As we draw closer to the trade deadline, it should be interesting to see where the wild roller coaster also know as Danny Ainge takes us next. The possiblities have been frequent lately- trading Blount, McCarty, and Pierce look as relevant as ever- but is that even the best decision? The choice to rebuild is obviously on Ainge's and Celtics' fans' minds alike, but it may be smarter to make a move to better yourself this year. For instance, your team is in 1st place, though its sub-.500, and all it has to do is hold onto that position. You could easily glide into the playoffs with a number 3+ seed if Ainge makes a move for a Baron Davis, or someone who will not come over to rebuild, but instead beef up.

So, if I'm still making sense, my question to fellow Celtics fans is whether we beef up our lineup or reheat the beef we have.

Thoughts?

I would like to see Blount traded, even though it won't happen. I would like to see the C's get something for Gary, considering he is leaving after this year anyway. And, I wouldn't mind seeing Pierce go, if they can get good value for him (young players with upside, or good draft picks; no other players with big contracts). I was thinking Davis could also go, but it would be hard for me to trade him, with the way he has been playing lately.

IMO, I would like to see Delonte, Marcus, Big Al, Perks, and Tony Allen get more playing time. It is exciting when they are out there, so why not get them more experience for next year.

I am probably in the minority, but I want to see Gary Payton finish the season wearing green. He is a great talent, and it certainly doesn't hurt Delonte and Marcus playing behind them. Delonte is a rook, and Marcus is only a second year player. Playing behind a vet like Gary Payton will do nothing but allow them to watch and learn from one of the best point guards of our era.

I completely agree. Payton is a great mentor for the younger guys to have, we should keep him around for the rest of the season.

As for Blount, he is untradeable. No one will take him, especially with his contract.

The only way I move Pierce is if we can get a young superstar for him (highly unlikely), or if we move him for multiple 1st rounders. I don't see us getting any of that from any team, so Pierce will most likely stay.

Davis is playing great right now, which means now is as good a time to trade him as any. Buy low, sell high. His value may never be higher than it is right now. If the Celtics do not want to trade him, then they can move Jiri and give Ricky more minutes.

Overall, I like the general direction that the Celtics are heading in. They could easily be contending for a title in 2 or 3 years if they can acquire more young talent either through trade or through the draft.

If I was Danny Ainge the first thing I would do is fire myself.

That post alone makes you my favorite poster.

I don't know how many of you got a chance to see the whole article (it was on ESPNInsider) but I agree with what Chad Ford said about how the Celtics can radically rebuild. Here are some of the suggestions from Ford:

Pierce, Blount, and Gugliotta to the 76ers for Samuel Dalembert, Andre Igoudala, Glenn Robinson, and Kedrick Brown. Gugliotta, Robinson, and Brown would be included in the deal for cap relief because each has an expiring contract. This deal would clear $14 million in cap room for the Celtics and gives them two very good young players. Good for the Sixers because O'brien wants Blount who fits better in his offensive and defensive schemes, plus Pierce and Blount are proven players in O'brien's system while Dalembert has been a bad fit. The stumbling blocks would be whether or not the Sixers would really want to give up two young players. Also the Celtics would have to fork over some major cash to Dalembert in the summer as he will be a restricted free agent.

Suggestion #2 is moving Payton, Davis, and LaFrentz to Minnesota for the expiring contracts of Sprewell and Johnson. Plus the Wolves would need to throw in a young player like Ndudi Ebi. This deal would clear another $20 million in cap room for the Celtics.

Basically the C's roster would look like this:
PG: West, Banks
SG: Igoudala, Allen
SF: Welsch, Ebi
PF: Jefferson, Perkins
C: Dalembert

They would take a nosedive in the standings, as Ford points out, but this up coming draft is full of great PG prospects and the drop in the standings would likely give the Celtics a high lottery pick in the draft. Perhaps, giving them a chance to get their hands on someone like Chris Paul.

While some of the cleared cap room would go to the re-signing of Dalembert, there would significant room left over to pursue a guy like Ray Allen or Michael Redd via free agency.

Ainge has already shown that he isn't afraid to make moves with reckless abandon, why not go crazy?

I read that ESPNInsider article as well, and if Ainge could pull that off he should, however most ESPN "journalists" pull more NBA trade scenarios out of their ass and would be better served joining forces with the Ben Sheets Brigade from the Hot Stove Thread in the On The Field Forum...

Anyway, I think they should totally tear it down and rebuild. If you can't win a championship, that is what you should do. I would rather a lottery pick than a first-round bowout. Remember, these are supposed to be the Boston Celtics, now when are they going to be the Boston Celtics again. Yeah that was fun a couple years ago in the Eastern Conference Finals but I digress...

Imagine if they tore it down 15 years ago. This would not be a thread.

Interesting point in that article about Jim O'Brien supposedly willing to "welcome Blount to the Sixers with open arms" because he has thrived in O'Brien's "system" in the past... I wonder if there is a spot in O'Brien's system for Byung Hyun Kim as well? I heard he was pretty good at NBA 2K3 on his PS2...

We have been rebuilding long enough; it takes 2-3 years minimum to develop high school kids, just in time for them to ask for big money or leave as free agents.

I think that we have stockpiled enough draft picks already(don't we have 2 #1's again this year?)

The other problem is that the top players don't want to come to a cold weather climate unless you overpay like the Knicks do(NY is different in terms market anyway). So:

Best way to get better now is through deals. Dump Raef's deal if you can. (Sprewell??)
Steal 'Toine back from the Hawks for players and a late #1 pick (Lakers pick), but only if you can get him to agree to a deal at around $10 mill a year, which he should take at this point. Deal Payton only if it doesn't kill you now, and helps in the future. Deal for a serviceable big man for the bench if you can. 15-20 minute guy at most.

New lineup:

pg-Payton/Banks/West
2g-Pierce/Davis/Sprewell/Jiri
sf/pf-Sprewell/Ricky Davis/'Toine
pf-'Toine/Jefferson
C-Blount/Kedrick/'Toine-played C for Dallas in the right matchups and can in the East.


This lineup could make a run in the East and would be positioned to contend with a few pieces/breaks over the next couple of seasons. Cap room from Sprewell's(or whoever is acquired for Raef) deal in the offseason.

Ownership can't afford to tank again, as they have some of the highest ticket prices in the league and falling attendance/season ticket holder base. They will try and contend while building. Obviously tough to do.

Just my 2cents

What high school kids? The only high schooler in the bunch is Al Jefferson and he has already shown this year that he can contribute.

I think if the celtics want to go anywhere in the playoffs they need to go out and get a big quality center, that should take some preasure, someone like a Eddie Curry, he has shown some of the star that everyone thought he would be when he was first drafted.

Although Curry has shown flashes this year, I would much rather have Dalembert. He is great defensively and is very athletic. His offensive skills are raw but he has the potential to be a great center. Especially in the East.

Not even a quality center, just a servicable one.

My buddy came up with this idea and it makes sense...

C's Trade: PG - Banks (he's shown zero improvement) and SF - McCarty (odd man out with Allen, Jiri, and Ricky ahead of him)

Nuggets Trade: Nene

C's get a guy that can pull down rebounds, block some shots and fill the void left by Jefferson. Nuggets get two players that can play some D, which is what they really, really need. McCarty can also provide some offense to a non-running team.

Now I wasn't always a huge fan of Raef, but the guy has grown on me. I don't see a huge need to move him. Yes, his contract is disgusting, but if he were making say, Blount money, we'd be raving about how good he is. He isn't spectacular, but, aside from Ricky and Tony Allen, he's probably the guy that best fits their offense. He's the absolute perfect trailer and he can stick those wide open threes and mid-range jumpers. Also, he's pretty good on the boards as well and plays some solid D. Seeing that his contract is so awful, he's not going anywhere, but I'd certainly rather be stuck with him than Blount.

sorry no way denver trade nene. I would like to see gary traded for a 1 round pick or a young player and see if you can trade walter for a second

It's funny, when Ainge came in it took all of five minutes for Peter May -- during his brief respites from typing the words "international waters" over and over again -- to rake him over the coals for the moves he made. This even though he got rid of an overachiever better suited to a veteran team (Eric Williams), a couple of underachievers (Battie and Kedrick Brown), and a player (Antoine Walker) who dominated the ball much more than he dominated the game.

That he drove Jim O'Brien out of town was regrettable, but to tell you the truth, this year's Celtics team is far more exciting than the one Obie led to the conference finals. They don't always win, but at least they're fun to watch.

So, now we have a new system, a bunch of young players, and because guys like Pierce and Blount -- who spent virtually their whole careers in the Pitino/ O'Brien system -- have been a little slow to catch on, there are all these cries to blow the whole thing up and rebuild.

I don't get it. Didn't Ainge already blow the team up and rebuild? Wasn't he derided for a lack of patience? Now, all of a sudden, God forbid, he shows a little patience, and the consensus (from the same people who couldn't understand his quick trigger last year) is that he should dump everyone over the age of 24?

Meanwhile, if anyone's actually been watching in the past week or so, Blount -- who has been lost all year in the new defensive schemes -- is starting to catch on and do some very good things. Pierce is loosening up, and playing the best basketball he's played since that big playoff run a few years ago. And all the players Ainge has drafted have been showing marked improvement.

Yes, it's a work in progress still. But it's not a work in progress with no hope.

So, I say, trade Walter if Phoenix is interested in that again. It's win-win, because he gets to go somewhere and play for a winner -- the right thing for us to do for him after years of service -- and we don't have to worry about him taking minutes from young guys.

Trade Payton if there's value to be had. But otherwise, forget it. He's a valuable mentor not only to the young guards, but to Pierce and Ricky Davis, too.

LaFrentz, because of the contract, but he's young enough that he can still help us when the team really puts it together in 2-3 years. So if there's no clear winner of a deal, skip it.

Trade Googs, just because the IR revolving door is not what he signed up for.

Otherwise, we have a decent stockpile of draft picks, and so far Danny Ainge seems to have done a better than average job of using those picks. So unless there's a deal that can work both short and long term -- say, a 3-way sending Payton to a contender and bringing us Baron Davis -- why not just give this team a chance to jell, and add pieces through the draft?

I don't see any need, in any circumstance, to take on any team's spare parts or unwanted baggage, unless we have a specific target for the cap $$ we potentially free up. And I sure as hell don't see a need to trade Pierce -- you might find talent to make up for his loss, but I don't think that his combination of talent and will is exactly a dime a dozen commodity. Now, if he can't make it work in the running game next season, that's another story. But right now, he seems to be starting to get it, and I think you give a player like that all the time you can.

It's tough to say rebuild when they're already rebuilding. Do I think they should send off GP? Yes. Do I think they should trade Pierce? In the right situation, maybe. Blount? Absolutely, but that's just because he sucks (IMHO). I think that as currently constructed they're probably going to finish the season a couple of games above .500. I think next year they'll be a lot better, and in '06-'07, they will be very, very good. So should they rebuild completely? No. But if they want to continue the process if the right deal comes up, absolutely.

Perk too; not sold on him at all. Also talking about the draft coming up; if u deal Pierce or Payton for picks and salary cap room like some suggest, then you likely are taking high school projects, or at best a kid with 1 or 2 years of college ball, in the middle of the first round. Not many Okafors out there anymore.

Jefferson is not the only rookie, they got that Kendrick Perkins kid down in the paint too. But I think both are tied up 3+ years. Could be wrong...



I agree 1000%. The only thing I disagree with is your "it was regrettable that Jim O'Brien got the boot" opinion. At the time that it happend, I was bummed, but right now I like Doc Rivers a lot more. Rivers has them playing a much, much, much better system. None of this issolation basketball crap. They have ball movement, they are running the floor, they arn't standing around waiting to get the ball. Rather, they are moving to the ball. The way basektball is meant to be played.

So right now, I vote for keep this team intact unless you get a deal that would impossible to turn down (unless it is for a useless cap eatter like Goog's). The kids are improving, the vets are playing well, no need to mess this up.

Kendrick Perkins is a 2nd year player.

Semantics; Perkins is a high school draft pick who didn't really play last year. He is behind Jefferson in development; all he did last year was lose weight...

The last player the Celtics are acquiring is Antoine Walker. And I doubt Spreewell comes without us giving up Pierce/Payton/Davis- partially because we'd have 4 worthy starters at 3 positions. And yes, I still believe that Davis can return to the form he was in back at Cleveland when he was their star player.

If I were to rebuild this team, my main focus would be to ease TWO, players into key roles: Banks and Jefferson. Only them- there is no way I trade the entire team just to make room for Jiri Welsch, Tony Allen, Delonte West, etc., as promising as they may be.

In order to make more playing time for Jefferson, I'd package McCarty and Blount to Philly for Glenn Robinson. Done. Robinson will play behind Ricky Davis when healthy.

In order to make room for Banks/West, I'd trade Payton and a 1st Rounder to Atlanta for Al Harrington and Josh Childress. That leaves the Celts like this for the rest of the season:

PG: Marcus Banks/Childress/West
SG: Paul Pierce/Welsch/Allen
SF: Ricky Davis/Robinson*/Gugliotta
PF: Al Harrington/Jefferson*/LaFrentz
C: Raef LaFrentz/Jefferson*/Perkins

*: When healthy

Now, where Banks is now a starter, Jefferson is a backup, only at two positions. I think Jefferson could become a decent center, and playing as a backup to both Harrington and LaFrentz could only increase his speed in becoming a dominant forward/center. As for Banks, it would be his job to lose- and he already lost an easy job to keep once (cough... Mike James...)

My only question is whether or not its financially possible with the NBA trade regulations for the Robinson trade. I would go to realgm.com to find out but simply put, I dont feel like it.

Banks (he's shown zero improvement)

Ignorant.
Banks's Ass/TO ratio is very good.
His shot has improved.
He's learning when and how to pass.
"Zero" improvement...

As for the other posts...

The team "needs" to rebuild?
The team "is" rebuilding?
The team has rebuilt.

We could field an entire starting five of talented 1st and 2nd year players:
West, Banks, Allen, Jefferson, Perkins (and Reed as an extra).
In the summer league that was in fact the starting five, and they looked fantastic together.

No need to radically alter the roster anymore.
Trade Walter, Googs, Yogi, Blount for more youth via late 1st or early 2nd round picks, fine.

Keep Payton the rest of the year, because we could do a little damage in the playoffs, and his example helps our future point guards, that is - BOTH Marcus and Delonte, and any playoff success will help the youngsters learn how to win.

Keep Pierce, period. If he continues to play like he has recently, then he will remain a top 10 or top 15 player for several years to come. Sure, he's not a cornerstone for a champion. Big Al is. Let Big Al age and when Pierce is 30, 31, 32, etc. the Celtics will be in the semi-finals and finals every year, and probably win a ring or two.

Keep Raef, if he stays healthy. His contract is horrendous, yeah. But what big man's contract isn't horrendous? If a team wants to take him, by all means, trade him. But don't package him with anything valuable just to unload his contract.

Keep Ricky Davis. Efficiency, hustle, the potential to be a 20-25 ppg game if Pierce is injured or traded, only about 24 yrs old, and signed for cheap for another few years. Almost nothing we could get in return would be as valuable as Ricky and his talent, contract, and age.

Not sure about Jiri Welsch. Seems like a sharpshooter, but then goes stale. Seems like a possible point guard, but then can't dribble out of traffic worth shit. He's young and cheap, and he's also a hard-worker, so he's worth the risk. But if the right deal comes along...

Anyone who thinks Danny Ainge hasn't done a good job either knows NOTHING ABOUT BASKETBALL or has not followed the Celtics for the last five years.

Or they read too much Peter May. But otherwise, you just about nailed it.

re: Jiri -- He's definitely not a point guard, and he's played much looser even as a 3 than as a 2. He's very fundamentally sound, but his decision-making comes and goes. When he tries to do too much, he gets into a lot of jams that he can't get out of. And when he's out there with the first unit, he fades into the background. But get him out there with a mix of first and second unit players, put him in a position to succeed, and he does some nice things, particularly with the mid-range game. A lower ceiling than the guys Ainge has drafted, but he should develop into a very valuable bench player for years to come, whether it's for the Celtics or elsewhere. You just don't find a lot of players who grasp the basics, across the board, as well as he does.

re: Blount -- everyone is down on him, particularly for his lack of rebounding. But if you watch him closely, I don't think you'll count more than one or two times a game that he fails to box out. There is not a single other player on the Celtics about whom that can be said. I'm not saying that he's just been unlucky, but I do think his lack of rebounding has more to do with adjusting to a new defensive system than with him being the terrible player people make him out to be.

No, he's not as long as Perkins, or as smooth in the post as Jefferson, but he's the best passing big man on the team. He's more consistent with that baseline 18-footer, or the jumper from just above the elbow, than any other player on the team, big or small. He defends the pick and roll as well as any big man in the league -- he doesn't just blitz it, he gets low and very wide, cutting off the guard's options. He runs the floor well, which means, yes, he can fit this system, and will only fit it better as he adjusts to the defensive schemes.

I suspect that at some point during his 5-year deal, it won't make a lot of sense to keep him around with Perk and Jefferson. Right now, though, he's in the "only trade him if there's a good trade to be had category." He shouldn't be lumped in the McCarty/ Googs/ Michael Stewart category, and he shouldn't be dumped solely because of his salary (which isn't quite as outrageous as people imply).

He is still a highschool player and is relevant to the quote that I included in my post:

Wow, you make some terrific points about Blount.

He does blitz the pick and roll well. And he is almost automatic from about 15. And he is a pretty good passer, too. I always remember early last year he made this SICK one-handed off-the-dribble pass that was - seriously - reminiscient of Magic Johnson. Yet his passing is kind of eclipsed by all the times that he's outrebounded by wing-types (the opposing team's and our own). Rebounding isn't ONLY a matter of boxing out. And you kind of forget all the good stuff when the image of him fumbling good passes under the net and getting stripped on most of his lame low-post "moves" is burned into your mind.

But you're totally right about his trade category, and the relative value of his contract.
I stand corrected!

This thread title makes me think you're doing some sort of weird Being John Malkovich riff.

Ignorant? Did you even do your homework?

He's not listening to his coach. He's brushing off Payton when he's tried to take him under his wing. Doc has sat him due to his immaturity and unwillingness to listen. PPG are down, SPG are down (and he was picked because of his defensive ability), APG are down, and his FG% is down (even though "His shot has improved."). The guy has incredible speed, but never uses it to his advantage.

The guy is getting beat off the ball on the back door and he looks like a matador when they C's run the half court defense (which is great because the C's have don't have a big shotblocker). Hey, I'll give him credit, his turnovers are down, he's great in the press, and he has the potential to be deadly if he could just learn to drive to the hoop more and draw fouls. I mean, he could be a real nuisance for other teams because no one can stop his speed. However, he doesn't do that and too many parts of his game that should be improving haven't. Aside from his improvement in turnovers, he's still the same player as he was last year. Maybe that's Obie's fault because he never played him, so this is basically his actual rookie season.

So, all in all, he has shown zero improvement. I also feel like he's been getting more PT lately because he's being showcased to other teams, but maybe that's just me.

There's definitely more to rebounding than boxing out, and Blount needs to improve. But I do think there are plenty of times when he's the one who clears the space that allows Pierce, Payton, or Ricky to get in on the defensive boards. And there are definitely times when either his role, or his misunderstanding of his role, on defense takes him out of rebounding position (but even still, he at least finds a body and boxes out). But he is the guy who last year had the first Celtics 20 rebound game since, what Robert Parish? And lately, while he's not getting a lot of boards, he seems to grab them down the stretch when it matters most. I'm not satisfied with his rebounding, by any means, but I do think there's hope as the season goes on.

And yeah, his post game is a lot like mine. "Will you just stop guarding me, dammit, so I can show you that I have some moves?!" His moves in the post are at about half the speed they need to be in order to be effective.

I might give him a little too much credit, but he's a guy who was a total stiff three years ago. He hustled, but couldn't do much more than foul, foul, and maybe turn the ball over. He was behind Vitaly Freaking Potapenko on the depth chart. He has clearly worked hard to get better, and while he's not going to make us forget the Chief anytime soon, he has improved tremendously. So I'm inclined to cut him some slack.

On a separate note, not that this would ever happen, but RealGM didn't seem to mind:

Boston trades:
PG Gary Payton
(12.1 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 6.2 apg in 32.9 minutes)
Michael Stewart
(No games yet played in 2004/05)
SF Walter McCarty
(3.6 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.5 minutes)

Boston receives:
PG Baron Davis
(19.7 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 7.3 apg in 33.8 minutes)

Change in team outlook: +4.0 ppg, -0.7 rpg, and +0.5 apg.
(My note: all the contracts they get in this scenario expire this year or next)


New Orleans trades:
PG Baron Davis
(19.7 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 7.3 apg in 33.8 minutes)

New Orleans receives:
Michael Stewart
(No games yet played in 2004/05)
C Greg Ostertag
(1.6 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.5 apg in 9.7 minutes) 
PG Bobby Jackson
(11.9 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 2.3 apg in 21.7 minutes)

Change in team outlook: -6.2 ppg, +2.1 rpg, and -4.5 apg.


Sacramento trades:
C Greg Ostertag
(1.6 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.5 apg in 9.7 minutes) 
PG Bobby Jackson
(11.9 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 2.3 apg in 21.7 minutes)

Sacramento receives:
PG Gary Payton
(12.1 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 6.2 apg in 32.9 minutes) 
SF Walter McCarty
(3.6 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.5 minutes)

Change in team outlook: +2.2 ppg, -1.4 rpg, and +4.0 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

You have been assigned Trade ID number 2226815

Please direct me to the published account of Marcus blowing off Gary's counsel.

He doesn't listen enough to his coach.
How many rookies do?

Also, I think the answer to all your stat-hawking is Payton.
He's not getting as much playing time because the Celtics have a HOFer PG.
As opposed to Upchucky Atkins.

Also, re: stats.
FG% is down a little, fine.
But his 3PT% is way up.
His FT% is up.
His rebounds are level even though fewer minutes.
Like I said, Ass/TO ratio is better.
His steals are down, but steals are about as accurate a measure of defense as putouts are in baseball. His defense is still ferocious, and apart from rookie mistakes like losing his man and mistakes from over-aggressiveness, like going for a steal and missing, his defense is superb. Did you see how he bothered Hinrich?

More importantly, looking at his averages is not going to help you see how he's improved. Check out his game log:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3716/gamelog

Let's take his shooting.
A few strings of bad games, and a few strings of good games.
In other words, streaky.
What, is he supposed to be Ray Allen, 126 games into his career?
Look at his threes.
1 for 1, 1 for 1, 0 for 1, 1 for 1, three 0 for 1's, 1 for 4, 1 for 1, 1 for 2, 2 for 3...
You expected more from Marcus Banks this year?

The measure of Marcus was supposed to be whether he would have more good games per bad games. He was supposed to go from 1 good game for every 3 or 4 bad games to a 1:1 ratio. I think he's done that.

I think it was Ed Pinckney.





Same here!

It's in the Sport Guy's archive, so go drop the bucks to be an 'Insider' and find it yourself.



Al Jefferson, Tony Allen, and Kendrick Perkins all say hi. He's also not a rookie anymore, so that excuse doesn't really cut it. So he's blown off one future HoF PG and doesn't listen to his coach, who was a good guard back in his day. This is supposed to defend your point that he's improved?



He's getting more MPG than he did last year.



Yes, hence why I said that he's shown 'zero improvement'



The measure of a point guard like Marcus, a guy that should fit right into a fast break offense, should be his ability to run said offense. Banks isn't even running the show on the 2nd squad, Ricky does most of the work. Banks can't make an entry pass to save his life

As for the rest, you cherry picked stats like his 3 point field lines. Am I supposed to be impressed because he goes 1 for 1 in a couple games (when those opportunities come from wide open threes on the wing)? His 3-point shooting ability doesn't excite me. He's a point guard, he should be showing me something in terms of court vision, making the guys around him look better, using his speed to get to the foul line, and feeding the ball inside to Al and Perk. The fact that he can hit a wide open three when Ricky drives the lane and kicks it out to him doesn't show improvement to me. Those are shots he should be hitting.

He's a perimeter point guard, which is useless in this system. Hey, if Obie were here, Banks would be great. But Obie isn't here, this isn't a team that stands around the arc and hoists up ill-advised threes all night. With West back it's only a matter of time before Banks starts losing even more PT. West may not have his speed, but he's a better scorer, good defender, and he has great court vision.

I agree with you; my reply was meant for SKMarinaro, who said that Jefferson is the only high school kid. Also, Banks came out early and is essentially as raw as these guys

[quote=The Love Below,Feb 4 2005, 07:05 AM]
It's in the Sport Guy's archive, so go drop the bucks to be an 'Insider' and find it yourself.
Al Jefferson, Tony Allen, and Kendrick Perkins all say hi. He's also not a rookie anymore, so that excuse doesn't really cut it. So he's blown off one future HoF PG and doesn't listen to his coach, who was a good guard back in his day. This is supposed to defend your point that he's improved?
He's getting more MPG than he did last year.
Yes, hence why I said that he's shown 'zero improvement'
The measure of a point guard like Marcus, a guy that should fit right into a fast break offense, should be his ability to run said offense. Banks isn't even running the show on the 2nd squad, Ricky does most of the work. Banks can't make an entry pass to save his life

I'll take it one step further: Banks is a bust. They already traded him once. He would look good in a Hawks uniform in an Antoine deal.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3716

TLB, he absolutely is NOT getting more MPG.
17.1 mpg last year, 14.4 mpg this year.

In the summer league, playing entire games uptempo...
He fed the ball quite well to Big Al and Tony.

Last year he was killed for having a horrible shot.
Everyone said he needed a solid outside game to keep his defender honest and exploit his real strength, which is slashing for lay-ups and short pull-ups (and more and more this year, easy dishes). His outside game improved, and now you're dismissing him as a "perimeter" point guard?

He is the furthest thing from a perimeter point guard.
Now I know you have no idea.



Wow, now that you mention it...that's a career killer!
Everybody knows that entry-pass-makers aren't made, they're born.
If he can't make an entry pass now, he never will...
And god knows how important the entry pass is to the fast break.

As for blowing off Payton...
I'm not paying Insider fees, and I'm not taking your word for it.
I mean, you're assuming that Bill Simmons has 100% accurate dirt?
And you're assuming that if the dirt is correct, that whatever transpired wasn't temporary?
You want me to believe it, then post a paraphrasing of it, or the pertinent info verbatim, preferably.

We also traded for him once, remember. Memphis drafted Banks and Perkins. We drafted Troy Bell and Dahntay Jones. Then we made a draft-day deal with the "best GM in the business" and swapped our picks.

So before you go calling Banks a bust, have you seen Troy Bell's numbers lately? Oh, that's right. You haven't. Because he's out of the league.

Now, did he ignore Payton, Rivers, et all early in the season? Maybe. I might do the same thing if you traded me away and then tried to say "oops, we didn't mean that." But I have a hard time believing that that's still the case when Doc is starting to show some trust in Marcus, and Marcus is starting to be a steadier presence on the court.

Now, is Marcus ready to be a starting point guard? No way. But has he improved? Absolutely. You might find some statistics that suggest otherwise. Be my guest. I watch the games. I saw that it was Marcus Banks, not Gary Payton, who turned the game around in the win against the Bulls last week by controlling the tempo of the game at both ends of the floor. I have seen him improve his awareness of where his teammates are when he penetrates increase throughout the season. He's even started to show an understanding in the past week and a half of when not to take it to the hoop.

He's a point guard. These things are more important for a point guard than stats. And let's not forget, he was drafted as an athlete and a scorer, destined only by his size to be an NBA point guard. Even a pass-first, "true" point guard is going to take a couple years to really become an NBA point guard.

Given the complete overhaul Ainge has given the Celtics in the past year and a half, I don't see the harm in having a little patience with the young guys we have.

Personally, I'd like to see a little more of what we saw in garbage time against the Nets: Banks and Delonte West on the floor together. They're both scorers, but in different ways, and both can play a little point.

Oh, that's right.

Maybe that's why Danny signed Blount to that extension...to reward him for erasing Pinckney from whatever small place he had in the Celtics record books (not as "most rebounds," obviously, but still as "most recent...") -- maybe allowing us to forget that we ever traded away Danny Ainge. Now we can just look back and remember that as the "Brad Lohaus for Joe Kleine" trade.

Ryan Gomes says HI!

I like it when star athletes say hi to me.
I feel important now.

And Kedrick Brown was a monster in the summer league a few years ago. That worked out well. Anyway, what's your point?



The fact that other guys run his squad and he stands around the arc, waiting for the ball to be kicked out to him. Plus, like I said before, those are wide open looks. He's supposed to hit those shots.



I guess we have something in common when it comes to basketball then.



He also can't run the fast break. Like I said before, Ricky runs his squad.



You're right, I'm lying because it's so important for me to win this "debate."



Hey, dope, didn't I say that it's on Insider? Hence I can't even view the article. He's been in the doghouse with Doc all year, he blew off Payton, who isn't even going to bother mentoring the kid.

I would also like for people to have more patience with Marcus. I still think he can be a great point guard, if he is given the chance. The reason he is struggling now is that he has had to change his game. In college, he was the scorer on the team. He had to do the scoring. Now, he has to go back to running the point, and I think that given some time and oppurtunity, he will get better and better. He has already improved from last year.

Gomes won't be a star in the NBA; he's a hard worker but unfortunately guys with his size and skill set are a dime a dozen. Of course, I went to UCONN, so I am biased.

Like your idea of moving Blount, but would want something more from Philly than an expiring contract. Dalembert would get it done; restricted F.A. next season. Big men are tough to find, espec. in the East. Blount is playing better and adjusting to the new system, hitting those 15 footers on a regular basis.

Why would Atlanta give up 2 young players for Payton?? I guess they could move him back west, but still makes no sense.

Celts F.O. has acknowledged their interest in Antoine; he has matured/been humbled, and it would take the focus off of Pierce. Love the Celtics cold shower talk.

RSJ, why the hell would Atlanta trade us Harrington, a very young, very good player, and Josh Childress, the sixth pick in this year''s draft? That doesn't even begin to make sense. And yes RSJ, the Celtics are looking at getting 'Toine, and it's a move I'd be glad to make because I like the guy. I wouldn't send Payton to ATL though. He deserves to go to a SanAntonio, Minnesota, or other team with a good chance to grab a title this year. I want the guy to get a ring.

Ainge's first great mistake was signing a backup center
like Blount to a long term contract--and making him a starter.
He should know the Celtics never win without a center
who can rebound. That's their history.
Not with the fast break game he wants to go back to.

So now he's stuck with an expensive stiff at center.
That means write this season off.
Maybe next year, when Jefferson and Perkins are ready for major minutes,
and LaFrentz is more back to his game 2 years off his knee injury,
they'll be strong enough up front to be competitive through the whole
league, not just that bad Eastern division.

Where's Tony Battie when you need him...

I think an interesting trade scenario could be had with Washington due to their abundance in Centers:

This Trade was Accepted, but Washington looks to be getting far too little. And for those of you not sold on Haywood, he ranks 5th in the NBA in Rebounds per 48 Minutes, with 5+.

Washington trades:
C Brendan Haywood (8.9 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 27.1 minutes)
PF Samaki Walker (1.7 ppg, 1.2 rpg, 0.2 apg in 9.5 minutes)

Washington receives:
SF Kedrick Brown (1.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 7.3 minutes)

Change in team outlook: -9.1 ppg, -6.6 rpg, and -0.6 apg.

Boston trades:
SF Walter McCarty (3.7 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.4 minutes)
SG Jiri Welsch (8.1 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 1.7 apg in 21.7 minutes)

Boston receives:
C Brendan Haywood (8.9 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 27.1 minutes)
PF Samaki Walker (1.7 ppg, 1.2 rpg, 0.2 apg in 9.5 minutes)

Change in team outlook: -1.2 ppg, +3.6 rpg, and -1.2 apg.


Philadelphia trades:
SF Kedrick Brown (1.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 7.3 minutes)

Philadelphia receives:
SF Walter McCarty (3.7 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.4 minutes)
SG Jiri Welsch (8.1 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 1.7 apg in 21.7 minutes)

Change in team outlook: +10.3 ppg, +3.0 rpg, and +1.8 apg.



Basically, the deal comes down to how much Kedrick Brown is worth. While he is obviously NOT a 1.5 ppg worth guy, where does his value end? To Washington, who's best SF is Jarvis Hayes, probably enough to pull the trigger. The Celtics get the 2 big men they could obviously use, and Walker would become a useful backup to Al Jefferson.


Lineup:
PG: Payton/Banks/West
SG: Pierce/Davis*/Allen
SF: Davis/Pierce*/Reed
PF: Blount/Jefferson/Walker
C: Haywood/LaFrentz/Perkins


Once again, I'm not suggesting this trade is even fair. In my opinion, Washington gets ripped off- but I'm just bringing up the idea of Haywood. And Blount has a trade kicker on him that would make it extremely difficult to trade him. A McCarty swap straght-up for Haywood is possible contract wise, but the Wizards probably wouldnt pull the trigger. In the trade above, throw a 1st round pick at the Wizards (from the Sixers) and I say it gets done.

How is Haywood a significant upgrade over Blount? I didn't really notice him one way or another last time I watched the Celtics play the Wizards, since it was pretty much the Larry Hughes show, so I'm not saying he isn't. But glancing at the numbers, he gives you slightly less scoring and slightly more rebounding in roughly the same minutes...but not enough rebounding to make me think that he would do much to solve the Celts' rebounding woes.

Meanwhile, I don't even think I would do Walter McCarty for Samaki Walker straight up.

I agree. I would not do this deal. It wouldn't improve the team at all.

He ranks in the top 15 in the NBA for quite a few forward/center categories. I can't remember off the top of my head, but blocks per 48 minutes and offensive rebounds per 48 both come to mind. I'll go check, but I do agree that his per game stats arent exactly glamorous. I do remember being impressed when his stats are borken down to per 48 minutes though.

OK...

Haywood's Stats:
Ranks 14th in NBA in Total Blocks with 74
Ranks 5th in NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes with 5.6
Ranks 17th in NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes with 3.07
Ranks 38th in NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes with 12.2
Has 160 Total Defensive Rebounds, 3.70 Per Game
Has 386 Total Points, 0.334 Per Minute
Has 66 Turnovers, 2.74 Per 48 Minutes
On Pace to Make 268 Shots Through 500 Field Goals
The Percentage of Free Throws AND Field Goals Made is 0.568

Blount's Stats:
Ranks 47th in NBA in Total Blocks with 44
Ranks outside of top 50 in NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes with 3.22
Ranks 43rd in NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes with 1.54
Ranks outside of top 50 in NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes with 8.83
Has 160 Total Defensive Rebounds, 3.30 Per Game
Has 488 Total Points, 0.356 Per Minute
Has 106 Turnovers, 3.71 Per 48 Minutes
On Pace to Make 266 Shots Through 500 Field Goals
The Percentage of Free Throws AND Field Goals Made is 0.577


Now, to be fair, I also included a couple categories that Blount is better than Haywood in- i.e., not many- but one category that shcoked me was Blounts supposedly awesome field goal percentage, which Haywood actually tops. There is no denying that in Rebounds and Blocks, Haywood is the obvious choice- and Rebounds and Blocks are two of a center's most vital statistical categories. The only question here is how strongly you believe in Per 48 Minute stats. In the rankings I gave, there were minimums to the qualifications, and Haywood generally one of the higher players in total stats in those rankings. (For example, in the Off. Rebounds Per 48, Haywood was 5th but had more than the leader, Danny Fortson)

Also, to make it crystal clear which is better, I highlighted all of Blount's advantages green, and Haywood's blue.

The only obvious downgrade from Blount to Haywood is points, but seeing that this thread isnt Blount vs. Haywood, I have been digressing this entire post. Just answering a question though... I mean, it's pretty hard to argue that Haywood wouldnt be an upgrade now...

TLB, whatever you have against Marcus Banks is thankfully being refuted by Marcus himself more and more every game.