Reading this site, you'd never guess that the RedSox have the best offense in baseball - one that set the major league record for slugging. The desire to get Arod has distorted our perceptions.  Everyone assumes we won't be able to get an extension on Nomar. Why? So he turned down a good deal a year ago and a not as good one a month ago.  If the Arod deal doesn't go through Theo has 3 months to negotiate an extension. Nomar, understandably, pays very little attention to the media. Henry has plenty of time to get refocused.

I just don't see the wisdom of the Red Sox trading:

Manny Ramirez
Nomar Garciapara
Scott Williamson
Jon Lester plus giving away
$3-5 million in cash a year for 5 years ($15 million - $25 million)

for

Alex Rodriquez
Magglio Ordonez

Especially when you consider that it won't even improve the team's OPS statistics (the most important of all offensive statistics).

A-Rod didn't say much on the Today show, except he'd love to play in the Northeast where the fans are so passionate about baseball. Also was given Rangers, Sox, Yanks caps and quickly moved Yanks cap to bottom of stack and Sox on top.

Gotta like that. B)

Agree on Manny showing in AZ...he'll probably forget his glove too...

"Right now, Matt, it is in the hands of the players association and the owners." A-Rod on The Today Show

Boras has convinced A-Rod not to work with the Sox on this one. Orza probably has as well. He's nothing more than a neutral third party.

THANK YOU MR. ORZA!!! for saving us from ourselves.

I just don't see the wisdom of the Red Sox trading:

Manny Ramirez
Nomar Garciapara
Scott Williamson
Jon Lester plus giving away
$3-5 million in cash a year for 5 years ($15 million - $25 million)

for

Alex Rodriquez
Magglio Ordonez

Especially when you consider that it won't even improve the team's OPS statistics (the most important of all offensive statistics).

A message for John, Larry, and Theo:

Just walk away. No real fan will be disappointed by your walking away from a bad deal.

Below is a snapshot of the 2003 Red Sox starting nine. This team's average OPS based on the individual players career average OPS is .848

Damon, CF
Garciaparra, SS
Walker, 2B
Ramirez, LF
Ortiz, DH
Mueller, 3B
Varitek, C
Millar, 1B
Nixon, RF

Now, take a look at how a redesigned 2004 Red Sox would look assuming a pick up of A-Rod, Ordonez, and a middling second baseman with a career average OPS of .740. The OPS for the team actually DROPS to .834

Damon, CF
A-Rod, SS
Ordonez, RF
Anderson/Walker-type
Ortiz, DH
Mueller, 3B
Varitek, C
Millar, 1B
Nixon, LF

So, yes, picking up Foulke and Schilling is really important on the pitching side, but let's not fool ourselves into believing that these proposed trades improve our offense...they don't! And at what increased cost for 2004? With $$ going to Texas for Manny's salary plus $$ for A-rod plus more money for Magglio, we could be talking up to $10 million more this year (minus Williamson minus Lester).

How is this all good again?????? I forget

Below is a snapshot of the 2003 Red Sox starting nine. This team's average OPS based on the individual players career average OPS is .848

Damon, CF
Garciaparra, SS
Walker, 2B
Ramirez, LF
Ortiz, DH
Mueller, 3B
Varitek, C
Millar, 1B
Nixon, RF

Now, take a look at how a redesigned 2004 Red Sox would look assuming a pick up of A-Rod, Ordonez, and a middling second baseman with a career average OPS of .740. The OPS for the team actually DROPS to .834

Damon, CF
A-Rod, SS
Ordonez, RF
Anderson/Walker-type
Ortiz, DH
Mueller, 3B
Varitek, C
Millar, 1B
Nixon, LF

So, yes, picking up Foulke and Schilling is really important on the pitching side, but let's not fool ourselves into believing that these proposed trades improve our offense...they don't! And at what increased cost for 2004? With $$ going to Texas for Manny's salary plus $$ for A-rod plus more money for Magglio, we could be talking up to $10 million more this year (minus Williamson minus Lester).

How is this all good again?????? I forget

THANK YOU MR. ORZA!!! for saving us from ourselves.

I just don't see the wisdom of the Red Sox trading:

Manny Ramirez
Nomar Garciapara
Scott Williamson
Jon Lester plus giving away
$3-5 million in cash a year for 5 years ($15 million - $25 million)

for

Alex Rodriquez
Magglio Ordonez

Especially when you consider that it won't even improve the team's OPS statistics (the most important of all offensive statistics).

A message for John, Larry, and Theo:

Just walk away. No real fan will be disappointed by your walking away from a bad deal.

Explain to me how it lowers the OPS if you are taking away the 2003 versions of Nomar (.869) and Manny (1.014) and adding Arod (.996) and Ordonez (.926).  Not to mention that Arod and Ordonez are likely to increase OPS in 2004 to be in line w/ recent years while Manny and Nomar will likely stay the same.

You can't just willy-nilly choose your stats....

Fans always get into trouble with stats when they say things like the guys we are getting will get better and the guys we are trading away are likely to get worse. Why do you say that? What is your evidence? What proof do you have?

The best predictor of future performance is past performance. To assess what is "most likely to happen in the future" it is only correct to understand what "definately" happened in the past...and that is career performance.

Yes, players will sometimes play above or below their average career performance, but they also are likely to revert to that average over time.

Wishful thinking that the new guys on the team will get better while the old guys traded away will get worse is just that...wishful thinking and that is no way to run a baseball team.

About an hour ago ESPN radio had a guy reporting that the Sox wanted A-Rod to take a $30M cut over the life of the contract (compares roughly to the $5M/year the Rangers want the Sox to pay for Manny). In exchange A-Rod would get to be a free agent sooner. Union said that was not enough to offset the $30M. The source said Orza came back with a deal that involved a $13-14M pay cut over the term and the Sox rejected it.

I don't see the teams and MLB fighting the union on this issue. It would tie the thing up for weeks in arbitration. JWH will move on. I see this as mostly Hicks' fault for insisting on too much money along with Manny with 2nd place blame on Orza and the union. I suppose the Sox and Rangers might decide to split the difference ($30-$14=$16 difference, then $8M giveback from both sides) but given what I've read about Hicks I don't see that happening. His team is a shambles on the field and in the clubhouse and it looks like he's willing to keep it that way.

Edited - typos

Wishful thinking that the new guys on the team will get better while the old guys traded away will get worse is just that...wishful thinking and that is no way to run a baseball team.

At some point, some of you Anti-Arods have to recognize that he's the best player in baseball and that he will have a very positive impact on the club. Imagine, in 3 years he will be going for HR number 500 in Fenway park, not to mention that he will be batting in an already potent lineup where his numbers are sure to be fantastic. This guy put up MVP numbers with minimal protection in the lineup...imagine what he could do with a guy like Magglio or even Ortiz behind him. I think it's fair to say that we're giving up a lot, but this will be the biggest acquisition in Red Sox history.

I wouldn't blame the trio for walking away at this point but I agree it's most likely posturing - All sides are trying to get the upper hand (including ChiSox with this mornings deal dead on Ordonez leak) -

Too much time is being wasted playing games with Hicks and Orza. And I don't want help from Bud Selig. He has proven to be, time and again, an idiot.

Too much time is being wasted playing games with Hicks and Orza. And I don't want help from Bud Selig.  He has proven to be, time and again, an idiot.

And another thing. Nomar is on the decline. Decline, people! Compare his stas before the injury and after the injury. Look at his defense. Look at his stats last year in September and October (a.k.a. crunch time). Drew Bledsoe wasn't a popular trade either, but what has he done in Buffalo? D E C L I N E

Flame away.

Amen brother!

All that being said with options of 1) mess of making deal happen vs. 2) mess of no deal happening


I think #2 is worse.

A-Rod: I'll only go Boston with union approval
By Ronald Blum, Associated Press, 12/18/2003

NEW YORK -- Alex Rodriguez is willing to go to the Red Sox only if Boston restructures his contract in a manner that gains approval from the players' association.

Boston and Texas said Wednesday they settled on all the players involved in the trade. And the Red Sox and A-Rod agreed to restructure the shortstop's record $252 million contract, Rangers owner Tom Hicks said.

But in a rare move, the union intervened and rejected the agreement, drawing criticism from both teams.

Commissioner Bud Selig set a 5 p.m. Thursday deadline for the trade to be completed. He might also go against the union and approve the restructuring, likely forcing the matter to arbitration.

"In the spirit of cooperation, I advised the Red Sox I am willing to restructure my contract, but only within the guidelines prescribed by union officials," Rodriguez said Thursday in a statement he read to The Associated Press. "I recognize the principle involved, and fully support the need to protect the interests of my fellow players.

"If my transfer to the Red Sox is to occur, it must be done with consideration of the interests of all major league players, not just one. Any statements by club officials suggesting my position is different than stated is inaccurate and unfortunate."

His agent said it was up to the Red Sox to find a way to restructure his client's contract without reducing its value, which would allow the proposed blockbuster trade for Manny Ramirez to take place.

"It's in the teams' hands," agent Scott Boras said Thursday. "Unless Boston comes back with a proposal that meets the union's criteria, then the deal will not get done."

Because union official Gene Orza and management lawyer Rob Manfred traveled to Florida for Bubba Trammell's grievance hearing Thursday, the deadline may have to be extended.

If the deal does go through, Boston would likely trade longtime shortstop Nomar Garciaparra, possibly to the Chicago White Sox.

"Given the impending deadline imposed by the office of the commissioner, the actions of the players' association may, unfortunately, determine this issue," Hicks said.

The commissioner's office said it was studying the agreement between Rodriguez and the Red Sox, but Orza said it was unacceptable.

"It was clear it crossed the line ... and by a huge margin," Orza said after meeting with Rodriguez, his agent and Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein. "We did suggest an offer the club could make to Alex that would not do that. As was its right, the club chose not to make it."

Manfred challenged the union's interpretation.

"The basic agreement contains a rule that requires any special covenant to be an actual or potential benefit to the player," Manfred said. "In a situation like the current situation, where there was a restructuring, where the player was getting something and the club was getting something, Gene Orza is not the final arbitrator on whether the restructuring provides an actual or potential benefit to the player. The commissioner currently is considering his legal options in consultation with the two teams."

After reaching Florida, Orza responded: "Fortunately, perjury charges attend false testimony in arbitrations, and I know what Rob thinks about what he now characterizes as this attempted 'restructuring' of Alex's contract. So I'm not particularly worried about what he's saying in the press."

While no one detailed the agreement between Rodriguez and the Red Sox, Boston president Larry Lucchino said the union proposed "radical changes."

The agreement called for some salary to be reduced and some to be deferred in exchange for giving Rodriguez the right to become a free agent earlier in the deal, a high-ranking baseball official said on the condition of anonymity.

Currently, Rodriguez can end the contract after the 2007 season. He also can end it after 2008 or 2009 unless he gets an annual increase from $27 million to either $32 million or $1 million above the largest salary of any position player.

"It is a sad day when the players' association thwarts the will of its members," Lucchino said. "The players' association asserts that it supports individual negotiations, freedom of choice and player mobility. However, in this high-profile instance, their action contradicts this and is contrary to the desires of the player."

That's not the way Orza saw it.

"All of the players and agents who have dealt with Larry these many years will be gratified to know that he still has the players' interests, as opposed to the clubs', uppermost in his mind and deepest in his heart," he said.

If Selig approves the restructuring and the union files a grievance, the case would go to Shyam Das, baseball's arbitrator.

Rodriguez hit .298 with an AL-leading 47 home runs and 118 RBIs last season. Ramirez, an outfielder, hit .325 with 37 homers and 104 RBIs.

Yankees owner George Steinbrenner didn't think the trade would go through.

"But if I had Nomar," he added, "I wouldn't trade him because of how much he means to that team and that city."

AP Sports Writers Jimmy Golen in Boston, Stephen Hawkins in Dallas and Ben Walker in New York contributed to this report

© Copyright 2003 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


© Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company

In case anybody wants to call the union and "voice your support" the # is xxxxxxxxxxxxx. Just in case your interested.

Yeah I just spoke with Rebecca, she said no deal has been made as of yet, but she feels that it will get done today.

Yankees owner George Steinbrenner didn't think the trade would go through.

"But if I had Nomar," he added, "I wouldn't trade him because of how much he means to that team and that city."

Yeah I just spoke with Rebecca, she said no deal has been made as of yet, but she feels that it will get done today.