Interesting...no longer working with Arod and the Union...but he didn't say they were no longer working with Texas.

Just finished reading hours worth of posts and I have a few quick thoughts.

- Mr. Henry, et al, please ignore the fans who are saying "just make it happen". What we want is a good and fair deal. Do not panic and do not overpay simply because that is "what the fans want". Most fans believe that Manny straight up for A-rod is a great deal but most fans also believe that Manny plus $25 million for A-Rod is a terrible deal. Boston fans are sophisticated and we know that overpaying for A-Rod means hurting the team elsewhere. We want a trade that is good for the team in both the short-term and medium-term.

- As for local sportswriters and their hissy fit about the internet (btw, how can someone like McAdam, about as smart a fellow as there is out there, be so stupid sometimes i.e. Grady and the internet), this simply confirms my theory that we live in a post- post modern world of sportswriters. Modern sportswriters in the early 1900's were "homers". They routed for the teams they covered. Post-modern writers took on a new mantel and brought a critical eye toward the teams they covered. The new post-post-modern writer is a cynical wretch who makes a living telling the fans how stupid, emotional, and illinformed they are. Didn't we ALL know that some of the sportswriters would say that there was nothing wrong with what Grady did in the 7th game? Didn't we know that there would be sportswriters that would say that firing Grady was unfair?

Or how about this for another example: It is early spring and the Red Sox have just one six straight games and everyone is excited. Some jerk sportswriter will ALWAYS write a column about how it is only April and Boston fans are fools to think that six games in April mean anything....But wait, suppose the Sox win six straight, but the fans are nervous and restless and unhappy that the 2nd base situation is still in flux, that VERY SAME sportswriter will write an article about how awful Boston fans are because they can never be "happy" and they never can "enjoy" a winning streak without complaining. In this post-post-modern world, not only is there no truth, there is no INSIGHT. Sportswriters invariably spout off with simple, mindless, anti-fan, cynical shtick and their editors let them get away with it (sorry Art).

Why then do these sportswriters not like the internet? Because you can, if you are careful and smart, find TRUTH and INSIGHT, two things lacking on the sportspages of the major dailies.

(I do like McAdam, though, very much. I wish HE would come on this board and take his medicine like a man before we "lose him" and he becomes the next Michael Gee or, perish the thought, Dan Shaughnessy).

Rant over,

rrsafety

Gerry Callahan just told Lucchino that he thought the deal wasn't dead, and LL responded with the following:

"You might be right, but I can only speak for the Red Sox from our point of view."

In other words, Silverman is right on target... it's not dead, but they want the Rangers to revive it so they'll have more leverage.

the article I read did say that they would platoon

There have also been reports (by Gammons, I believe) that the Rangers had cut their demands for the Sox from 25 mil to 15mil, over 5 years. If that is true, and the union was willing to sign off a a 12 mil reduction in ARod's contract, we are looking at 3 million dollars seperating the two sides (650,000 or so per year). That makes no sense; somebody's numbers must be wrong...

This deal is most likely to happen.

Sounds like Pokey Reese is exactly what they are looking for, provided he takes a substantial pay cut from the $2.5 million he made last year. He's a great fielder and should keep the pitching staff happy.

I think there's something to being on The Big Show that rots your mind.

As for jerk sportswriters (and radio hosts), nothing proves your point as much as what's going on with the Patriots and Richard Seymour. It looks like they're scrambling over each other to try to drive a wedge because the Pats are doing just about everything right and are doing it as a team. Smoothly running teams don't sell ads (until Feb 1, maybe).

A word from the Barstaff:

Please discuss Pokey Reese here. This thread is complex enough as it is!

Thanks.

Anni

I caught that. They know Texas is desperate to get this done. My feeling is that the Sox are just waiting for a call from Arlington. Quite brilliant actually.

Does anyone know where to find the transcript of Schilling's interview on WEEI where he ripped a sportswriter apart? I know this is the wrong thread to discuss non manny issues and I dont want anni getting on my case.

I think the Sox are playing this the right way now. They should hold out for their terms (or as close as they can get). In no way should they feel desperate to make the deal happen, or they will get stuck with bad terms. It's all about leverage. As an aside, is Lucky really needed in this organization? He seems to have too much "lawyer" in him, maybe he is the stumbling block to this deal. Gammens on ESPN this morning alluded that the Sox might be better off with him taking a back seat in this.

regarding the Schilling interview

Go to

http://bostondirtdogs.com/

and go to the Schill Spanks Mazz link.

Right click your mouse and "save target as" to your desktop.

I'm listening to it right now.

IMHO, if this deal is going to happen, it will have to be done today or tomorrow. Think of the sheer number of players that we know are involved and then think of how many more may be involved. Last count, up to 10 players were associated with this deal and who knows, it could be north of that. The 3-4 teams can't stay in a holding pattern much longer and putting Pinochio back together X-mas week seems improbable at best. Granted, the sox posture speaks volumes about who is controlling this negotiation, but if some one doesn't blink soon, it won't happen. This is brinkmanship at it's best.

The only thing that will convince me that the deal is in the rearview mirror is when Scott Boras convenes a press conference.

Izzy, I don't think there is a time limit here. AROD is not going anywhere, the Sox can just go into the season with what they have, and if Hicks gets desperate enough, he may cave and call them. The only thing that gets complicated is the Nomar Magglio thing (which I'm not so sure was a done deal anyway). But the Sox are kind of in a win/win situation. Nomar is a pro and he will produce anyway, and at the end of the season (or before) if the Sox show him the money I think he will resign....

This needs to get done soon. Gammons is citing a source that says this will be done before XMAS. I'm tired of hearing about it.

I think there NEEDS to be a deadline on this thing, and I agree that it should be in the next couple of days. As previously stated, the front office has a lot of work to get done, like gettting another 2B, filling out the bench, and addressing the free agent class of 2004. Dragging this out for weeks will only impede this work, not to mention similar work that needs to be done for the Rangers and any other clubs waiting for this to happen/not happen.

Does anyone else have any comments on the Lucchino interview on WEEI this morning? I missed it and would love any additional information.

Thanks Homer. That was a good interview. I am psyched to have him here and I hope it keeps the writers on their toes to report correctly. This team needs a spokesman that is in the clubhouse!

Senor Split, no doubt arod aint goin anywhere if the deal doesn't happen, but the Mags deal could easily disappear tomorrow (it might already be gone). Kenny Williams is no dope, if his plan was to get pitching, he's not going to wait around for Boston to do so. Nomar is a premier player in his contract year, Mags is the same. How many other teams can offer that swap? We know who the natural buyers of Nomar are but will they have the currency when it's time he's back on the block. Timing is huge for a deal this year. Next year is another story, in fact, a deal would be a lot easier to do next year, but who knows what might occur on the demand side of the equation for Arod.

FF76,
I think as fans we want a deadline. But in the minds of braintrust, they can just move on like it is dead, but what if Hicks realizes they called his bluff and says Manny for AROD straight up, no cash, no prospects, no reworking of contracts, I'm sure the Sox would jump. But otherwise they can just move on like it is over. They are not going to sign Nomar before spring training anyway...This thing could potentially be feesable all the way throughout the season. I'm no expert and have no insider info. but I think the Sox could just pull away and if Texas gets jumpy, then the Sox could do it...just an opinion

"It would be a great birthday present if A Rod is signed by the end of the day today"

Have a good one NH - looks like we share the same one.

p.s. Guess this violates my "this isn't a chatroom" dialogues. I'll do penance for my digression.

He basically said that from the sox perspective it is done and if Boras calls they won't be talking to him about it - If Texas wants to do something more then they can do that - He also said Selig's gang is considering their options regarding whether and how to challenge the MLBPA claim to have veto power on these deals -
I did think it was interesting that when pressed on it he said that the sox had an agreement with Arod but the financial piece with Hicks apparently still was not resolved -

It has one. It's called Magglio Ordonez.

Any new news on the morning radio/TV about this issue? I still am thinking that this trade is dead...

Thanks BTW for the Schilling link

Izzy, I agree, Nomar/Magglio is definately in jeopardy if this drags. But I disagree that K.Williams is no dope (although the Colon deal was a good one)...I just think that if the Sox keep their poker face, Texas will fold. They have much more at stake IMO....

If anyone gets some concrete info please post

I feel bad for Mr. Francona if this thing falls through. It definitely wont be fun to repair/deal with the adversity that is undoubtedly going to occur should the trade not occur. As much as people say, "nomar and manny will be ok, they understand its a business," etc. etc. I dont think that it will be easily forgotten. just my opinion though. i have a feeling its going to happen, it just seems like everyone is choosing their words very carefully.

Cambridge,

Maybe the barstaff should create a forum that allows the chatty aspect. That's what I love about this site over Sosh - I get to hear other's real opinions. Or just allow the chatty aspect altogether. I don't think we should look up to Sosh and try to be like them. I think we should (and have) developed our own way of doing things.

Man, I love red sox nation. It's so cool how a whole region (plus some diehards around the country) can rally around a team.

Mr. Splitty,

I agree, but only to a point. The longer this drags on, the harder it will be to get a top-line outfielder, not to mention anything of quality for Nomar. I really like the Nomar-Mag's trade, but would hate to ship him away for just a few prospects. Drag this deal out much longer, and I'm afraid that's what may happen.

Lucky Luchino basically stated that the deal was in the rear view mirror for him. He was looking forward to getting back to the day to day operations of the RS. He wouldn't comment on if the deal was dead for the Rangers or JWH though. He talked about giving Nomar and Tellum a cooling off period before starting up talks again (he didn't sound to promising here). Callahan then stated that he wasn't a member of SOSH but could we expect JWH to make a post today. Lucky laughed it off then didn't respond. Gerry then said wasn't that easier to get your message out to thousands of people than using the internet.

Gerry seems pretty pissed off about the Schilling interview yesterday. :santa

Monkey, I think Nomar is pro. He may be pissed inside, but I think he will go to work and do his job much the same as he does now. I just don't think he is a big talker even if he is pissed. Manny will be the same either way. I don't think this will be a big issue, but then again I'm not in the dugout and don't have any insight on clubhouse dynamics. I just think the media puts more emphasis on this than the players do...could be wrong though..

i would like to think that as well, but if my bosses devoted a large portion of their time attempting to get rid of me, while my some of my coworkers seemed to have already moved on toward the future, despite the fact that i had not yet been fired.....i wouldn't be a very happy employee. but then again, i'm not making millions of dollars.

Unfortunately, I think Millar's comments added a divisive element to that clubhouse. I agree that the players will focus in their jobs (epecially Nomar), but the relationships between some of the players and the factions that inevitably form will undoubtedly be changed. While I could care less how much the players hug one another, team chemistry is arguably as valuable a component to winning as the tools on the field. That's where Francona comes in - he made some good commnets today in the globe, btw.

i just want to note that i have no doubt that nomar would continue to play hard despite all of this, and manny would continue to...be manny, but like you said, on the inside it would suck.

you evil monkey. I was a recruiter and I specialized in senior management in F500 companies and I can tell you that if there was an executive that was a big producer( even the best) and the CEO found out that the executive (let's call him nomar) really didn't want to work at his company for the offer he received that the CEO would call me that day to find a replacement. All the while Nomar would know this was going on and in the end of the day if Nomar stayed at the company there were never hard feelings. Because great players know that there are always someone better out there. they all just wanted to watch their own asses but when the deal was done they were team players again.

News Tidbit
White Sox GM Ken Williams as quoted in today's Daily Southtown:
"If the deal would come up again, we would revisit it and see if it makes sense for us at the time, but we move on."

Pretty noncommittal, but seemingly open to suggestions. The Maggs door hasn't been shut. Yet.

The other thing we need to keep in mind is Proffessional sports is so unlike anything we expirience personally. We may try to put ourselves in their shoes but the comparison doesn't really work. Nomar might have similar feelings to what we would have, but he may realize the nature of sports business. Teams need to be prepared for all possibilities. He may be mad and hurt, but if management does a good job of explaining their position he might come around, also he might not get better offers than what the sox offer and realize this is the best situation for him...or he could just hit like gangbusters and pick up a check elsewhere after the Sox win the WS....

Tim Sullivan of the San Diego Union-Tribune says there is hope

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/sulli...19sullivan.html



I haven't seen a link to this story on the board yet. So. I aplogize if it's already here.

:santa

The other thing I would like to add is the way you show respect in sports is $$$...so if the Sox $how their re$pect to Nomar, I think he can overcome his hurt feelins...
RE: San Diego Union-Tribune: BTW excellent line here...."Your friend is just mostly dead," the Billy Crystal character explains in "The Princess Bride." "Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all-dead, there's only one thing you can do – go through his clothes and look for loose change."


though I would change this line: "If I'm Rangers GM John Hart, I send out for pizza and sit by the phone." to Theo Epstein

Well, many of us don't agree. As far as I'm concerned, you can pack up this entire thread and move it to the saloon, or throw it into outer space for all I care. There's about 2 pages of worthwhile commentary, and 157 pages of useless chatty bullshit.

The idea of this forum, if I'm not mistaken, is not for users to post every single "opinion" that flies into their head, but to use some discretion and try to facilitate a discussion. If that sounds like too much for anyone, off to ProJo or ESPN, and good riddance.

This board has been a mess lately. Boarders like myself and others who like to put a bit of time and effort into making their posts worthwhile do not enjoy seeing themselves drowned out by 25 one-liners. And that also doesn't mean I want to read your 75-line rant about whatever crosses your mind.

Either the mods will take steps to correct this, or they'll lose anyone who takes this forum seriously.

Yeah, thanks to Dirt Dog for providing the space to put the MP3.

Anyone who was going to PM me for it can get it at bostondirtdogs instead.

So now what?

rsb

Orza, the Plantation Owner...

The irony here is delicious. Here is a little gem from a biography of Curt Flood who fought Major League Baseball because it reminded him of slavery. I guess the Players Association is the Master now...



Cluck, cluck...what's that sound?...my, I do believe those are chickens...coming home to roost.

FREE A-ROD, REMEMBER CURT FLOOD!!!!!!!!

Ahh come on now. Be happy that this possible trade has brought so many people out to "discuss" the issues. When it's over you can go back to he days of lore when only people that have master's degrees can pontificate about the really important issues. Lighten up.

Peter Gammons reaches into Manny's glove box, past the $40,000 check and grabs the MAGIC 8 Ball Manny uses in all his decision making. He looks around to make sure noone is around. He shakes it vigorously, whispering, "Is A-Rod coming to Boston?" He stares intently, waiting for the answer . . .

Meanwhile, Theo and the Trio put out a press release saying the proposed deal is dead. Selig ends talks and John Hart says the deal is possibly still alive, if someone will talk to him . . .please?! Ambiguity drifts into the world of major league baseball like a thick fog. It is getting hard to see. Eugene Orza gets interviewed by Dan Patrick; he is A-Rods Best friend now! Scott Boras relaxes wiping the fresh blood from his fangs..

The blue water settles in the 8 ball . . . the words come into focus . . . . "Outcome hazy"

Does anyone in the Sports media know how awesome the Pats are?

:santa

Screw Nomar....I am tired of reading about Mr. Hamm. This bonehead had his shot, deal was on the table and he chose not to pursue. I am sorry but if you like the fans and playing here mr. hamm, you take the money they offered....it was a good offer. It shows you that it really isn't about Boston...it is about nomie hamm. I say cut your ties with him and lets get this a-rod deal done for crying out loud.

Splitty,

Nevermind that crap about offering him money.....the best thing we can do for him is open the door and give him a boot in thee arsss.

Think for a moment...we offered him 15 mil a year to play for us and he said NO. What does that say to us fans.....it tells me that we are not worth it.

I am glad Millar spoke up and said he would rather have a-rod......Millar is a genuine ball player....he is here because he loves the team and the fans.....If in fact Nomie Hamm does confront him about his comments....I hope Millar gives him a FAT lip....Beantown Style.

The mistake Henry made was not doing this deal like Schilling's deal.

Trade FIRST--then negotiate with ARod.

What probably happened was Hicks was asking for extra money to pay
Manny's salary--and Henry's plan was to get it by renegotiating with ARod.
Hicks made trading first too difficult with his excessive money demand.
So, you can blame Henry's predicament on Hicks.

But having to deal in the open BEFORE the trade was made--and having to deal
with the Players Union and it's legal counsel who, I understand, is a Yankee
fan (!) was a bit much.

It's getting to the point where the Players Union is just too strong in MLB--
I don't know if the sport will survive with the status quo. After all, the fans
are paying for the salary escalation--and at some point they will stop.

How can this deal still be made?
Hicks has to drop his money demands and take another player or two
instead.
Which is what he should have done in the first place.

rrsafety,
I disagree that MLPA is wrong in this. The idea for a union is to keep everyone on the same page for the good of EVERY MEMBER, not just the highest paid one. They are just enforcing rules that the owners agreed to in the CBA. I can't think of any instance when a union, any union mind you, would give in to ANY management (read ownership) demands. It doesn't work like that....Besides you can just sense the contempt Orza has for LLucky... I'm sure legally AROD could challenge this, but why would he want to? Why alienate himself from his fellow players.

Fellow recruiter I do the same for International Professional Services firms Law, Accounting and Consulting (Mostly in NYC.) I agree I would receive the same call from a Managing Partner if one of his best did the same













Grady Little could have screwed up a one horse race