EEI is reporting there were no late night talks last night about this issue and that Theo Epstein and Co. all flew back to Boston last night and that the only way this deal gets done is if either Hicks or Henry cave in on the others demands. Hicks would have to back off his money demands which would make it so no restructuring is needed, or Henry would have to accept Hicks deal and pay more money.

Nomar Garciaparra's start to the 2003 season was consistent with his career norms. The .970 OPS is fine. I split his season after Red Sox game number 82 because he went into a bad slump from game 83 through game 92 when he went three for 41.In actuality, he played 80 games in the first part and 76 in the second. [Note: I simply used walks, hits, and at bats to calculate his OBP, so there will be a slight difference from actual stats].



Given the dichotomy noted in his season stats (119 hits to 79 hits, for example), I don't think you can blame his dimished production for the season on the wrist injury. He may have reinjured the wrist or it may have been an entirely different cause, but he started the year not far off the pace he had in the 1999 and 2000 seasons.

I think its going to come down to Hicks and JH in the end.

That puts the ball right back in Hicks' court. No way Henry backs down.

Here is how this will play out..IMHO

Sox tried to cut $30 off Arod's contract...union rejected....but countered with $13-$14. That shows that it's being negotiated.

Hicks wants $5m/yr and the $30m a year shaving would have gave him that.


Let's say, the Union and Sox negotiate a shaving of $20m off the contract.(with obvious same benefit back to Arod so Union saves face) There are 5 years left on Manny's contract....so $20m to Hicks is $4m a year....just $1m off what he wanted.


So, either Hicks gives into the $1m a year...or worse case...Sox kick in the $1m a year to get the deal done. Bottom line..this deal gets done...it's too close not to.

Now, this opinion is based on the article that states a source said that the union countered with Arod's contract reduced by $13-$14m. Sox wanted $30...Union $14m..they agree with something in the middle and Hicks gets his $$$, maybe not $5m a year, but close enough or Sox make up the difference.

This looks like a case of Union obstruction of the free market.

The very thing the Union and the players have fought so hard to achieve.

Something is wrong with the Union's logic.

Looks like a good case for arbitration.

Henry's blunder was to air all these linens before making the trade.

Make the deal first, John. Then restructure when nobody's looking.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If ARod won't challenge the union and Boras says "it's in the hands of the owners" and Sox management has left NY, I'd say it looks pretty dead.

Only a "deus ex Selig" can resurrect this but if his legal guys say it's way too much time and trouble, then it won't happen either.

The only legal way around this I see is what DieHard said on the SOSH thread, that if you only interpret "value" in terms of money, you have a stalemate, but if "value" can also mean "happiness of the player and his family" then you might have a legal wedge there.

Whatever.

Tery Francona was the most envied man in baseball two days ago. Not anymore. Welcome to "Camp Conflict," Terry!

Terry Francona's "to do list."

1) Move Kevin Millar's locker as far away from Nomar's as possible.

What was turning out to be a dream team, appears to have been destroyed. I know statistically we are pretty much even with Nomar/Manny V.S. A-Rod/Mags. The difference isn't mind boggling. However, now we are going to (more than likely) lose Nomar after this season, along with some of our beloved players (Tek, Trot, Lowe, Mueller, Millar). I guess Carlos Guillen is on the market, but he is no Nomar. I just hope when the inevitable "loafing" by Manny occurrs, regarding chasing down fly balls, I hope to god that Schill isn't on the mound.

She is the woman who answered the phone when I called B)



Didn't ask that one, give it a try VA!



She was joking around, I called and she said "Players Association, Rebecca speaking" and so I said "Hi Rebecca, this is Mike ___ calling from NJ, I was wondering if you could fill me in on what is currently going on with the AROD negotiations" to which she replied "Haha, well there is no deal announced yet, but I feel it will get done today, haha." I told her "Thank you, and I hope you are right"

Excellent point. And it's not unreasonable to think that he could very well break Hank Aaron's or Bonds All-time HR record while in a Boston uniform and then most likely go into the HOF as a Red Sox.

When ARod retires it's possible he could be mentioned in the same breath as Ruth, Williams, etc.

So, it may be worth the trade in that respect also.

Makes no sense. it has been stated that the union had a counter proposal..meaning they are negotiating. It wouldn't be an all or nothing deal...Hicks backing off so no restructuring? The union has already supposedly negotiated money off arod's contract.

Folks its not dead yet! Just like everyone was saying before its not official until an official press conference is held....the same goes for this situation. Until JH, Theo, Lucchino says its over then we can says its dead. This deal is going to happen there is too much at stake!

The obvious answer here is the one you missed, when given the entire offseason to rest his wrist starts out much like it used to be. But due to the injury/surgery it simply isn't as strong and as such can't hold up over the full season anymore. Which puts us back where we started, he's not quite the same player. Still fabulous, just not quite so much as before.

I don't see a problem with just walking away from this right now. Let Tom Hicks stew in his self-made problems. He'll have more to worry about financially as it becomes closer to the time that his hockey team shuts down next season (and hopefully much longer).

There are very few teams able to even consider a trade for A-Rod, so he's not going anywhere. Who's to say that as the season goes on (up until the trading deadline) that this can't be resurrected.

As constituted right now, the Sox are in championship contending state. If Nomar leaves next year, so what. There's no way IMO that all of the big 4 FA's were coming back for 2005, it leaves more for Pedro, Lowe and Tek.

I don't want Selig involved in this in any way. Just bad news.

If Nomar and Manny are still in Boston this season, it isn't the worst case scenario. By a long shot. True, fences will have to be mended, but I'm positive that come opening day, Nomar will play the way he always has: As hard as he can to help his team win on every single night. If it ends up being his last season in Boston, management can use the money saved to resign other guys, like Trot, Tek, Lowe. As for Manny, I'm fairly confident he'll play the same way as well...he'll walk up to the plate with that grin on his face, with no idea who is pitching, and continue to drill pitches off the Monster left and right. I don't think this will effect him as some have thought.

I can honestly say at this point if this trade does NOT go down, I will be VERY dissapointed. Even with the acquisitions of Schilling and Foulke - the prospect of having AROD and Maggs was so exciting, that anything less is now going to be a dissapointment.

What a bummer this has turned out to be - one hell of a roller coaster ride.

Based on what everyone has been saying [AROD, Boras, Henry etc] this deal is dead - dead as can be

Ok-let's say this deal happens: Arod/Maggs for Manny/Nomar, et all. How are the ecomics going to work Next season with a ton of FAs hanging over our heads-Lowe, Varitek, Nixon, Pedro... Is there any way any of you could cenceive that JWH&Co would work all the numbers with maggs (assuming he would want to resign him at the end of the year) and still be able to sign a combo of those FAs (you can all argue which ones you'd be willin to part with). Is there any way that we could have all those guys (or a combination of most of them) without perpetually having to deal with the luxury tax consideration? I posted earlier that I didn't see how JWH&CO could possibly dump a bunch of players since this is Boston and he would never be able to escape RSN's wrath, but I just can't see how all this could possibly work out. I will display my ignorance, as many of you know the numbers better than I which is why I am throwing it out there to hear your educated thoughts on it..

My feeling is that Maggs could be a one year type guy. If we're looking at potentially resigning him for what-12M or so, and assuming we want to keep Pedro -which JWH&Co supposedly loosly indicated to Schills-at what-$17+/per-how could we possibly re sign any of those guys?

C Otto -

I understand what your saying, and I agree that Nomar will probably put up some better numbers than year end of 2003. He will probably be good for somewhere around a .900 OPS, I just think the days of him hitting .350-.370 are over. I guess the point of my original post, is that the future Nomar will probably be something closer to the 2002-2003 Nomar, not the 1998-2000 Nomar, and that ARod/Magglio could be expected to improve over their 2003 production, meaning that the overall offense of the Red Sox will not suffer if this trade is made.

I agree with Trojanrabbitt. Just walk away. Nomar will have to put in a good year if he wants to make the dough. And they can always trade Manny for Arod next year. We have a good team as it is.

It seems like everything is in Hicks' hands now. There is no way Henry pays upto 5 mil a year without restructuring. AROD basically said that he won't accept something union does not approve. So, the only option is for Hicks' to stop demanding upto 5 mil a year in addition to Manny and Lester.
Just does not seem like the trade is going to happen ... Too bad.

On the other hand .. I would still trade Nomar for Ordonez ... and then figure out how the rest of the lineup plays out.

"I just hope when the inevitable "loafing" by Manny occurrs, regarding chasing down fly balls, I hope to god that Schill isn't on the mound."

I hope Schill IS on the mound...confront bad habits!

When did this become a "Nomar Garciaparra 2004 Projection" thread? This is for keeping track of the ARod/Manny trade rumors, and 12 pages of OPS stats on Nomar (although very interesting) kind of takes away from the real point of this thread. . .IMHO.

I would agree w/ you that Maggs is probably a one year rental, assuming he would not want to resign for a 2 or 3MM a year paycut. But i dont think that is necessarily the worst thing that could happen.

Look at it this way, trade falls apart, Nomar walks, the Sox have to replace an all star SS, with 11.5MM

Trade goes through, Maggs walks, Sox have to replace an all star OF with 10-12MM.

I think its much easier to sign a comparable OFer for that kind of $$ than finding a comparable SS. Carlos Beltran perhaps?

I agree - The sky isn't falling - Like JWH says - All is not lost - relax and enjoy the holidays - Or something like that -

This deal looks doable if the owners would come together
and meet halfway.
The money involved is small compared to the total package.

Hicks doesn't seem to understand that both sides must save money.
Either that, or he's just stonewalling for the last buck.

Three scenarios are possible:

1) they do the deal with Union approval--with Selig giving another 24 hr extension
(why constrain yourself with deadlines?),

2) they do the deal without Union approval--Selig approves and goes to arbitration-
ARod has to sign off on this--his statement was a mistake. Players should abide by arbitration rulings. Not all players are with the Union on this one--as we all know.

3) the deal dies, and a week from now Steinbrenner swoops in and trades
Jeter for ARod--much to the glee of the Players Union--one of his allies.
And satisfying all those big market media types who favor NY anyways.

Me thinks that Mr. Henry is very careful what he releases to the press and how he conducts business, and everyting was done for a reason. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but it would not surprise me if this was an intentional ploy to make the Union look bad publicly. In a time where wage cut backs are commom place in the real world, this may be the owners opportunity to stick it to the Union. As mentioned in an earlier post, Henry would not be the owner if not for Bud. Bud would love to control the Union and gain the upper hand. Are the two connected?

I couldn't agree more that it would be easier to find a comparable OF than all star SS.... IMHO Beltran wouldn't be a comparable replacement for Maggs/Manny...but then again, having a little more speed wouldn't hurt either. I mean, with Grady gone, could it be that the Sox actually entertain the notion of playing small ball once in a while instead of free swinging and/or getting sending someone with a man on and one out, only to have a strike em out/throw em out just about every important inning in the playoffs? (i know I am exaggerating a bit here)

They could sign an extension with Ordonez, lowering his average salary for next year--for luxury tax purposes. That they certainly can do without the Union.
In fact, it's what makes Ordonez attractive.

But, for heaven sakes, Henry, do this after the trade!
And do it in private--not llike the ARod circus act.

The other thing they can do is trade Nomar to the Dodgers for farm talent,
and sign a cheaper left fielder.

That will make up for Hicks' silly $5 mil demand--which is not making him
any friends --except maybe in NY.

I think people worry too much these days about whether or not you can resign players or not - If you focus too much on that you will inevitably overpay your players when resigning them just so you don't lose them -

Things have changed in baseball - It's amazing how many free agents there are and how many deals can be made - As long as you have big market dollars to spend and you don't overpay people, you should always be able to field a great club - No need to be fearful anymore of players in the final year of their contracts -

Add to that the sox commitment to signing players with good attitudes (George could use some advice here) and we should be in good shape for years to come

Don't you have any concerns about Manny and a guy like Schill being on the same team? I don't think it's a huge issue, but aren't you concerned that if Manny loafs in the field while Schill is pitching it could develop into a big time thing? I'm not sure resigning Nixon is a great idea based on the amount of money he will get. You can't pay a guy 6-8 mill who is that porous against lhp, don't you think? I also have a strong inkling that Tek will only be around 1-2 years, counting this year, based on his age/future salary and Mr. Shopeck down on the farm. I think we are going to have one more year to do it with this lineup, the staff will be more or less the same, but I think our lineup will and has to change somewhat drastically over the next two years. Espeically if these guys produce the way they did last year, during contract years.

"In the spirit of cooperation, I advised the Red Sox I am willing to restructure my contract, but only within the guidelines prescribed by union officials," Rodriguez said Thursday in a statement he read to The Associated Press. "I recognize the principle involved, and fully support the need to protect the interests of my fellow players.

"If my transfer to the Red Sox is to occur, it must be done with consideration of the interests of all major league players, not just one. Any statements by club officials suggesting my position is different than stated is inaccurate and unfortunate."

If this were a wrestling "event", A-Rod would have just ripped off his Red Sox jersey to show his I Love Gene Orza t-shirt, grabbed a chair and slammed it over Lucchino's head.

Let's go Nomah!

This is my first post, so I am going to just touch on things.

I understand that Mr. Henry does not want to give in to Hicks, I wouldn't either. I do believe though that he is in a zone where you do not come back from without the deal completed. The clubhouse, even with kissy kissy and playing make up with nomar and manny will be a disaster. There is no way Nomar and Millar are going to patch things up and Manny is still going to play the way Manny wants. As for Hicks, the clubhouse there is going to be just as bad, basically A-Rod expressed the desire to be on a winning team....What do you think that says to his fellow Rangers.

Gene Orza is a whole other issue....I sent him an email last night and would like to share it with you all....I applaud your stance as a union man, I can see your point. I do not however agree with they way you have handled the A-Rod to Boston situation. I used to be part of a union and I know how the lives of the workers (players) are most important, however you are in a different type of world. You have a worker who has enough money to take care of many generations of his family and you are denying him a choice. A choice to take a cut on his contract so that he may help an organization achieve a goal. A goal in which he is highly interested in obtaining too. I can go on for many hours and bore you with how this off season has renewed my hope as a red sox fan, but I won't. I will ask you to change your mind and allow the deal to go through. I don't think it is gonna make sense putting A-Rod, Nomar, Manny and (Millar for his comments) back in their clubhouses for a season. I have watched my grandmother follow the red sox her whole life and never had a chance to see them bring the championship home, so please don't punish us fans because of union pride.

Now back to Mr. Henry.....Get A-Rod.....We have watched the generations of our families who are diehard fans go through their one life without watching there team bring home the championship. They have however, just like us, witnessed the yankees bring home many. When push came to shove, the Yankees dropped the cash and brought home the title. You have the resources, you've made the steps, now take the final step and go full steam ahead for not only us fans, but the generations who have led us here.

God Bless America and God Bless our Boston Red Sox !

That's what I don't agree with - he doesn't rank with "anyone." He's not even close to Tris Speaker offensively. If you're trying to position Jim Rice as an all-time great who just declined early, I'm not buying it.


Nomar was more productive than Rice in 4 of their first 7 seasons, they tied once, and was less productive twice, one of them being Nomar's injury year. Even in "decline" phase, when we're trying to trade him away for fifty cents on the dollar, Nomar is more productive than Rice was. And he plays shortstop.

Rice was a good player, but I don't understand how you think he compares to players who were offensively superior, and played more valuable defensive positions.

I'm not that concerned about the interaction between Manny and Schilling. I guess what you're wondering is if Manny loafs on a slow liner to left and it falls in for a hit, will it drive Schilling nuts? Probably, but not only is Schilling a competitor, so are Pedro, Lowe, Wakes, and other guys that have played with Manny and suffered the same thing before. They've co-existed. I'm sure that if it happens, Manny will do what he always does, turn on the next inside heater he sees and drive it. If Manny's putting up "Manny numbers" each time Schilling is on the hill, I'm sure Curt can make do.

We'll have to see how things play out regarding guys like Nixon and Tek. I think Shoppach is a season or two away, so I'm guessing Tek will be there for Shoppach's first season in the bigs, to help the new catcher adjust. As for Nixon, you're probably right, $6-8 mill per is probably too much for what amounts to a platoon player, given Trot's difficulty in handling LHPs. But again, that assumes Nomar is back for 2004 only, something we just don't know right now.

I can't believe they'll kill this deal with just $3 mil per year separating the two teams right now --with Union approval.

That's just plain silly.

Hicks and Henry--fork up $1.5 mil apiece, or I will tell Santa not to come
down your chimneys.

>>>I applaud your stance as a union man, I can see your point. I do not however agree with they way you have handled the A-Rod to Boston situation. I used to be part of a union and I know how the lives of the workers (players) are most important, however you are in a different type of world.

Apparently these guys get really upset when the word union is used. They prefer "Players Association". I don't see the difference.

The idea Selig will try to force it through really took a hit with A-Rod's statement basically saying he wouldn't support that. I think Boras got to him.

Any rich Red Sox fans willing to fork over 3 million a year to make this deal happen?

I don't think it's Nomar's wrist.

I think his patience at the plate has deteriorated.


He was a .330 hitter last year until he hit a wall in September.
Maybe from overuse by that dumb manager.

Nothing wrong with Nomar that taking more walks wouldn't cure.
His walks are down.

Tim Kurkjian on ESPN radio [Tony Kornheiser show]

Says contract needs to get renegotiated, and that is a big issue.
ALSO owners need to agree on amount of $$$ going to TEX w/ Manny.

Tim K and Tony K agreeing that BOS should not have to give any $$$, but they will have to basically.

Tim K says his prediction is that the deal will get done - so much has been invested into it - Rangers really need to move AROD to rebuild - RS would get 2 great players [Maggs] - mentioned deadline is 6pm EST?? - Everyone wins with this trade in his opinion - biggest winner would be MLB - says Gene Orza wants the deal to go down, but union will play by rules - RS tried to cut 30M off of the deal - way too much - Orza cares most about Union and rules -

Sorry for the mess, but typing as fast as possible.

I am beginning to sour on Alex's 'desire' to play here. I think everyone involved thinks they have JH over the barrel. It may be time to walk away. He really is the consumate PR mouthpiece. He said all the right things about coming to Boston early, and now he's trying to say all the right things to the union. I am really starting to think he is a whining selfish ass out to promote himself more than anything. It was exciting to think if him here, but to play the role of 'uninterested' neutral third party while at the same time screwing your current employer ( by whining about the losing team, and demanding a trade to here or here) and throwing your potential new employer under the bus (latest AP statement) is to pretend he has no opinion and say in any of it while trying all the while to manipulate it yourself.

I hope Alex enjoys last place for the next 7 years in Tex. Screw 'em I think I am officially off the Alex bandwagon with his two statements this am.

Thanks for the info NJSF....don't worry how you type...these are all crazy times.... so no worries on how you type.

This is going to be a very long day isn't it?

Talking about Nomar and that CWS may not trade him to LA or wherever ... Nomar would be most unhappy in this situation [duh] but Tim K thinks they will move him ... to LA for young pitchers

TonyK: Did Nomar do this to himself ...
TimK: Heart was not 100% on staying in Bos, should have taken 15M deal, if he thought he was gonna get 20M he was very mistaken

Talking about Theo now, Tim K says he is really good and has done really well in the whole AROD mess ... "that kid has done a great job w/ the RS"

How far away are the Yankees? If the AROD deal goes down - very far, considerably far - a manager said if the Sox got AROD they would win the WS, and that was before the Magglio deal was known about.

Says SiaS is reason Yanks did not pursue Vlad, b/c he is a moron basically and had his sights set on Sheff

Whether this deal happens or not (and I hope it does), let's give it to our brass, especially Theo. Has anything come easy for this guy? Millar was a headache, Schilling was a battle, Foulke dragged out, he's got Pedro and an extension on the mind and now comes the epic battle for A-Rod. I'm hoping he's directly in the mix and right in Hicks' grill. Hicks might give in just to get Theo the hell away from him and out of his ear. The kid is a pitt-bull. Once he gets ahold of something he doesn't let it go. Maybe we should call him Jan Schlictmann........of course Jan lose in the end, so maybe that's not quite right.

There is no F'n way we should pay one penny to that dumb ass Hicks. He bid against himself and made the stupid mistake to sign him to that contract on a team with no arms. Screw him. Let his team stay in the cellar!!! I would love Alex, but not at the expense of paying any of Mannys contract!!!

I would guess "union" sounds too pedestrian and "democratic" , since we're talking about big money, big business types here.

But I'll agree, Players A$$ociation looks a lot better. <_<

arguing over Gene Orza, Tim K says he wont care that he will be the villian in this - Tony K says he will ...

again touching on the fact that Boston should just eat all of ARODs contract and tell TEX they have to eat all of Mannys - and TEX would still save almost 100M ...

If it looks like a union, sounds like a union, has representation like a union, acts like a union and is corrupt like a union. I think it is probably is a union. They can euphemize all the want.

I think there are a lot of us who will be sleeping very soundly tonight. I know that I won't make it up much past 6:00pm, except if the trade goes through, then all bets are off.

> =

Well that was mildly encouraging I guess. My favorite part was this :



Like the sounds of that!

I can not wait until 5 or 6 or whenever this deadline is.