I actually like Torre overall, and I avoid tit-for-tat crap 99% of the time, but this topic ate at me this morning. Well, that, and the hangover I'm nursing...

"Mike, I need you to do me a favor...

Last week Johnny Damon returned to Fenway. You and I and everyone else with any sense of realism could have guessed beforehand that Damon was going to get booed. He had, after all, turned down $10,000,000 per year from Boston to instead go and play for the Yankees. Switching sides in that manner tends to get Sox or Yankee fans a little upset. Especially when the player had vowed on 5/1/05:

"There's no way I can go play for the Yankees, but I know they are going to come after me hard. It's definitely not the most important thing to go out there for the top dollar, which the Yankees are going to offer me. It's not what I need."

So Johnny got booed at Fenway. And Joe Torre was appalled: "I was a little disappointed by the reaction. Evidently, wearing a Yankee uniform overrides winning a World Series. Without Johnny here, they might be working on 89 or 90 years."

Flash forward to last night in the Bronx. Randy Johnson had a rough outing. As you yourself wrote: "They booed him at the Stadium then. Booed him big." I kept reading your article (excellent as always) but either I'm blind or Saintly Joe Of The Angelic Torres neglected to chastise the Self-Proclaimed Best Fans In The World for booing Johnson. To twist Pope Joe's own words:

Evidently, getting beat by guys wearing Red Sox uniforms overrides wearing a Yankee uniform.

So could you do me a favor and ask Father Joe (of the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost Joes) what time the Mass is when we will hear him wash the Church Of The Pinstriped congregation's mouth out with soap? I don't want to miss it.

Thanks!
Signed,
One Of Those Disrespectful Sox Fans Who Had The Gall To Boo A Traitor"

Ok, I'm going to take a couple of aspirin and try to sleep now. Someone, please, stop playing those drums so loud.

Dude I'm not defending Torre. I've said he was wrong here before. But the punishment does not fit the crime in my mind. The guy, otherwise classy, made a mistake. Your analogy of Damon and Johnson is far from fair. One was a big part of the heart and soul of the greatest single season your team ever had and the other is getting paid 16m to..well I’ll spare you the details.

First of all, I have no problem with people booing Johnny Damon. I don't understand why Torre (or anyone else) would be upset or surprised by the response that Damon received in Fenway, however, you are comparing apples and oranges. These are two totally different situations.

They both deserve the boos.

Damon should have stuck to what he said on 5/3/05. Said the Yankees would offer top dollar, and that isn't what he needed. Said "There's no way I can go play for the Yankees."

Liar.

No matter what he accomplished in a Red Sox uniform, the second he put on pinstripes it was washed away.

If anything booing your own player is worse considering Damon no longer plays for the Red Sox. The Sox fans shouldn't be cheering the enemy.

And about the heart and soul - there were plenty of players that were the heart and soul from Tek, Schilling, Pedro, Damon, Mueller, Millar, Foulke, ect. Its not like Damon was a one man wrecking crew (just in game 7 against the Yanks).

RJ carried the Yanks pitching staff last year and hes getting booed - don't fans remember what he did for the team?

You're right. Booing your own players is ten times worse than booing the other team.

Torre should have kept silent because booing you're own is much worse and the fans did it to Johnson last night and have done it to Jeter and Rivera. It's all hypocrisy.

I realize that. That's why I said, "a big part of" the heart and soul of your team. I don't condone the booing of certain Yankees either (and I bet Torre does not as well). Nor have I subscribed to the Yankee fans being "the best in the world" or "classy". However, the comparison of Damon and RJ is a stretch....and Torre spoke out of line. He's handled more situations right then wrong.

Why would you bitch to Mike Lupica, he's one of the biggest Yankee haters around?

The chant "Johnny Sucks" or "Damon Sucks" is beyond booing and spare me the horsehit that it was "good natured".

The "Wells rationalization" that I hear from so many RS fans (you guys booed Wells so what's the big deal that we treated Damon like shit) doesn't hold water. You simply can't compare the place that each player (Wells and Damon) holds in the respective lore of each franchise. Wells was a nice piece on some great teams - Damon was the face and catylyst (no I did not say best player) of the team that regardless of what happens from now on - you will remember as your favorite team of all time.

The Idiots go down in history with the Gas House Gang, or the Go-Go Sox or the Fighting A's or the Bronx Zoo as memorable teams in the history of MLB. Damon was the leader of crew. The man provided you with what I bet is the most euphoric moment in your RS fandom (remember that ball arching toward the RF seats in The Stadium? Remember how happy you were?) yet you see fit to treat the guy like dirt despite his obvious (although undeserved) regard for the fans in Boston.

That fact that most RS fans can't for one minute drop their provincial bitterness and pay tribute to the guy says a lot more about them then it does Damon.

Yea, I wish we were as classy as Yankee fans. As they displayed last night, they're top of the fan food chain.

Pete, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but baseball is a team game. 26 guys provided us with that moment, so Damon was 1/26th of that. Then, as you probably know, we had a parade, where we cheered our asses off for him. Following that, we had an entire season where we continued to cheer him.

If Damon, as a businessman, is completely capable of setting aside the past and choosing his own future, why aren't the fans afforded the same luxury? Furthermore, Damon was awarded an extremely lucrative contract from the Red Sox when they signed him, one that he probably hadn't earned. And yet, he managed to forget all the good the Sox had done for him when his new negotiations came up. I don't blame him, but I certainly should be able to boo him.

it's funny, I'm supposed to love him forever for having worked hard while a member of my team? Wasn't he compensated, not just monetarily, but by the fans through cheers and adoration for doing those things?

I love how Caspir can boil down the 5 paragraph reply I was going to post into two sentences. Bravo.

In terms of "bitching to Lupica," the problem the original poster had wasn't with Lupica but the message. I think if that had been posted in response to Ryan or CHB, the underlying intent/anger is the same. Hate the message, not the messenger. Who cares about Lupica's hatred of the Yankees?

I'm not gonna defend all the booing that has goes on at The Stadium - but the notion that Boston fans would never boo one of their own is ludicrous. Ted Williams, Yaz, Rice, Manny have all been booed by RS fans for cripes sake.

The only occasion I ever booed at YS was when Kevin Brown left the mound during game 7 ALCS. I didn't even boo RJ when he got absolutely shelled in game 3 ALDS last year. I wish Yankee fans didn'yt boo as much but if anyone deserved it it was RJ last night.

As far as I'm concerned he pursued the NYY as much as they pursued him in the winter of 2004-05 and he knew what the deal was.

Well I wouldn't chant anyone sucks personally but thats just me. Other than that though I have no problem with the way he was treated. The Sox-Yankees is the biggest rivalry in sports and he went to go play for the main rival. Damon was cheered for 2004 for the entire year in 2005 so I'm sick and tired of saying the fans owe him another cheer. He was well compensated for his 4 years that he played here and he decided to leave for more money to play for the enemy. Damon was in Boston long enough to understand what that meant to the fans. Thats his choice to make but its also the fan's choice to boo him every time he comes back because he pulled a Fredo on us. He specifically said that he would never play for the Yankees and that he knew they would throw more money at him and that money didn't matter to him. So basically he lied and went to go play for the biggest rival in sports. Oh and Ortiz was the face of the team not Damon unless your female. Damon made his decision to go to the Yankees and I could care less how he feels about Boston fans at this point as no one in Boston will cheer for him anyways.

i've got no problem with yankee fans booing anybody......just don't pretend to be above the fray......

And the fact that the Yankee fans have booed Jeter and Mo. Every team boos players which is why its so hypocritical to get on the high horse in the first place.

Look - I just thought that after the Curse and 86 years and all that crap and Damon's role on that team both on the field and in the clubhouse and with the fans (he was not just one of 25 to the above poster) and the fact that he drove in 6 of 9 runs on the night that the Yankee beast was finally slain - that maybe it could be put aside for one at bat. The level off animosity was un-deserved.

No way Paul O'Neill or Bernie or Jeter under similar circumstances gets that kind of treatment. The level of hatred fron NYY to BRS is just not as high as vice versa - and the Wells comparison just does not wash.

that, my myopic friend, is bullshit.....that's just you thinking you're better because you root for the casino.....

The whole purpose of this letter was to call Torre out on being stunned that this happened. No one is saying Sox fans haven't booed their own, including Foulke last year which was total BS.

Torre couldn't understand it and he has seen first hand how his fans have turned on their own.

No one ever said Red Sox Fans don't boo their own players. Of coruse, we aren't telling you who you can and can't boo, either. What several folks here (myself included) take umbrage with is the idea that it's bad when Sox fans boo players, but more or less ok when Yankees fans do it. Something irritating enough when stated by NYY fans, but having it implied by the NYY manager is something else entirely.

Players get on fans bad sides, and then they get booed, it happens. But to criticize Red Sox fans for who they boo and why, and then sit there and say "well, it's OK when WE do it", is absurdity at its best.

OK, just so we are clear:

1) The "face of the team" (I still say it's Papi) who helped bring home the championship turns down a lucrative cotnract from the home team for a few extra million with the hated rival he said he would never go to. DON'T BOO
2) The clear ace of the team's pitching staff struggles with his control in poor weather conditions against a good offense, gives up 7 runs, but only 2 of them are ER. BOO AWAY

I think Torre was talking about this one specific instance. The Red Sox had not won a WS in nearly 90 years and because of that he felt that Damon deserved better on his first trip back. I don't agree with Torre, but he's entitled to his opinion.

The thing is that when you have a Yankee uniform on your not going to get cheered in Fenway. There it is, no matter who you are. Pedro will get a huge ovation as he put up some of the best seasons ever from a pitcher and did it in a Sox uniform. He was also a huge part of the championship but if he went to the Yankees he would be booed upon his return as well. Damon would have been a GOD in Boston for the rest of his life if he went to any other team.

Torre is entitled to his opinion but it has no relevence in Boston. I don't remember him saying a word when Wells came back and got booed. Also don't tell me the Wells thing is different - he was in NY just as long as Damon was in Boston where Wells had 16,18,19, and 15 wins in his 4 years. Wells was also not offered a contract by NY and wanted to return but instead went to SD then Boston. Damon went straight from Boston to NY while turning down a solid offer in the process.

Here are the quotes from Pedro about the Damon reactions:

You're kidding yourself if you think Bernie Williams wouldn't have been booed to high hell had he decided to take the contract the Sox offered years ago.

Well we can never know for certain how O'Neill or Bernie or Jetes would be treated under the same circumstances (Steinbrenner for good or ill would never let it happen). But the treatment of Wells (which was mild, he was hardly the focus of that game as there were a thousand more compelling storylines that night) upon his "big return" to The Stadium certainly is not proof that a seminal figure in NYY history (as Damon is in RS history) would be treated as shabbily in The Stadium as Johnny was in Boston.

Wells (as much as he'd like to be) is simply not as imprtant figure to NYY fans as Damons is to RS fans.

I seem to recall defenders of Keith Foulke asking that very question last year.

It's silly to look at the booing of RJ last night as an isolated incident. This has been some time coming because he has had several spotty starts this year. And if anyone deserved to be booed based on an absolute stinker of a performance, it was RJ last night.

Torre can say whatever he wants or not say whatever he wants whenever he chooses or does not choose to say it. The press may see him as good ol' Uncle Joe, the revered straight-talking baseball elder statesman, and treat his postgame offerings as if he's got a direct line to Mount Olympus but I've tuned him out as being more or less full of sh*t for years now.

At least one of the advantages of sending an e-mail to lupica is you save the cost of a stamp and envelope.

"was", Damon was to RS fans. At this point Damon isn't important to RS fans, don't get me wrong as I love the fact that he doesn't have a hit against the Sox yet and will root against him for his whole Yankee career. But Damon isn't important in Boston anymore as he is with the enemy now.

What exactly is your point?

The point is Damon deserved better from Boston fans and using the "Wells rationalization" as proof that NYY fans would have behaved the same way doesn't work.

Honestly, the only time I've heard the phrase "Wells rationalization" or seen what you refer to "Wells rationalization" as is in your posts. That may have something to do with the crossroads we find ourselves at.

Oh. I don't know who Damon is. We used to have a guy named Damon on the Sox once. Same guy?

Yankee fans would crucify any of their stars if they returned to the Toilet wearing red socks. Don't kid yourself. I hear plenty of boos at your ballpark for players who are still on your team.

i see now why SiaS overpaid for damon......he really got to you guys didn't he?.......

The Red Sox didn't win the World Series in 2005. Last week was not Johnny the Champion's return to Fenway. He had a full season of Johnny the Champion in Fenway last year, and if he was booed once, it's the first I've heard of it.

Moreover, did the boos not turn to cheers when he tipped his cap to the crowd?

I don't think anyone should hate the guy -- but then, I doubt that the majority of those who were booing do hate him. And I doubt that any of those who were booing would sit here and say that he meant nothing to the Championship team, or to the playoff teams in '03 and '05. But Johnny did, very publicly and vocally, play both sides of the fence with his comments leading up to (and even after) his switching uniforms. So he brought the boos on himself much moreso than if it were only a matter of "the Yankees made the better offer."

The thing is, Johnny himself seems to have figured it out. He said afterwards that the boos were for the uniform, and to a certain extent a sign of respect. He's in denial about the part of the boos that represent anger towards him for joining the dark side. But still, he seems to know that Red Sox fans do love the Johnny Damon that played his home games in Fenway from 2002-2005. We will always love that guy. But it's not reasonable to expect that we view Johnny Pinstripes as the same guy. Five years from now, when he's a part-time left fielder for some team that's not in New York, we'll love him again. He knows that. And Joe Torre knows that. Every once in awhile, though, when it comes to Sox/Yankees, Joe Torre gets caught talking out his ass. This was one of those occasions.

It may not even be his honest opinion. Damon is the new guy and Torre has always gone out of his way to defend his players in the media. He may have wanted to just make the statement to send a positive message to Damon. He could have even momentarily weighed the hypocrisy of his statement and decided to stand up for Damon any way. It was probably more about making Damon feel like a Yankee than criticising Red Sox fans.

Really? Because your point seems to be that Red Sox fans behaved in some unsatisfactory manner, and in a way Yankees fans never would. It isn't about what Damon does or doesn't deserve, it's about you trying to show NYY fans are somehow better than Sox fans, and the fact that you need "proof" that NYY fans would react the same way shows it.

BASEBALL fans boo players who they feel disrespected them, whether its by moving to a division rival (Billy Wagner in PHI), because of comments they've made publicly (John Rocker in NY), or due to cheating (Bonds.. everywhere but SF). To think that NYY fans are somehow morally above that is ridiculously biased, and if one of theirs jumped ship (any one of them) there is no way they would be exempt.

An update on the email...

I just woke up a while ago, and yes my head is still pounding, and my stomach feels like that scene from "A Perfect Storm" . I checked my email and got this message back:

<mike@lupica.com>:
{IP} does not like recipient.
Remote host said: 550 not local host lupica.com, not a gateway
Giving up on {IP}.

Soooo, I emailed the nydailynews webmaster, and quickly got this reply:

"u have the right (and only) email address, but mike uses a private account and the inbox has limits; when the limit is passed, new messages bounce back to the sender with a variety of error messages"

So he doesn't have it. I actually can't believe I sent the darn thing, but I was pretty hammered this morning when I got in. But since I obviously stirred up quite a debate, I guess I owe it to everyone to try to actually get this into his hands, for better or worse. So I'll try re-sending it a few times, or maybe leave him a voicemail message (if possible?) telling him to peek in here. (I'm sure he'll get a kick out of that!)

Let's not forget as well that these wonderful fans have booed Rivera and Jeter, and booed their beloved HGH boy until he started to hit again, and now he is cheered in the Stadium-think they would treat Bonds that way if he came in for a visit?

Torre should have kept his mouth shut.

As long as you're writing Lupica can you mention that his writings are in a bigger slump than Matsui was!

Like I said, at least you didn't waste the cost of the stamp and an envelope

Oh, I only wish that were true!

In my worst dreams, I still see Johnny Damon blasting those long bombs into the right field seats.

Can we just turn this into a gripe about Lupica thread because he really bugs me. Now he's back on the Yankee bandwagon after bitching about them for 4 years. Consider a quote in pinheads latest article talking about Cabrera:



Wait, you mean I imagined Tony Fernandez getting hurt in 1995 when Jeter got called up? I also apparently dreamed up his season ending injury in 1996 in spring training which cememted the job for Jeter.....

Come on Mike, at least put some effort into these 'rah-rah' articles - which ARE admittedly better than your usual 'bash A-Rod and the Yanks' tripe!

You should really either stop reading Mike Lupica, Jamie, or maybe you should read that second paragraph a little more carefully.

"Pinhead" said this:


As you said, Jeter replaced Tony Fernandez, one-for-one (player, singular). And there's usually only one SS on a team at any one time...

IMO some reasons Cabrera has "stuck" is because there's been two NYY starting OFs and one bench OF DL'd and one more hurting but not DL'd. Also, he's a switchhitter. He's listed as a RF'er but was called up when Matsui was DL'd (thus, perhaps intended to mark time until Sheffield came back). Cabrera might have found himself mostly on the NYY bench doing spot starts for one or the other of the NYY outfielders, not manning one position ever since Matsui was DL'd. As it is, 5 OTHER OFers have filled the bench position behind Cabrera since the wave of injuries started back in early May.

So Lupica has it right, Jeter didn't get his chance the way Cabrera has.

There's a lot of parralells between Jeter and Cabrera regarding how they debuted. Both saw brief action in one year and took a starting job the next because of an injury.

In 1995 the Yanks used half a dozen shortstops including Jeter at various points. Jeter was no sure thing. He did beat out numerous candidates, and a big injury gave him a starting job in his first full season. Just as Cabrera has beaten out a few himself after a big injury (Matsui - remember when they called Cabrera up Shef was assumed to only be gone for a short term) - Long, Thompson, Reese and now presumably Crosby. Point being both were given a chance because of a single injury, beat out some other possibilities, and took the job.

Once Tony went down in 1996 the Yanks explored trading Mariano Rivera for Felix Fermin to replace Fernandez but Buck nixed it believing Mo would blossum that year. So apparently Jeter wasn't as high in the pecking order as Lupica would lead you to believe.

Admittedly it's a guess since Crosby also went down but had Shef not gone down Melky would have split time with Crosby in left and been given a chance to make himself an integral part. Only diference I can see is that Jeter was given a chance to loose the job whereas Cabrera was given a chance to take it in Matsui's absense.

Not to mention they're entirely different positions I just don't see what his point was. Anyhow, I'll admit it's partly my anti-Lupica bias but he's making one helluva leap thinking Cabrera has faced any more or less competition or gotten more breaks than Jeter. I just don't see it that way. Both got a chance because of one key injury and played well enough filling in to earn a starting job.

Good lord do I hate Lupica. The man is a hack and I don't even know why I bother reading his tripe anymore. Problem is I just read everything I can find about the Yanks and I often don't check the authors before I start. He's a Yankee beat writer and all he does is berate them and try and sow discord in the clubhouse. Case in point - today is a good day to be a Yankee fan - there's so many things a writer could put on paper to satisfy us. His cover story today - Jeter and A-Rod don't get along. Come on Mike - couldn't this have waited until after the Boston series? I wish he'd get canned by the News, he's pretty much a disgrace to writers and a bellowing annoyance to Yankee fans. As much as Kay and Sterling get on my nerves they can't even hold a candle to Lupica when it comes to annoying me perpetually!

Every time I read a comment like this here or over at nyyfans.com I hotfoot it over to Mike Lupica's column to find out just how scathing his comments are, and more than half the time -- from MY POV of course -- I end up thinking how non-fanboy/evenhanded-in-criticism/objective his commentary is.

Of course, I'm not a New Yorker, and I'm not a Yankee fan...

----------

P.S. Jamie, I wish you'd put a link to the Lupica column in your post...made it easier for me...

The link is in today's News Links thread...

Red Sox News Links, Sunday, August 20, 2006

As long as people read Lupica's stuff, then he's doing his job.

Sure, what he writes is crap, but that's irrelevant.

Good thing the Sox don't have those kind of beat writers.

Colonel Dave Egan has nothing on Lupica.

Probably the most brutal example of a biased reporter I can think of. He singlehandedly ran a hate campaign of Ted Williams that was utterly devoid of class and completely started the image of cranky/caustic Ted Williams. I didn't live through it but reading back some of his articles I am stunned at how brutal he was to Ted! You guys probably don't believe it but I love reading about Ted Williams, he fascinates me - on that note if anyone has good book reccomendations send them my way!

I think there's only 2 other people who have had abuse of that magnitude heaped on them by their beat writers - Maris and A-Rod. It's really inexcusable and some of it borders of stalkerish IMO. I saw a quote recently that made me laugh - can't remember who said it but it was something like 'If Williams had tipped his hat to the fans once in his career he could have retired and been a long term Boston mayor'