ok, i highly doubt that people calling his voicemail or personal cell phone is a good idea, so it would probably be better if you edit that information out and everyone backs off that avenue.

Agreed, Teddy. What are we, MFY fans?

Is it ironic that a New York paper would help make me feel a little bit more optimistic?

umm interesting.....

FYI, the 1997 Florida Marlins were owned by Wayne Heizinga, not JWH.

Are you kidding? I don't think angry messages will do anything, it will only make him ticked off more. But nice, critical comments might work.

Otto, this language is standard labor language. Once certified, the union becomes the exclusive bargaining representative for the employee. In sports, however, this is not the case. Athletes negotiate their own deals with the help of agents and therefore, the union has technically waived their right to exclusive representation. As your post suggests, those negotiated agreements must satisfy the minimum standards set forth in the CBA. Obviously, the A-Rod deal satisfies the minimum protections afforded by the agreement so there is no problem there. I think this is going to end up with a fight, but it may be too late for the Sox by then.

yes, i never advocated calling and screaming at him. i think itd be a constructive idea to call and voice an impassioned criticism or feeling- but any sort of profanity, etc, would only hurt the cause.

I can see both sides of this arguement...but I am going to have to side with "I applaud JWH for trying to find ways to get more money out of Fenway, and hopefully keep it forever" I don't think that we would EVER find ourselves in a 97 Marlins scenario. Look what they have had to do to ensure fans that they will never do that again. Besides, this is Boston, baby, and the Sox are FAR too important ("trancends" everything else in Mass?) to ever have a new ownership team come in, give us our greatest day, then dump everyone so that we look like a friggen Atlantic Coast league team. Christ, they would have to enter the witness protection program and move to another country. JWH & CO have a plan. They are obviously trying to address our FA situation next year. Fear not, my friends...we've got Theo

no amount of messages are going to change his mind on this issue (i realize i don't know the man), and as a professional i have to assume he wouldn't decide to say no to this because he got some phone calls from angry sox fans.

That said, comport yourself with class and realize that this has nothing to do with you, me, or any other common fan, and that as much as we'd all love to help the sox (celtic pride anyone?), you have to sit by and wait.

This deal has to happen. There is no way it can't. Deals have been dead and then reborn so many times. I really feel that Selig wants to milk this for as long as he can as a marketing ploy, the any news is good news mindset. This will get done, the hype will be carried into the season, then whatever happens next year's offseason might be even more of a rollercoaster for us with all the pending FA's.

I think I'm giving up for the night, doesn't look like we'll be getting any more news tonight. Hopefully I'll awake in the morning and hear that they have reached agreement. I still think its quite pitiful of Orza to run out on one of his members in a critical time after denying the approval of the restructuring. Hope you're enjoying the golf course Gene.

Even a courteous, polite message may not be a good thing either. Think about it, if you had 50 messages on your work phone or cellphone all about the same thing, even if they are nice, you'd be ticked. I know I sure would be!

yeah, if youre gonna call, show em that sox fans can be and are extremely intelligent and impassioned, but NOT profane or obnoxious. in other words, dont be a mfy fan.

We should probably get back to talking about the team and not the fricken union. What does everyone think about Nomar playing for this team next year? How is his relationship with Millar going to be affected and how will team chemistry affect our chances of winning this year? I wonder if Gehrig38 knew what he was getting himself into.

If this deal falls through, this season will make or break Terry Francona. Millar, Nomar, Manny, Merloni, and others will seperate themselves and create factions and Francona will need to prove to RSN that he has the ability to control a team with many different personalities.

My opinion is that this will blow over as the season is 4 months away. There will be hard feelings yes, but the players will understand that it will be in their best interest if they stand together instead of standing apart.

um -- that was very creative to post Orza's work number, but we don't want to become the story. That's why a certain unnamed web site officially jumped the shark (Bob Lobel ran my quote as his lead at 10:30).

SoxinDC -- where do you see this going then? If there is no time for the Sox to get this done, we are really left with this trade is not going to happen unless they can re-structure ARod's deal in a manner that the union will agree with.

If the remedy is that the old contract is re-instated, that kind of screws the Red Sox, so that would seriously chill the likelihood of this ever getting to Selig.

And wouldn't MLB fast track the arbitration so it would be decided within 2-3 weeks tops?

Their website is at MLBPA. They have a contacts page with telephone/fax numbers and the address, but the only email address is feedback@mlbpa.org.

Please do not generalize by saying that 'unions suck'.

It's been discussed that the union has nothing to do with the players' drug activities. The union is simply there to protect players from ownership and getting shortchanged on contracts. The can dictate steroid and drug testing policy when negotiating the CBA, but what are they going to do when a player gets caught? Veto the player?

Selig allowing the deal to pass through would certainly bring a lawsuit, not 'put them in their place'. Unions are important.

Million dollar athletes need a union otherwise ownership could just suspend players for BS reasons whenever a losing season seems imminent and save on paying them. The union is there to protect players, although in this case they seem to be working only for themselves.

Edit: Original post deleted, so edited for content.

Just listening to ESPNRadio... Phil Rogers from the Chicago Trib said he thinks the deal will go down, not only b/c of the BOS/TX angle, but b/c of the CWS angle... I think EVERYONE deep down thinks this deal (and the other related side deals) will go down. Simply a matter of when...

Not that you probably don't know, but there is a thread on this...although there are very few in there....

If A-Rod comes here, you all will be singing a different tune after a couple of seasons of .325, 60 home run, 150+ RBI production. Alex has the ability to turn a game with one swing fo the bat, and his ability to change a game and take advantage of a pitcher's mistakes will make him legendary.

Add that to his fantastic defense, good speed, and ability to live with the media and he may live up to the reputation of .406.

Hi Bambam

I totally agree with your assessment. This horse left the barn a long time ago.
The union issue is a problem, but is it an unmovable problem?
I say the Sox braintrust is back at the drawing board now, trying to reconfigure it.
I won't be surprised at all if there's a breakthrough overnight.

AP: Orza responded to Manfred's comment, which I have included for contextual sake (new comment in bold):



Then Orza responded to Lucchino (new quote in bold):

I see a couple of possible outcomes:

1) Selig approves, the union files a grievance and wins, the contract modifications are rescinded and the Sox are stuck paying money to Texas and all of A-Rod's existing contract -- this is bad

2) Selig approves, the union files a grievance and wins, and the arbitrator voids the trade -- this is worse

3) Selig approves, the union files and loses...we win big

4) Selig is scared to lose to the union for fear that it sets a bad precedent, he refuses to step in and the deal dies (unless Hicks stops being a prick) -- very bad

5) Hicks stops being a prick and the deal goes through straight up -- I like this

In the event that a grievance is filed, it will take quite a while to get in front of an arbitrator. There are some matters in the CBA that are subject to an expedited process, but I'm not sure this would be one of those. Although arb. hearings are not trials, they do require some extensive preparation so it can not happen immediately. In the meantime, our trade partners will probably seek alternatives and the trade will die.

Just my take.

I was watching Fox New England Sports Talk and they guys felt that there was a distinct possibility of this contract situation going to a 3rd party. Arbitration if you will.

Right now......this looks like one big cluster####.

SoxinDC, If you had to take your best guess, with all parameters that are involved IE...labor union - as we know now, do you think the trade will occur?

I think we are going to end up with another Clemens situation with him here next year. He says he wants to stay here, yet he wouldn't sign the contracts offered to him or even acknowledge them from what the owners said earlier this week. I'm afraid he'll do exactly what Roger did, get himself all in shape, have a banner year, then head off shopping in free agency for the biggest buck after having an absolutely pitiful and pathetic September & October this year. We ended up getting no Clemens & nothing in return then, lets get something good for Nomar now while we can instead of watching him ride off into the sunset next October.

This is not the same Nomar that played here in 1999. I don't believe the team has been his main focus since 2000 or 2001. Remember that he waited until April to have his wrist operated on back then and was basically useless for that entire season. Why not get it done in October, November, December, January, February?? Then this year he schedules his wedding for barely a month after the end of the post season. Did he think they wouldn't be good enough to get into the post season? If so, bad attitude. If not, then really poor planning. You can't be a month away from a wedding and concentrating on WINNING the world series, and he proved that so well. If his focus was on the team and winning it all, he would have scheduled it for early next year or even December. AND he would have sat himself down at some point during his 0-for post season appearances, since he knew Grady never would 'out of respect'.

first of all i would like to say hi to the nation.....new member here,but a long time sufferen bosox fan....just one question...if this deal does not go down what does this do to the chemistry to this team......i mean you have a new manager(who in my eye's his not proven nothing to my)can he hold this team together and not turn it into a media circus........or do the sox just get this deal done and go from there...p.s i have to cheer the team before the player......(thanks #5 you will be missed)

IMO, if Nomar and Manny are on the team next year:

Millar is going to be the bad guy, you can put that in the bank. First of all, he was a replacement player so he already walks into any clubhouse with a scarlet SCAB on his chest. Then, he pontificates on his teammate's negotiations and suggests that his teammate was either 1) stupid or 2) disingenuous about really wanting to be in Boston. There's gotta be some sort of unwritten rule among teammates that you don't rip your teammates for not taking a contract. I mean, Nomar feels bad enough, he doesn't need some scab telling him how to negotiated a contract. Tim Wakefield, Nomar, Damon and other union guys on the team are totally going to shut him out. Does that affect the on-field production? Probably not, but Millar hit like .230 in the 2nd half so it's not like he's the second coming of Jim Rice.

Nomar is going to put up his numbers. Nomar is going to experience a re-birth of his relationship with the fans, who will 1) feel guilty for wanting ARod so bad and 2) realize that he is probably gone and, after this episode, who can blame him.

Manny is going to be Manny, goofing around and swinging at butterflies.

JWH is going to have a tough year. Dealing with Nomar is going to be a lot tougher (although he will win brownie points from the owners for taking on the union). I doubt he ever speaks with Nomar again.

As far as the on-field product, it's pretty clear that the same chemistry of last year's team is going to be gone. However, the pitching is vastly improved and they should win at least 90 even if Manny and Nomar both have sub-par years at the plate. I'd like to see some projections on this!

ESPN claimed even though Bud Selig has an incredible ammount of power he can not veto the union. Basically because the player's union is one of the strongest unions in the country. But apparently there are some loop-holes that would allow the rejection by the union to be appealed...honestly it just gets to complicated to be solved it seems.

But to reiterate what everyone else has stated including that Chicago columnist it really has to go through. Too many parties are too far in to this deal to go back. Even if they do not meet the 6 pm deadline the deal will still get done eventually it seems.

Should be an interesting night of negotiating... hope Theo and the rest of the gang down and New York are caffeinated enough to stay up through the night getting this deal done.