OK, who, off that list, would you consider to be more "overrated," given the question?

*As a caveat, Bronson is the copout answer.

Good Christ, I hate myself for defending Jeter, but here goes.
He may be lesser to A-Rod in ability, but he gets much more out of that ability than A-Rod ever could, especially when it matters. One of the reasons a lot of people hate Jeter so much is that seemingly every October for the last 10 years he has seemingly been in the middle of every critical post season play, from Jeffery Maier to Jeremy Giambi's failure to slide, to the Mr. November homerun of BK in extra innings in the 01 Series. The sonofab*tch even scored, albeit temporarily, on Slappy's biggest post-season moment.
His status as most overrated is more a reflection of the new york press and their hero worship than Jeter's ability. Yeah, he can't live up to the level of hype, but who could. He is a clutch player and you hate just as much as I do seeing him come up to bat when the game is on the line.
A-Rod, on the other hand, hits a bunch of homeruns in 12-3 blowouts in August, spends every conscious moment trying to tell everyone how great he is, and then becomes a pinstriped shrinking violet in the post season. he is the personification of being overrated.

Hmm- well, I don't watch football or other sports, so I don't know about that.

But among the Sox, judging from the reaction, at least in Boston- BRONSON FRIGGING ARROYO. I mean, he had some value, but my God...

Ortiz, fortunately for us, can't really be overrated as a hitter at this point, in large part for what he's done is big situations since being in Boston. I say that with 100% objectivity.

That's the thing- when someone is really talking up or hyping Ortiz, Manny- they take a moment to at least acknowledge their shortcomings- which is fine. But it never happens with Jeter EVER. NEVER. It reminds me of the way someone's treated just after they die- even their ****ups turn into gold nuggets. You're just not "allowed" to point to a flaw in Jeter's game. Sports broadcasters like to sort of hoard a "we get it" mentality when they talk, and Jeter is the center of that, really among all modern athletes. If you don't really lay it on thick, you don't "get it." Bill James wrote something similar about Nolan Ryan, too. You weren't allowed to sort of mention Ryan's control problems and somewhat high-ish ERAs, because otherwise you didn't "get it."

The inclusion of salary into the equation doesn't really carry any weight to me. I don't think that factors into it as much as media/ pop culture reaction.

Possibly Vinatieri, simply because it is repeatedly stated as inarguable fact and not mere opinion that he is the "Greatest clutch kicker ever." He probably is. But I've never even heard of another kicker getting a place in that discussion. So, maybe.

Manny - actually, yeah, slightly. And here's why: He's often referred to as "the best right handed hitter in the American League." Maybe. But that guy with the eyeliner and the blue lipstick bats righty, too.

Ortiz - nope. Merely dubbing him "Papi" is a bit of an understatement. A more fitting nickname might be "God."

Brady - I don't know. For every person who already calls him Joe Montana, there are two more who forget to mention him when they bring up the great QBs in the game (because, you know, Michael Vick has done oh so much in the NFL) - or throw him in as an afterthought ("...and of course Brady has won all those Superbowls.") He's probably overrated by some, underrated by others, and nobody has him pegged just right.

Seymour - look at the Pats defense with and without him last year. Not overrated.

Arroyo - I would have said yes until he was tied for the NL lead in wins, was 4th in ERA, 4th in Ks, tied for 2nd in complete games, 2nd in innings pitched, tied for 5th in WHIP, 5th in BAA, all while posting a better OPS (.722) than Jason Varitek (.720). At the moment, it's hard to say he's overrated. Now, when NL hitters figure him out, and he comes back down to earth, we can revisit the "Bronson is overrated" discussion.

Thornton - I don't know. Overrated as a Bruin, maybe, but his talent isn't overrated.

Paul Pierce - Maybe slightly overrated in Boston, but vastly underrated around the league.

Jeter - I would say great, but overrated. But then, I've never seen the man naked, whereas it seems as though Tim McCarver, Rick Sutcliffe, Buster Olney, Michael Kay (etc) all have. So perhaps I am not in a position to judge.

Jason Varitek.

Since when do we credit quarterbacks with victories? Why not centers, or middle linebackers, or place-kick-holders, or assistant tight-end coaches?

OVERRATED. The Derek Jeter of football, playing for the Patriots, who are the Yankees of football.
(ducking projectiles as he flees the room...)

Okay, he's a great player, incredibly savvy and cool under pressure, but he also has a great O-line, good receivers, and a coach who outfoxes everyone he faces. They might have something to do with Tom's success. (You know, the five levels of VISA protection and all that.)

Pitcher's victories in baseball are an unreliable statistic. If you disagree, then Spud Chandler (with his .717 career winning percentage) was the greatest pitcher of all time. QB's victories are an order of magnitude less reliable.

Here's the link to the full list.

Loretta makes the underrated list, Beckett the overrated list...







Why? Because fans know more about player's abilities than the players themselves?

And after 5, full professional seasons, what was Jeter's post-season record? I think Brady is a fair nominee.



Or because we're on a message board and this topic has been discussed for going on 3, full pages now.

How were BB teams in Cleveland? Unless of course he magically became an infinately better coach when he came to the Pats. Yes the Pats are a talented team but Brady marched them down the field in every important game besides the one loss in the playoffs. QB victories count more than pitching victories I think because the QB puts points on the board, while the pitcher keeps them off. Its almost like the pitcher is the defense in baseball.

Tom Brady Postseason resume:

NFL record for most consecutive wins in post season: 10 (broke record of Green Bay Packer Bart Starr).
NFL record 10-1 in the post-season
367 passes attempted
225 passes completed
2493 passing yards (226.6 ypg)
15 passing touchdowns
5 passes intercepted
73.7 passing attempts per interception in the post-season (lowest rate, NFL history (minimum 250 pass attempts): Bart Starr second with 71 attempts per post-season interception)
3 Pro Bowls
2 Super Bowl MVP awards
3 Super Bowl victories
Most completions in a Super Bowl (32 in Super Bowl XXXVIII)

Regular Season resume:
2,548 passes attempted
1,577 passes completed
18,035 passing yards
123 passing touchdowns
66 passes intercepted
58-20 record as a starter (.744 winning percentage)
38.6 passing attempts per interception
7-0 in overtime games

45-15 (.355 avg) if I didn't screw my math up, which is a distinct possibility. Not sure how that compares to 10-1 to be honest given the differences between the football and baseball. Suffice to say he was pretty successful.

SSW: I'm glad you tried to make me feel better even if you ended up right!:)

PS.. what number was Curt on that GQ list?

Tom Brady's stats speak for themselves. Of course, you're a Bills fan, so you only get JP Lost-man. We understand the envy

It's not a stretch to call Jeter "overrated" by any margin. Last year, his supposed banner year defensively, he had a -16 UZR. Better than his -28 from 2000-2003, still pretty atrocious. If you take his average VORP to be somewhere around 55 (I couldn't get an exact set of career numbers), that brings him down to ~40 runs above average on his best year defensively. That's an excellent number, but it's hardly league leading, and it's below a number of other shortstops (Julio Lugo for instance had a VORP of 50, and an UZR of approximately 18). Bad defense dramatically brings down Jeter's value. Nobody likes to look at defense when analyzing how good a guy is because defense is very hard to isolate as a value. However, it's still an important component in understanding a guys value, and it really shows why a guy like Jeter isn't worth anything near the accolades he gets. Hall of fame offensive talent, but bush league defensively. Overrated.

Anderson and Eckstein are both absolute jokes on the underrated list. And JD Drew is not overrated.

While I don't agree with Anderson I do agree with Eckstein. When there was the SS shuffle last offseason Eckstein was the lowest paid and least sought after SS in the triangle and put up the best year. He's a solid SS but doesn't get credit at all.

Drew is overrated because he has a big contract and never plays a full season.

Say what you will about Brady, but to say he's had a great O-line is a half-truth. Every year he's been here there have been injuries, retirements, players out of position. His O-lines have been mostly cobbled together, and any advantage he derived from them was the result of the linemen becoming a cohesive unit over time.

On a side note, Clyde, I might have an extra ticket to see Roger Waters at the Tweeter Center. Interested?

I said they're both not underrated, because they both suck.

Eckstein OBPd . 325 and .339 in 03 and 04. He has a lifetime 89 OPS+. I'll look for more about his defense.

Drew had a freak injury last year, even though he had chronic injuries prior to that. I think he plays a full season this year. A career 134 OPS+ doesn't hurt.

RE: The most overrated players #1 through #3 on that list....

I thought it was interesting that in the "Fast Facts" at the end of the list it says Among foreign-born voters, 18.2% picked Jeter as overrated....

A significant percentage of them must have put "one of their own" in Beltran and Rodriguez on their ballot, too.

Except Arod was born in New York city, so he's neither foreign, nor foreign born. He's on the list because other players are jealous of him. Nothing more, nothing less.

That, and because, with the game on the line, his nuts get pulled up into his abdomen.

A-Rod, Close and Late (2003-2005)
.276/.392/.553/.945

A-Rod, Overall (2003-2005)
.302/.398/.574/.972

Runners On
.292/.387/.542/.929

RISP, Two outs
.270/.392/.495/.887

I can't stand A-Rod, but people overstate his performance in the clutch.

Three year splits for two players.

Player A

Close and Late
.249/.352/.392/.744

RiSP
.288/.380/.405/.785

RiSP w/2 Out
.288/.396/.419/.815

Bases Loaded
.388/.444/.490/.934

Month of September
.329/.407/.502/.909

Post Season

ALDS
.358 /.422 /.545/.967

ALCS
.262 /.339 /.405/.744

2004 ALCS
.200 /.333 /.233/.566

Post Season Career
.307 /.379 /.463/.842

Player B

Close and Late
.276/.392/.553/.945

RiSP
.273/.381/.482/.863

RiSP w/2 Out
.270/.392/.495/.887

Bases Loaded
.371/.422/.657/1.079

Month of September
.290/.399/.532/.931

Post Season

ALDS
.297 /.375 /.469/,844

ALCS
.315 /.413 /.611/1.024

2004 ALCS
.258 /.378 /.516/.894

Post Season Career
.305 /.393 /.534/.927

----


I left out one player's WS stats (.302 /.375 /.434/.809) because the other hasn't been in one. Player A is (supposedly) the King of Clutchness, and the best clutch player in the game. Player B is a "choker", and a guy who never comes through when needed. Arod dwarfs Jeter across the board in the "clutch" situations. He just never got the publicity because he wasn't a Yankee Captain.

Jeter makes a catch, runs three steps and dives headfirst into the stands and cuts up his face. He's a defensive genious.

Pokey Reese makes a catch and stops just short of the stands. Its a routine play.

Jeter is overrated.

JD Drew is a very good hitter - the most games he's ever played in his career is 135 though. I see you left out Eckstein's OBP of .363 last year and .363 in 2002. So even though he was down in 03 and 04 he still had much better OBP in 02 and 05, and in 06 he's at .402. I said that he was the best SS last year out of the three that swapped teams. Eckstein got the worst contract while Renteria and Cabrera got bigger contracts and underperformed. Eckstein had a 37 FRAR and 5 FRAA last year.

I don't really value BPs fielding metrics, but with the exception of 2005 his ZR has been very good recently. However, he's still not underrated.

You people and your stats. Can't a man hate in peace?

Really, though, I know that the numbers don't show A-Rod to be as bad in the clutch as his reputation suggests. But perception is always going to bely stats when it comes to things like "clutch," and in A-Rod's case the perception is based largely not so much on performance but on how he carries himself in those situations.

And, while he may succeed with the best of them, he fails like a loser (and I don't just mean the slap). He doesn't look comfortable under pressure, and he doesn't handle failure like someone who has read, much less grasped the meaning of, that Jordan quote in Caspir's sig.

Objectively, maybe none of that matters. Per the numbers Caspir posted, I certainly would choose him over Jeter with the game on the line. But it sure doesn't make him likable, and unlikable sure isn't going to help in a "most overrated" poll.

So I can't say I feel all that guilty about overstating his failures in the clutch. Screw A-Rod. He's a phenomenal talent. One of the greatest players ever to play the game. I'm not so sure we'd be any worse off had that Manny for A-Rod deal come to fruition. But it didn't, so I'm not required to root for him. I'll gladly call him out, then, for being a phenomenally talented asswipe.

Agreed that when he fails, he fails like a true failure. He doesn't just make an out, he really screws up. An inning ending double play, a whiff when all he needs is a sac fly, slapping at a pitcher like a little sissy, etc. Arod is most definitely a great player. I think we all just relish in his failure so much that we tend to ignore his good hits. Like the one he blasted off Schilling last year.

Jeter over-rated? In other news: Water is wet. Seriously, I think we all new the new 'Mr. October' is just the luckiest player alive. The latest issue of ESPN magazine has a pretty good article on it, and his 'clutchness'. I'll post some of the numbers if anyone is interested later.

Roger Waters? Will he be appearing with Hendrix and Joplin and Jim Morrison? In insulated Plexiglass display cases chilled with dry ice? Roger Waters is my favorite dead 1960's artist. (I know, I know, he's not ACTUALLY dead, but he's been acting like it for 35 years.)

I like Tom Brady. I wish he were on my team. And if Derek Jeter were on my team, I'd probably be defending his intangibles and enjoying his fist-pumps after his customary line-drive RBI singles to right field. But I think they are both usually defended in the same way by their fans: "I don't care about anything else. The guy just WINS."

My favorite Jeter stat is that in 2002 he stole 32 bases and was only caught stealing 3 times.

Really because mine is that in 1997 he stole 23 bases and was only caught stealing 12 times.

In 1997 he was playing an aggressive, hard-nosed brand of ball, the kind of thing that shows leadership and fires up a club. In 2002 he was an intelligent baserunner who refused to yield an out to the opponent. See? There's nothing you can to to shatter the impenetrable fortress of Jeter's alleged greatness. Everything he does wrong is another sign that he's great:

"Jeter misses every ball up the middle. The Yankees' motto should be 'Past a diving Jeter.'"
"Most shortstops don't even dive. Jeter cares about winning, unlike your guy (insert name here)."

"Jeter won a Gold Glove for finally having a nearly-average season in the field."
"You don't know anything about fielding. It can't be measured. He finally got what anti-Yankee bias has been denying him for years."

There is no escape. I've been having these conversations for ten years now.

PS
SuperManny's avatar = football equivalent of a Jeter fist-pump. Just sayin'. You only love it if he's on your team.

Wouldn't that mean that Brady did it on every first down? Brady doesn't even do that move very often that I can even think of to be perfectly honest.

Funny thing is Caspir I'm not sure if that is entirely true anymore. I want to see this ballot. Lieter was talking about taking this 'vote' last night and he said no one writes in candidates. Apparently there's a list to choose from that has little order to the candidates. I'm a bit more skeptical now. For all I know Jeter and A-Rod were bubbles #1 and #2 and they were picked because most players realize it's an idiotic poll. Anyone have a scan of the ballot or information to corroberate this, I'm curious now.

The difference being, there are arguments that include stats to suggest that Tom Brady is comparable to, if not better than, the great stat machine QB of his era.

I have heard no argument using any statistics other than "rings per hand" to suggest that Jeter is the best in the game.

The Brady argument and the Jeter argument are not quite the same.

And for that matter, speaking for myself as a Patriots fan, I don't bristle at the suggestion that there might be a better QB than Brady the way the most ardent defenders of "Jeter's intangibles trump all stats" do when it's suggested that he might be overrated (Maybe I'm in the minority - I know that a sizable chunk of Patriot fandom has turned into a rather obnoxious bunch). What I bristle at is the way Brady is discounted altogether, and thrown in as an afterthought in QB discussions -- "Manning, Vick, Favre, etc, etc, etc...and then, of course, Brady just wins." He should be listed among the best, without qualification, because statistically he is among the best. That's not a problem for Jeter - even those who insist that he's overrated willingly concede that he is among the best. It's just that "among" isn't good enough for some Yankees fans.

This is turning into a puke inducing thread. You all have no idea how much I hate the Patriots. There's no team in sports that has given me headaches like they do. ****ing tuck rule!

Wow, I wonder why Leiter would defend Jeter while he was commenting on the YES network? I wonder why he would spin the results? I wonder if he also spun the results of the GQ survey?

If players felt it was an idiotic poll, why would they even turn the ballot in (since only 470 players DID turn it in, presumably the other 200+ did not)?

I don't think he was defending Jeter at all, just letting us in on how this worked in practice. Just to let you know, I think I speak for Yankee fans everywhere when I say 'We don't care!' This poll means absolutely nothing. Yeah, we can chat about it but I don't think anyone actually cares what the rest of the league thinks of either of them. Offensively and defensively Jeter and A-Rod are probably the most all around effective left side of an infield in baseball, some poll ain't gonna change that.

I have no idea why a bit over 2/3 of the players turned it in. All I was doing was providing something I heard last night to an existing debate. You could tell me that 95% of the players think Jeter is a jerk and I'd still cheer for him!

Oh, that's right...you like ALL the teams that the rest of the world hates.

Yankees, Raiders, Republicans...

What about Duke basketball? Miami Hurricanes football? L.A. Lakers?

Pretty astonding huh?

Raiders I love - I'm glad everyone hates them again. It drove me nutes in the late 80's - early 90's when they were the cool team and their 'gear' was 'in.' Obviously I'm a Yankee fan. I'm not a die hard Republican, just have more in common with them right now. I voted for Clinton and Gore at times too!

Basketball bores me senseless. It's like ping pong on a bigger board with a smaller target area. Spot both teams 100 points and play 2 minutes and I might watch. Haven't been a big hockey team fans since the Whalers moved out of town. I'm completely detached from any one team, I just enjoy watching it.

Hey it was called correctly according to the rules though - unlike what the Raiders players and fans claimed. Raiders would have lost in the superbowl anyways and then the team would just be the mini Bills of the 2000's by losing 2 superbowls There was no way that the Raiders were going to beat the rams.

My point was that stealing over 30 bases in a season while getting caught stealing less than 10% of the time is significant and remarkable. If your point is that he has statistics that are less remarkable, well, that is true of every player.

Sorry if I didn't clarify my post. I meant to say re: "one of their own" = that Alex Rodriguez is Latino like most of them, if not foreign born (his name, his wibble-wobbling early this year about playing for the DR/USA in the WBC).

No my point was that he had good and bad years stealing bases. Its good no doubt but lets not act like hes the first person to ever do it, Beltran had 3 years that were better than Jeter's best year ('01 - 31SB 1CS, '03 - 41SB 4CS, '04 42SB 3CS) and he gets called overrated like its his job.

He may not be the first person to ever do it, but he might be the first (and only) shortstop. I haven't researched it extensively, though.

Not sure why you're so hung up on this one small stat of CI's, but for your education he was the third shortstop to have a season of 30+ steals with a 90%+ success rate. Larry Bowa and Barry Larkin preceded him (as did Tony Womack in 1997, but he was a second baseman that year).

I'm hoping beyond hope that you are NOT contending that this one trivial stat line is in any way indicative of Jeter's abilities, overratedness, or anything else. You do understand it's just a matter of trivia, right??

Jeter's career SB % (78.9%) is more important anyways than his peak year.

Barry Larkin in 95' annihilates Jeter in this regard. Larkin in 95' stole 51 bases, and was caught stealing a miniscule 5 times. His all-time percentage is a 83% success rate, Jeter's is a little below 80%. I wouldn't be surprised if there were others, unfortunately caught stealing hasn't been recorded long enough for me to really dig through and find guys.

I don't think it matters that much anyway. Considering Jeter's ratio is basically on the exact brink of creating or eliminating runs, it doesn't change his overall value. The main point is still that as long as defense remains hard to quantify, Jeter will remain overrated as we won't be able to know to what degree his below average range counteracts his above average bat.

Just watched PTI and Around the Horn - both shows talked about the topic of Jeter being the most overrated and not one of the 6 agreed at all. One of them said "Jeter can never be overrated". So no the media doesn't think he's overrated at all.

No, seriously, it's Jason Varitek.

I think that Jeter's over-rated, but I've often marveled at the general media infatuation with him. Why is that?

Is it because he is generally respectful to interviewers, always willing to give a (bland, boring) quote, and is a very good (not great) ballplayer?

Whatever; he's over-rated, and I think that this poll really reflects players' views regarding pay, not stats.