Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Does Joe Cronin deserve to have his number retired?
Royal Rooters > WE'RE TALKIN' BASEBALL > RED SOX - OFF THE FIELD
Cambridge
The way the criteria is laid out -- 10 years with the Red Sox, finished career here, in the Hall of Fame -- I think Joe Cronin HAS TO have had his number retired. That said, did he otherwise deserve the honor?

Cronin played here for 10 seasons, but only had more than 300 ABs in 5 of them. Overall, he hit .296 with 119 HRs in a Red Sox uniform. To my understanding, he was no longer a good defensive shortstop in his last several years.

He managed here for 13 seasons (11 as a player/manager). He won exactly one pennant. He was also, by many accounts, a racist who helped ensure that no black players ever wore a Red Sox uniform.

Opinions?
Walking Disaster
QUOTE(Cambridge @ Nov 28 2005, 06:24 PM) [snapback]434153[/snapback]

He was also, by many accounts, a racist who helped ensure that no black players ever wore a Red Sox uniform.

Opinions?


I don't like the idea of celebrating the career of a person who used his power and influence to segregate the game based on his racist beliefs. For that reason alone I don't believe his number should be retired. If anything, he hurt the franchise.
Sox Sweep Again
QUOTE(Walking Disaster @ Nov 28 2005, 07:13 PM) [snapback]434197[/snapback]

I don't like the idea of celebrating the career of a person who used his power and influence to segregate the game based on his racist beliefs. For that reason alone I don't believe his number should be retired. If anything, he hurt the franchise.

Here's an extremely well-documented piece on racism and the Red Sox... snippet:

The April 16 evening edition of the Globe carried a brief piece–credited to the Associated Press–reporting that in addition to Woodall and Duffy, Boston manager Joe Cronin also witnessed the tryout. The account noted that "During a friendly discussion after the workout Muchnick argued the American game should conform with the tradition of democracy.... His comment drew a response from the Red Sox that no Negroe [sic] had ever sought a place on the team."41 The next day a much briefer account appeared that quoted Duffy referring to the three men as "Pretty good ballplayers."42 The Herald also reported that Cronin watched the workout and "exhibited interest in the work of Robinson," and that Hugh Duffy called the players "'fine fellows' but he did not care to make a definite decision as to their ability after a single workout."43 Reports in the Post, Traveler, and American made no note of Cronin,44 although in later interviews Cronin always asserted he attended.45 The Post claimed "no statement was made as to the impression the players made,"46 whereas the American stated, "those who saw the players said they appeared to have considerable ability."47 The Traveler even maintained that the players were invited to return the next day for a second workout.48 36
Joe Cashman's story in the Record provided the most detailed account. While it included the previously cited quotation from Cronin, Cashman also wrote that Cronin saw only a portion of the tryout and that the three players did not take batting practice. Cashman concluded, "Further observation may result in the Red Sox signing one of the trio and then schooling them at one of the Sox farms–Louisville, Durham or Roanoke–will be required so that the candidates ability in competition can be noted."49 37
Initially, the African American press reacted optimistically to the tryout. The Boston Guardian's Doc Kountze contacted the Red Sox soon afterwards and Duffy told him the three players were "Good boys ... hustlers. We were glad to give them a tryout. They're the same as anybody else.... Got a soul the same as I have.... Deserve the same chance as anybody."50 38
Several weeks later, Wendell Smith confidently reported that Robinson, Williams, and Jethroe were "anxiously waiting to hear from the management of the Boston Red Sox," but noted that due to a broken leg manager Joe Cronin "may not be free to consider the applications of the three fellows until he is well again."51 Such anxious waiting would be in vain. Meanwhile, Cronin's injury notwithstanding, at least one of the white amateurs who supposedly attended the workout that same morning, Milward Quinn, signed a minor league contract.52 39
Clearly, the Red Sox chose not to sign either Williams, Jethroe, or Robinson. To be fair, they reacted in the same fashion as every other major league team at the time, even Branch Rickey's Dodgers. Signing any one of the three players to a contract in 1945 would have flouted convention and demonstrated courage not yet apparent in the front office of any major league team. And in regard to Robinson, he had, after all, played only five games of organized baseball of any kind over the preceding three years.


Of course we were the last franchise with a black player, in 1959. Was Cronin's injury a ploy to delay until the 1945 decision no longer had to be made?

Why isn't Cronin's number already retired? Because of his reputation for racism, perhaps?
Lou Duffys Cliff
Cronin places the blame for the failure to sign Robinson on then GM Eddie Collins and the "racial feelings of the time". He had no culpability according to himself.
QUOTE
I remember the tryout very well. But after it, we told them our only farm club available was in Louisville, Kentucky, and we didn't think they'd be interested in going there because of the racial feelings at the time. Besides, this was after the season had started and we didn't sign players in tryouts in those days to play in the big leagues. I was in no position to offer them a job. The general manager did the hiring and there was an unwritten rule at that time against hiring black players. I was just the manager.

It was a great mistake by us. He [Robinson] turned out to be a great player. But no feeling existed about it. We just accepted things the way they were. I recall talking to some players and they felt that they didn't want us to break up their league. We all thought because of the times, it was good to have separate leagues.

-Joe Cronin, Boston Globe 7/22/79

This also brings up an even bigger question, should Tom Yawkey have been honored with induction in the HOF after allowing open racism to flourish in the organization while he was alive.
Empyreal
Tom Yawkey is already in the HoF. There is no morals clause for induction into the baseball hall of fame, nor is there one to retire a Red Sox player's number. Since he meets the criteria, unless the Red Sox explicitly change their policy, why shouldn't Cronin have his number retired?

I personally think he should not be so honored, but it is up to those drawing up the guidelines to state that they are against prejudice and won't allow such people to be enshrined. Revising the criteria would provide the opportunity to make a statement about what the organization's philosophy is and what type of people embody it.
Walking Disaster
I think its one thing for a person to have beliefs that they keep relatively to themselves. Its something entirely different for a person to institute those beliefs into the way they conduct their business. If Cronin did whatever he could to railroad the signing of a black player then he should not be honored by the team. There are other former players who may deserve it more than him who were not blatant racists including Jim Rice.
wincheck
Bob Feller? Ty Cobb? Kenesaw Mountain Landis?!?
dag2000
QUOTE(Sox Sweep Again @ Nov 28 2005, 07:27 PM) [snapback]434201[/snapback]

Why isn't Cronin's number already retired? Because of his reputation for racism, perhaps?
It was retired. He wore number 4.
scotian1
There is no doubt that Cronin's numbers as a player with the Sox certainly don't jump out at you but he did have a lifetimetime .302 ave., was a seven time A.L. All Star and also a MVP. His managerial record of 13 seasons with the Sox with a record of 1071 wins and 916 losses for a winning percentage of .539 probably have more to do with his honour. His views on black players no doubt leave a stain on his legacy and should never be forgotten but I am one who would not want to see the number being unretired. The fact that he served two terms as President of the American League didn't hurt either.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/cronijo01.shtml

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_a.../Cronin_Joe.htm
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2009 Invision Power Services, Inc.