http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/56664.htm

"After being shut out for the first eight years of his career, Derek Jeter has won his second straight Gold Glove, The Post has learned.

According to multiple industry sources, the announcement that Jeter is the AL Gold Glove winner will be made today."

What a load of BS...

Pretty ****in' lame, but that's how the GG works. Once you win your first, it's like defeating the champ in boxing- you gotta TAKE it from him. Of course, you'd have thought Cabrera, Peralta and especially Uribe all did exactly that.

Kind of ridiculous Jeter will always be known as a "GG winning SS."

My God.

I didn't expect the voters to truly drop this low.

Our Lord and Captain won it again?? Good grief.

And I'm sure A-Rod won it as a third baseman.

What the hell did Cabrera have to do to win it? But as JTB said, it's his award, and it will be hard to take it away from him.

I watch a lot of Yankee games, but I can't see how Jeter can be put in the same defensive class with the likes of Uribe and Cabrera. I'm pissed.

The Gold Gloves are a popularity contest and total BS.

Orlando Cabrera had the best season of any SS in the AL in the field and clearly deserved it.

Sorry OC.

I thought it was a dead heat between Peralta and Uribe, and Defensive Win Shares confirm it- I know JHBill has access to FRAA numbers, I'd love to hear who was the best SS in the AL by that metric.

I've heard before that the voters don't look heavily at fielding statistics except errors. But if this is true, why the hell did Jeter win, with a fielding percentage below the league average and when Orlando Cabrera had a better fielding percentage and ZR? The GG has become pointless.

edit: and according to JHB, O-Cab wasn't even the best in the AL.

Keep in mind, we all know he is a liability in the field. Some people in the Yanks' FO must know he is a sub-par defensive shortstop as well. But the more the George Kings of the world hype him, the tougher it will be for the Yanks to improve. And the Red Sox will be better off for it.

Still ... it's frustrating to see ignorance perpetuated.

He doesn't deserve it.

[Devil's aAvocate]He played in 16 more games than Cabrera, had 454 assists to Cabrera's 347. Cabrera had the worst RF of any qualifying SS in the AL, Lugo had great range but made more errors.[/Devil's Advocate]

[JHB Hat On]Jeter's FRAR is 31, FRAA is 7, Cabrera's FRAR is 29, FRAA is 6, Lugo's FRAR is 29, FRAA is 5[/JHB Hat Off]

Meaningless award though.

EDIT for JTB

Uribe's FRAR was 35 and his FRAA was 11 and Peralta was FRAR 40 and FRAA 18. They both deserved it more.

Casp, how about Uribe and Peralta? Where do you get the FRAA/R numbers?

Hardball Times Gold Gloves... and Lead Gloves

These are more accurate.

Shortstop

Gold Gloves: Rafael Furcal (+32), Juan Castro (+23)

Furcal is going to be the premier free agent on the market this year, and it’s not hard to see why. Not only is he a pretty good hitter, but Furcal is slick in the field as well. He’s well worth $10+ million as long as he keeps up the good defensive play. If the Braves’ staff is much worse next season, there’s a good chance that the reason will not be the departure of Leo Mazzone (as everyone will attribute it to) but rather because Furcal is gone. The amazing thing about Castro’s rating is that he only played about 2/5 of the season.

Honorable mention: Jack Wilson (+27), Neifi Perez (+24), Jason Bartlett (+17)

Lead Gloves: Felipe Lopez (-23), Michael Young (-34)

At least both can hit. Young has been horrible at shortstop (-28 last year) and needs to be moved. Maybe he can play in the outfield with Soriano.

Dishonorable mention: Russ Adams (-34), Angel Berroa (-20), Derek Jeter (-16)

Wow. Without so much as an overblown "signature play" this year.

I'll ignore range factor and zone rating and all that fancy stuff, not just because I'm still convinced that they are imprecise measures, but because I can't imagine they are on the radar of very many (if any) of the voters.

I'll even ignore the question of who, among the many other better defensive shortstops in the AL, deserved the award. I don't know, wasn't keeping a running tally of my own Gold Glove votes through the year.

But, to use language that the old school voters would understand -- How many errors was it that Orlando Cabrera committed this year, again? Two? Two and a half? (Seven?)

I get the whole "voting on reputation" thing. But I didn't know that Jeter's reputation was that solid these days. I guess one should never underestimate the extent of Jeter worship. Congratulations, Jetes.

Never, ever.

GOLD GLOVE WINNERS

1B: Mark Teixiera
2B: Orlando Hudson
3B: Eric Chavez
SS: Derek Jeter
OF: Ichiro
OF: Torii Hunter
OF: Vernon Wells
C: JASON VARITEK(I dunno why)
P: Kenny Rogers

We all know GG voting is a sham folks, see the 1b vote in 1999. Jeter's not the best defensive SS in the AL, we know that. He has the name. As far as 'balanced players' go, Jeter is a very good player. We all know that despite the letter of the award; offense, hype, leadership, winning, and other stuff factors in. That's as much why he won it as his defense.

Yeah I agree, it is a sham. I mean Torii Hunter won a Gold Glove and he missed August and September. Also evidenced by one Jason Varitek. I mean, I love Tek adn all, but he's not hte best defensive catcher...ever seen his CS%? It's ugly, that's for sure.

At least they finally gave Hudson the award. He's been one of the elite defensive players in baseball now for about three years. Aaron Rowand got jobbed along with his teammate Uribe, too.

Apparently they counted "supposedly making pitchers better, although there's no truth or evidence in that" in the GG balloting now. Let's be serious, Varitek is the new Captain Intangibles.

Shh, nobody's supposed to know that Tek's CERA was 5.02 or 10th out of the 12 AL catchers that caught 100+ games

Now now. We can't let any hypocrisy to show forth. Of course Tek was by far the most deserving AL Catcher for the GG, just like Jeter was for SS.

More like Captain Tangible with that eyesore of a 'C' on his chest!

Jon Weisman, SI.com

Thanks for posting! Funny and solid.

I dunno, I tend to think the reason CI's defense has gotten better is because he got tired of the "Yanks have a GG SS playing the wrong position" stuff...

Ken Rosenthal writes about his top 10 Jeter moments:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5674456
It's more balanced than the usual fawning Jeter gets in mainstream media, and defensive criticisms about range are particularly acknowledged. Rosenthal's overall point seems to be that Jeter has a strong flair for coming through at key moments, which seems hard to argue with.

Just watched the flip replay over and over...
#1 - Why isn't Jeter laughed at like Manny for unnecessarily cutting off a ball that was thrown right to Posada and would have got to Posada faster and more online had Jeter not touched it. Not only is the flip not an all-time great play, it's actually an all-time stupid play.
#2 - If the glove actually hit Giambi then Giambi is out. I've heard some people say that Posada's tag was late, but it wasn't. However, it's hard to tell if the glove actually touched Giambi's leg. If Giambi is safe it's only because Posada missed the tag, not because the tag was late. Funny that the only good and most famous still phot available of the play is the one where Jeter's leg is blocking the view of exactly where the glove would have touched Giambi.

FourthBase, when I saw this ancient topic revived to bring it up to #3 in the queue (by the time I saw it), I thought some BBWA idiots might have decided Jeter deserved a GG in June...!!!

Hey, while they're at it, they might as well give ARod the MVP now, too...

Oh come on. You must be the only one I've ever heard say that. You mean everybody else missed it? Here's a quote for the on deck batter in a ESPN article. Ramon Hernandez, Oakland's on-deck hitter who is standing on the grass on the first-base side of home plate, realizes, "Hey, that ball's going to hit me!" He later said "If Jeter doesn't catch the ball, the ball hits me -- that's how far off the mark it was," Now he was on the field, with a seemingly better angle then you. Was the play overblown? Maybe. Was it a good play? Yes. A stupid play? I don't see it. At the very least I would not compare to Manny's play at all.

Hey, I like bashing Jeter as much as anybody, but give me a break. Spencer's throw was wayyy off the mark, and Posada would have had to get far away from the plate to field it. Besides, the throw was running out of gas before it got to Jeter, and would have slowed down even more by the time Posada was able to field it. It was a horseshit throw by Spencer, and Jeter bailed him out.

It was a very close play at the plate, but I have yet to see a replay that is conclusive enough to show that the ump made the wrong call. The umpire was right on top of the play, and I've yet to see any video that shows that he missed the call.

Ramon Hernandez must've been high on roids or PCP at the time. The throw was CLEARLY online, NOWHERE close to where he was standing, which is supposedly the on deck circle. Yes, Hernandez was on the field...but he might as well have been in the locker room playing with kittens.

Spencer throws it from several feet in foul territory, the ball goes 250 or so feet, it bounces off the outside of the basepath, and Jeter intercepts it somewhere in the middle of the basepath. If anything the ball was headed a little to Posada's left.

Just thank god we live in a video age, one in which The Flip is replayed over and over and over. The cameras have an infinitely better memory than Hernandez. It won't be long before you see how shockingly wrong he is, so much so it might undermine whatever faith you have in eyewitness testimony.

As for how stupid the play was, the basic (and false) assumption is that after the ball bounced it lost some steam and wouldn't have reached Posada in time to get Giambi. If anyone here knows a little physics/forensics/whatever, I'd love to get a reasonable estimate of how fast the ball was going after that bounce, and possibly the vector. I'm convinced that Jeter's little detour with the ball wasted precious time in which an unimpeded ball would have been travelling at a good clip (a ball thrown 250 feet is just going to "die"?) straight toward Posada. By the time Jeter finally releases the ball, the un-cut-off throw would have been just a few feet from Posada, going at roughly the same pace as Jeter's toss -- which is so soft (naturally, because he was sprinting perpendicularly away from home plate) that it arcs to the ground from about 20-25 feet, and Posada has to reach down to grab it and sweep across (an un-cut-off throw would have allowed Posada to face more toward third, Jeter's toss forced him to adjust abruptly and tag the runner blind).

It was a stupid play. Manny's probably a pothead, and his unnecessary cutoff was relatively meaningless. Jeter's bonehead play was at the most critical time and place. What's his excuse? It's sickening that such a stupid play is heralded by everyone as one of the smartest plays ever. If Giambi had been called safe (remember he was barely out despite the fact that he and everyone else instinctively thought he would be out by 10 feet) then The Flip would not be seen as a brilliant All-Time Highlight, but as the infamous All-Time Blunder it really is. The fact that not even most Red Sox fans doubt the excellence of that play is proof that the Yankee-worshipping media has cast a truly powerful spell, aka Jeter's Intangible Lore.

Please stop giving us a bad name.

Actually, it was a SPECTACULAR online throw by Spencer from the deepest part of RF corner, and if Jeter hadn't needlessly intercepted the ball it would have been known not as "The Flip" but as "The Greatest Play of Shane Spencer's Life".

Let me refresh everyone's memory... Try to visualize and time (tap beats on your desk or something) the trajectory of the ball as if Jeter hadn't cut it off. Note where Spencer throws it from, note where it first bounces, note where Jeter grabs it, note how long he has it while continuing to run before he finally gets it out of his glove, and imagine how far and where the ball would have travelled without him.

http://www.psslbaseball.com/video/DJFlipPlay.avi



Please STFU and come back when you have something to contribute.

I think you're right regarding the path of the ball (it looks like it would have been slightly up the third base line) but from the video it looks the throw never would have made it in time. The ball bounced once when Jeter grabbed it and was close to bouncing again. Based on how close the two bounces would have been, I think the ball would have bounced at least two more times before it reached Posada and Giambi would have been safe.

"...before he finally gets it out of his glove"

That should be "hand".



The second bounce wouldn't have been that close to the first, the close-up video angle foreshortens it. And who says that a ball that bounces twice more, on dirt, would have lost much velocity? And even if it did lose a little velocity, I still think its straightforward path would have got to Posada faster than the jagged detour it took while in Jeter's possession.

But I appreciate your thoughtfulness as a Yankee fan to not attack me for daring to question that sacred cow of a play, and to address my argument reasonably. Thank you.

I want to add that for someone I personally despise, I have a lot of respect for Derek Jeter, I think he deserves most of the tributes paid to him, and I'm one of those who thinks his headfirst dive into the stands last year was an incredible play. I just don't think The Flip belongs on his HOF resume under "smart" or "clutch".

Everyone studied it again yet? Noticed the near-perfect path of Spencer's throw? Noticed how far the ball was going between the first and second bounce? Timed it versus Jeter's little detour and lukewarm toss? Laughed at the announcer's spasmic fit: "Derek Jeter, with one of the most unbelievable plays you will ever see by a shortstop"?

I looked at the video and unless it had spin on it, Hernandez does seem to be wrong. Although, he was not on the on deck circle, he was a few feet behind the plate ready to tell Giambi to slide or not. I failed Physics, but it still seems like the throw was losing steam and Jeter made the right play.

I really couldn't be more at the opposite end of this one.

The dive into the stands was a good play, but not a great one, and most definitely an over-hyped one. If the play belongs in the Derek Jeter highlight reel, it certainly does not belong in the "Who but Derek Jeter would have made that play?" mythology.

The flip, on the other hand -

Well, I still think Giambi was safe, but in no small part, I'm sure, because I want to believe that he was safe. Truth be told, I don't think you can conclusively argue that he was safe or that he was out from the replay angles I've seen. It looked like a phantom tag to me, but only from one angle. So, really, I have no idea.

As for Jeter's role, though - one thing you're forgetting is the level of difficulty for Posada. He got a nice, clean flip from Jeter right where it was both easy to catch and led his glove to the runner.

Maybe if Jeter doesn't cut it off, the ball skips to Posada anyways. Maybe it even gets there a fraction of a second sooner. But, then you're asking Posada to play the hop, or maybe even pick the ball out of the dirt. How many times do you see a catcher whiff on the ball, or snow-cone it and have it knocked out by the runner, on such a play? Depending on the hop, Posada also moves his body, which possibly makes it easier for Giambi to avoid the tag.

There's a very good chance that Giambi is safe, without question, if Jeter doesn't step in. If the throw was on line then sure, it wasn't the miracle play that it's made out to be. But I still think there's a better than even chance that without that play, things don't work out so well for the Yankees there.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/espn25/story?page=moments/45



There, it's the writer who is really embellishing, i.e. making s*** up about the on deck circle.
Hernandez is still wrong, though.



Very wrong.

I'm not too swell with physics, either. But considering the ball was fired about 250 feet...Considering it hit dirt and would have continued to bounce on dirt...Considering that the ball travelled about 20 feet before Jeter grabbed it...And that Jeter grabbed it right around the height of his knees...Meaning that the ball still had several feet to travel in the air after its apex...Considering that the first bounce is always the bounce in which the backspin of a throw changes into frontspin...That the spin change happens just once and the ball will appear to lose velocity only after that first bounce...That once the ball hits the ground the second time -- with frontspin -- the velocity picks back up...That the second bounce wouldn't have been that much shorter than the 25 or so feet the ball would have travelled after the first bounce...That the ball would have reached Posada somewhere in the middle of the third bounce, somewhere around the third bounce's lower apex...

Considering all that, just using common sense...

I feel the ball would have got to Posada quicker without Jeter's interference.
But I'd love to have someone actually, scientifically determine all that.

Rominer may be dead on. That ball could have been a tough hop for Posada. I also quietly agree with his assessment of the stands play. The ball was a fair ball. The dive into the stands would noy have been needed if Jeter were more athletic. But he still got credit from me for giving himself up in that spot.

Rominer, you think Jeter's interception made Posada's job easier?
Are you watching the same video I am? Until Jeter cuts it off, Posada is relaxed, facing centerfield, licking his lips for the good throw coming at him. After Jeter cuts it off, Posada has to adjust and turn away from the runner, then when he finally gets the lilting toss that gets to him low enough to bring him to his knees, Posada has to make a rapid sweeping motion to even get the glove near home plate, blind to how and where Giambi is running.

How would Giambi acted differently? Well, for one, he was planning on running Posada over. He figured was a dead duck at home, and a collision was his only hope. Until Jeter stepped in and almost made Giambi safe.



That's where most of the credit I give him for that comes from, too.
It may not reflect well on his athleticism, but the muppet had heart.
Although it was actually a nice catch on the sprint.

The Flip...OK, at best it's a neutral play, let's say.
And since as a neutral play the cutoff was totally unnecessary...
It is still a relatively stupid play. Not as stupid as Manny's cutoff.
But ultimately as gratuitous and useless. And laughable.

Ok, so I checked out the video clip. First off, to me it still looks like Giambi was safe, but I digress.

Anyhow, IMO, once that ball hit the dirt, its next hop was going to be either [a] on the grass, or [b] the lip of the dirt/grass. Either would have eliminated any shot of getting Giambi at the plate. If that ball hits the grass, it dies, and probably rolls to Posada, or makes several small hops. If it hits the lip, who knows which way it bounces ....

edit: man i suck at typing, or spelling, or both

Well, I can't say definitively, because that video is about the size of a postage stamp on my computer...I could blow it up at home, but on this ancient box I'm using at work, I'm surprised that the computer didn't blow up from trying to play any sized video at all.

That said -- I think pre-flip, Posada is relaxed because he doesn't expect a play. The throw most definitely was on line, but it was dying. As far as I can tell, when Jeter picked it up, the ball was on its way down just a few feet after its initial hop on the grass in foul territory.

That thing was going to roll to Posada - if he was lucky. Can't tell for sure from just one angle, but it even looks to me entirely possible that the second hop, had Jeter not cut it off, might have been off the lip of the infield grass. If that had happened, forget it. Bad hop, the throw is no longer on line, and the play is over.

Had it not hit the lip of the grass, I still think you're looking at 3 hops, minimum, before that thing reaches the plate, given that each successive hop is going to be shorter than the one before it. At that point, there's no play.

Now, your underlying premise - what was he even doing there? - may hold. Because, if he really was a cutoff man in that scenario, he was about 5 minutes late in getting there. Had he not been sprinting across the field, and away from the plate, he could have put more juice on that flip. And, if he wasn't supposed to be a cutoff man there, obviously no one would have faulted him if it had ended up being a dribbler to the plate - but meanwhile, if Giambi is safe, and no one is home at second base, Oakland might manage an even bigger rally that inning. So there may well have been a good deal of dumb luck involved - an entirely different intangible than the ones normally associated with Jeter.

But even if he's lucky that it worked out, I still think (as far as I can tell) the alternative there would have been that he doesn't try to make a play, and the ball dribbles its way to Posada too late to get Giambi. The only way, to me, that that wasn't a great play is if it was his job to be there to cut the throw if. If that's the case, he arrived on the scene way too late and was bailed out by Giambi's bad baserunning (and possibly the umpire).

Given the number of other times that I can think of that a shortstop made that play, though, I think that was pure instinct -- and pretty good instinct at that.

I have to disagree. The first bounce hit the very edge of the dirt basepath, even throwing up a little chalk from the runner lane line, and for its second bounce the ball had a berth as wide as the entire basepath, almost the entire width of the basepath to land on. Jeter intercepted it on its way down, and he was clearly catching it over the basepath, right around the middle. Once it cleanly hits the basepath dirt on the second bounce (which it would have) then it's home free, because its third bounce would have hit the dirt apron around home plate -- reaching Posada somewhere near the apex (only about a foot high, though) of the last bounce. These aren't precise calculations or anything, just the results of watching that goddamned play over and over and over.

You could be right, but in my opinion, it looks like its hitting grass next, which means Jeter in fact did save the day. Boy that was painful to type. Now, as far as it being the greatest play ever by a SS, not even close IMO.

You know, FB, because of this discussion I am now an enlightened man.
I used to be in the 'great play by Jeter' camp, but now I am not so sure.
I remember watching it live and being pissed because the lesser Giambi didn't slide, and I always thought the throw was significanly more off line than it actually was.
I ran the clip back and forth a few times in the expanded box, and you are right. The throw was right on line.
My only hesitation is that after it bounces is whether it would reach Posada. After it hits the dirt, it just sort of farts out, and Jeter has to stab it at below knee level. Instead of two bounces, I'm thinking it would have taken more, maybe two bounces and a roll. Either way, I'm not convinced it would have reached Posada in a position where he could have made the tag in time, but it is a lot closer than I originially thought, I will grant you that.

But its really a no-win argument. You could preach this for the rest of your life and no one will listen. 'The flip' has been ingrained into the American baseball consciousness since the FOX announcers pronounced it a great play. You would have an easier time shaving the beard off Lincoln's bust on Mount Rushmore than convincing the baseball public otherwise.
What's that line from 'The Man who Shot Liberty Valence:' When the legend becomes the truth, print the legend.

Has anyone ever labeled it as such?

The throw was perfectly online, but I don't think it would have reached Posada in time if Jeter doesn't intervene. Spencer so completely overthrew both cutoff men that the throw had little oomph left when it started bouncing down the baseline.

Jeter's flip did speed up the ball arriving at home plate, which (whether Giambi was actually out or not) was the difference in the call being made.

Good play, bad running by Giambi, put the tinfoil away already.

If so many people had the misconception that the throw was wildly offline, then the notion that the throw would have petered out could well be another misconception. I've used eyeball estimates to plot the course and pace of the throw had Jeter not interfered. There must be a scientific way to determine that. If it's scientifically determined or at least plausibly explained that Jeter's flip got there faster, then I'll be the one who will STFU. Until then, if all you have is stuff like "you're making us look bad" or "put the tinfoil away", then I suggest you STFU. If instead you want to provide some reasons why you know the throw lost its "oomph", then please go ahead. Thanks.

Observation and opinion, same as you. It can't be known if Jeter's flip sped up or slowed down the ball. It can only be opined. Why are you so hell bent on changing the perception of this play? As you said, the video exists. All can view it for eternity and form their own opinions of the magnitude of the play. What more is there to be said?

Yup, whoever did that game for Fox.
(On a side note, I'd like to say I'm proud that FB has not told me to STFU in this thread.)