Chicago papers have Nomar going to the White Sox for Maggs and Danny Wright. Other sources have Nomar and Williamson for Maggs. I'm not entirely clear what all that deal entails. From what I get from Chicago radio, the Nomar-Maggs deal is still in place, for the time being. I am not sure how long these other clubs (White Sox and Dodgers) will wait around for the A-Rod/Manny deal to go through.

Whether or not the deal is officially dead, the Sox have done the right thing. The deal was not a good fit as it stood and they walked away from the table. Want Nomar / Want A-Rod is a moot point. Could anyone imagine what would have happened in the Duquette era? We probably would have been paying Texas $10 million a year to cover Manny's contract and sent the two best prospects over with Manny.

No doubt about it, I would love to see the deal done, but irresponsibility by ownership got us into this mess in the first place ie: Manny's contract. I applaud the Sox negotiating team for putting in their best efforts and walking away when the the right deal could not be made.

Better days lie ahead. A-Rod may end up with the "B" on his cap eventually, but it will not happen tonight. 2004 is going to be fun to watch no matter which all-star is manning the red dirt.

Raise a glass to Red Sox brass for keeping their heads about them today

I was thinking has this ownership had to go through any real hard negotiaons? if they dont hold ground on this one, there first BIG deal then when they try negotiations in the future people would know, if you hold out long enugh they will break down. So if this deal goes down or not they are atleast showing they have a backbone.

Anyway, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Here's what I would do to make the Boston Red Sox unquestionably the best team in baseball in 2004.

Trade Kim to Texas for ARod and $7 million per season. This shaves $49 million off of the remaining 7 years of Alex's contract, making it $130 million owed by the Sox. Hicks gets a starting pitcher and saves a desperately needed $130 million, or more than half his mistake. I think Hicks could care less about getting Manny at all, he just wants to shed payroll, and this seems his only way to do it. If he put ARod on irrevocable waivers, he wouldn't get claimed either if the team who took him had to pay out the entire contract.

We trade Nomar and Williamson to the ChiSox for Magglio. This is a financial wash.

As much as I hate to do it, we trade Trot to the Dodgers for prospects.

We now have our current payroll, minus $6 million for Trot, $5 million for Kim, $3 million for Williamson, and $11.5 million for Nomar. For next season, we add a net of $14 million for ARod, and $14 million for Magglio. That's a net addition of only $2.5 million, and I'm ready to go to war with a lineup of Damon CF, Mueller 3B, ARod SS, Manny LF, Maggs RF, Ortiz DH, Millar 1B, Varitek C, Bellhorn 2B. Starting pitchers are Pedro, Curt, Lowe, Wake, and Arroyo. Timlin, Embree in the middle and Foulke closes. That's a starting lineup of 2 lefties, 4 righties, and 3 switch-hitters. You can't pitch around anyone except possibly Varitek.

curt schilling slept with my mother.

DD says his next update is Midnight. Its in Caps. I hope he has some inside information to share with us.

I prepared for the worst but I still can't let go.

The clubhouse was a great strength from last year, in spite of Manny and Nomar. I really can't see Manny and Nomar returning after all that has transpired over the past couple of weeks. But if for some reason, the Sox get stuck with those two returning, I think the pressure from the real Sox leaders (Pedro, Ortiz, Millar, Nixon, Varitek, and Schilling) as well as the fans to conform and perform will be overwhelming. I also think that it might have a positive effect on the level of play for Nomar who I'm sure will be striving to show all of us ARod supporters how great he really is...but then again Manny is Manny and he'll probably try to miss 90 games out of spite.

I really loved this deal. If it does not go through, I'll be pretty down. I don't know about you, but this deal not going through would rank right up there with losing Gm 7 of '03, Gm 6 of '86, Gm 7 of '75 and the '76 playoff game against Oakland (Pats). Seems like everytime I get my hopes up something happens to kick us in the teeth. Let's hope we don't get kicked this time! I have faith in Theo & Co. that it won't happen this time!!!

where do you see that?

So let's say the deal isn't merely dead, it's really most sincerely dead. That leaves us with:

8/9ths of last year's record-breaking lineup, and a pitching staff where the bright spots stayed on and were joined by Schilling, Foulke, and a full year of Williamson. I like our chances, no matter who ends up at second base.

Clubhouse problems? Not likely. Everyone agrees that Manny is probably the most aloof player in baseball. He'll just do his thing. Nomar only knows how to play one way, and that's all-out every day. He'll do that, too, and we'll find out if the last two months of 2003 were an anamoly or the future. As far as Millar and all that, these guys live in real close quarters more than half the year...I'm sure they piss each other off regularly, and deal with it like men. Now the Yank-me's adding Brown and Sheffield...that could be a fun clubhouse to watch...

A year from now, WS under our belt, Manny's contract past its peak financially and the Rangers a year further in the hole, do the trade then and use the money saved when Nomar walks to sign a FA outfielder.

While I like the way you are thinking. I wouldn't want to see Trot go. I mean he has been a true leader year in and year out and in the end we would still be stuck with Manny and that really who the owners want to get rid of.

Count me out for waiting up until midnight to see if bostradamus aka DD has earth shattering news regarding the trade. This foolishnes has occupied my time long enough. I don't care anymore. Short of sending Manny, Kim, Williamson, Nomar and the soon to be sharing a cell with Nelson and Garcia groundskeeper to Texas for Arod's used jock they can do whatever they feel they need to do to improve the team. I just won't be sitting here like a degenerate reading 51 websites to get the same report - Nobody knows nuttin'. I've enjoyed my few posts on RR and look forward to returning after the madness to talk about something besides this deal - until then I bid you all farewell.

First off, hi all, and thanks for letting a lonely CT sox fan put a post up. It seems there's very few places lately for Sox fans outside of certain exclusive fraternities to get some insider info.

Second - does anyone have a link, or information, or first-hand accounts of the Shilling WEEI appearance BsDD references? I couldn't find anything in the recent posts here at the Rooters.

Third - Supposing the A-Rod deal really is finished, at least as-is without restructuring of any contracts, isn't this the perfect time for Nomar to put his money (and contract) where his mouth was only a week before? It seems to me that the best way for the Sox to move on from here, and for Nomar to assert his desire to stay in Boston, is for him to sit down at the table and take some version of the contract Theo offered him previously.

Wasn't the whole reason why we got into this A-Rod mess the fact that we'd be *short* a shortstop at the end of next year?

Step up to the plate, Nomar.

Whats this about a DirtDogs update at midnight? Its not on the website

Its above the "Deadline passed" title.

Rodriguez offered to reduce salaries in his contract by $12 million in exchange for increased marketing and logo use rights, agent Scott Boras said.

The proposal from the Red Sox that the players' association rejected a day earlier would have cost Rodriguez $28 million, according to the team's evaluation, and $30 million, according to the union's analysis, Boras said


How could the Sox try and shave $30 with their proposal to the union while ARod only offered to shave $12m?

Am I reading this wrong?

yes I agree, I waisted a sunny day in front of the computer. I have a family to tend to. Have a great night everyone. It's time to take a break.

I just remembered something...does anyone remember back to the departure of Mo Vaughn...people were wondering the impact it could have on Nomar and media relations, since Mo did such a good job keeping the writers entertained, allowing Nomar to do what he was most comfortable doing: staying in the background and playing tremendous baseball. Maybe what we need more than ARod is a quote machine...

Schilling is a quote machine.

No way would I trade Trot Nixon. He's a clutch hitter. If we're going to win it all we need that worse than we may realize in the abstract haze of December. He's a uniting force. If you're headed for some rocky days in the clubhouse in early 2004 you're going to need all the calming forces you can get. And he'd a solid, inexpensive every day player. But most importantly there's just no pressing need. Nixon's sallary is small potatoes on the level we're talking about right now. Sure you want to cut a little money someplace. But that's not a good place to cut.

he's trot nixon, not jesus christ

There is alot of talk in this forum about this ownership being a joke because this deal may not get done. how can anyone say such nonsense? I am worried about the fall-out of this deal being dumped on the clubhouse atmosphere and what could turn out to be a season in jeopardy ( if only from the possibility of the players not getting along and having unhappy players feeling that the team has been disloyal to them )( which is total b.s. by the way but still a very powerful emotion ) however this being said, there is no way that I will blame the braintrust for trying to pull off the biggest trade in history and then sticking it to the MFY'S in the process. NO WAY!! The track record speaks for itself and if I am told that the reason for the trade being tried in the first place is because one superstar doesn't want to hustle and play hard and wants to be somewhere else and then is given his outright opportunity to do so ( with no takers ). Then I am going to have to believe in the current ownership. and if I am told that another superstar through his agent or not doesn't want to sign for a reported 15,000,000 for four years and by all accounts doesn't want to be here ( which has been reported for a couple of years now )but says he does but offers no insight into why he turned down the 15 million dollar offer, then I also choose to go with the good guys on this one too.
Bottom line is this group is comitted to win it all!!! They do not care about the media or what the mainstream thoughts are, they are here to build a winner! A WINNER. now if this means that a mistake is made or something just doesn't happen then so be it. I will still not crucify this ownership, they have proven that they are here to win! and will go get the pieces needed if it is feasable to do so and not a make a stupid move to stroke an ego.

This whole situation is so Red Sox.

Whatever, this team looks f'n awesome, I wish the season starts tomorrow.

Im a new member of this site but a die hard sox fan. I think this deadline passing only benefits the sox. Texas has no choice but to make the deal, they have to. Now that the sox can't restruture arod's contract, hicks has to make the trade straight up. in theo we trust.

While I certainly have no inside information, count me among those who think there will still be meetings between the Rangers and the Sox over the next few days. However, if this deal is, indeed dead, at least we still have Manny and Nomar in the heart of our lineup.

Let's not place too much stock in clubhouse chemistry. Manny and Nomar seemed to be aloof from the team last year, and I would not be surprised if they continued their aloof attitude this season as well. I think both of them care little about what happens within the clubhouse.

Relax, folks. The trade will still happen. Everyone take a drink and go kiss their wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, dogs or Wally The Green Monster plush dolls.

Anybody else think that this press release by JLH is just a bargaining tool?

Showing he can walk away from the deal... Hart has to get rid of ARod. They want him there less than we want Manny here.

I wouldn't be suprised if Hart came back and just offered a straight-up trade, without cash considerations.

But that's just me...

With all due respect, what a bunch of hogwash! So you don't like "players paying players", eh? What do you think every player on the Rangers has experienced when they've wanted to stay in Texas and had to take less to do so...they were paying part of A-Rod salary! Or the free agent that was hoping to get a good offer from Texas, but it never came so they settled for less elsewhere...they were paying part of A-Rod's salary too.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for an abortion of a contract like A-Rod's not exact vengence upon EVERYONE that comes in contact with it...the owner..the players on the team...or free agents hoping to get an offer from the Rangers...they are all paying part of A-Rod's salary as an opportunity cost.

What the Red Sox would have done was to quantify the defect in the salary, correct it, and have market correct in an efficient manner rather than the current manner.

You, my friend, are kidding yourself if you think that other players aren't already paying for another player's salary.

i must agree with mr. oilcan. its only the gap that needs to be bridged between the MLBPA, the sox and the rangers. if texas gives into the sox demands, then further negotiations with arod arent necessary. if they can figure out away, you have to think that arod will accept no matter what. i mean he was going to give up $30mil

Lucchino is definitely posturing. I've heard reports he blew up at Hicks and JWH cut him out of the negotiations to cool off.

The Sox are gonna pursue two things at once again the next couple days in all likelyhood. Call up Tellum, talk to him at the same time about Nomar, and see what develops. If Hicks comes crawling back, of course you listen. But I do think the Sox have moved on unless Hicks blinks and picks up the phone.

Further proof that various people have been jumping to conclusions about things

Angels agreed to terms with second baseman Adam Kennedy on a three-year, $8.85 million contract.
The Angels seem to have decided that if they do go out and get a big-name shortstop at some point, it's Kennedy, not David Eckstein, who will be their second baseman. He receives annual salaries of $2.5 million, $3 million and $3.35 million, and he can earn an additional $150,000 in performance bonuses over the term of the contract

Yeah, we were going to trade Nomar for a guy making less in three years than Nomar makes in one. Good call guys, we need to have more faith in Theo.

In Theo, John, and Larry we Trust

Buried back around page 123 or so of this "War and Peace" thread is a "round by round" description of what Curt was saying.

ARod should have advised the union that he WILL benefit from re-structuring his deal, just from the standpoint that he will be in a much stronger endorsement mark

1941.406
That's the first time I've seen anybody bring this up. I've been thinking the same thing for weeks. If you look at the fact that at his peak Michael Jordan had $50M in endorsements per year, A-Rod must know that not getting any national attention by playing in a championship game is killing his marketability. Now I know that Jordan is one of the most charismatic pesonalities we will ever see come out of sports and it hard for a baseball player to get the same market exposure, but he still is the best at the game and has a chance here to play on a team that will compete during the playoffs in front of a national audience every year for the remainder of this decade.(praying)
The Union really needs to look at this and maybe classify players on their commercialization and whether or not they are holding the players that they represent back from promoting themselves and the sport or are they just doing damage.

as a new member, i would like to thank all the natives on this board for all the info they have given me for this past season since I discovered it.

i have no new info but i would only like to say that i agree with others in that texas is in a worst posistion then the sox. the rangers have proven that they cant win with a-rod. the only way they are going to get it done is to unload his salary and get some pitching. because of jeter, the sox are the only match.

the sox on the other hand were successful last year. if this trade were to not happen we would still be in the playoffs. i know nomar would be pissed but imo he will still have a great year reguardless where he plays because of the type of player he is and given the fact that he is in the last year of his contract.

I think this trade will happen. when it is all said and done i think hicks has to give in more then the sox. imo, he has the most to gain because there team is further in the cellar to begin with.

This is what I've been saying all along - That's what the trio has been doing the last two days - If you want to get the best deal you truly have to be ready to leave it on the table and walk away - Our guys aren't blinking - Now we find out how bad Texas needs this deal - All the talkings done - We know we can afford to move on - Can Hicks?

This is my first post so bear with me - a few things to say here :

a) It seems to me that the Commissioner's office is as peeved as Larry Luccino at the Union. Did anyone read the last sentence of Selig's statement : "It's unfortunate that the Players Association felt it necessary to take a legal position which prevented the player and at least two teams from effectuating an agreement that they felt was beneficial." Also, I'm getting quite a vocabulary lesson reading about this A-Rod trade (transcendent, effectuating, intransigence).

B) At least the decision by the Union screws the MFY's as much as it does the Red Sox (probably even moreso). The Yanks will not be able to renegotiate any salary dumps they take, and they end up taking more than the Sox do.

c) I think the trade still happens. I disagree that the blustering by Luccino is to put the screws to Hicks though - I think it is to vent at the Player's Association. I'm not sure why they are doing this - whether it's to try to loosen the Union's stance, player support of Orza, or to cast Hicks and the Rangers in a positive light, but I'm sure there's an ulterior motive here to the fact that Luccino has broken "radio silence" to bash the union.

d) I wouldn't worry about the clubhouse morale. Either way I think Nomar will be gone, and Manny'll produce whether or not he's grumpy or not.

e) Pokey Reese signing : what is up with that? I thought Bellhorn was a good move, but I hope Reese is nothing more than a defensive sub.

Thanks for having me on your board.

I tend to agree with those who believe that Lucchino is posturing, especially given his hotly worded press release. With his seemingly lifelong animosity towards the Players Assocation, I'm sure this entire experience has raised his anger to new heights. Right on the cusp of obtaining baseball's greatest player, it's taken away by a bunch of labor lawyers, led by Gene Orza.

Don't discount Lucchino's legal background, particularly his experience as a management attorney at Williams & Connolly in DC, right before joining the Orioles in the 80s. In stark contrast, Gene Orza has been a lifelong labor attorney. These two guys were simply not destined to get along, and that became painfully clear this week.

In any event, based on John Hart's most recent comments -- their desperation for making this deal is finally becoming publicly evident -- I still see this deal happening, and I wonder if this stalemate ends up helping the Sox, particularly if Texas makes additional concessions to help assuage the Union?

Outstanding post. You should send this note to Gene Orza and everyone else who still thinks ARods contract is something that was good for him or 'the players'

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A standing ovation for how the Red Sox management dealt with today.

Have fun in Arlington, A-Rod. Meanwhile, let's get ready to win the pennant and the World Series with the best offensive team in MLB and a kick ass pitching staff. The additions of Schilling and Foulke are incredible. Bring on anybody. Red Sox will rock and roll in 2004.

I'm hearing that our buddy Dirt Dog may have it right . . . !

Just a random thought, but I've been on this site hour-after-hour for days. Funny thing how after the trade is announced "dead" there is more optimism on the message boards than when the trade looked almost certain.

Another thought... if Lucchino's strategy is so transparent to us, don't the Rangers know what he's doing as well? I would love to believe that this is all part of the ivy leaguers' plans...but if we see it, I'm sure Hicks does too. Not saying he's the brightest star in the sky, but I'm sure he knows what we're up to. Nonetheless, he needs to make the trade anyway. He has to. He knows that he will live to regret it if he doesn't. Hopefully Hicks brings down the offer, or A Rod says F*** the Union, and lets Selig challenge it. I'm hanging on to the fact that Dirt Dog thinks it will happen. Official site or not, they have not been wrong too often!

How so, Art?

Don't know yet. But the rumblings back up what he's got on his main page.

Don't tease us Art - What have you got?

Bill Mueller will have an interview on Sporting News Radio at 10:20 eastern time

Can you be more specific?

I'm so confused, new from Rotoworld

C'mon Art...you're killing me here! He's got alot on that page. Tell me you mean the fat lady hasn't sung!!

Geez Art, are you trying to replace JHenry in the cryptic message
department? Spill it man! What part of the various and sundry
Dirt Dog stuff might he have right??

art... there is nothing new on DD main page!?... are you referring to what he has been saying all along!!??? that this deal will happen!!!???

Just when I had my sights on getting some sleep.

DD if you are out there...any information??