While we are busy beating up on the weak performances by the Olde Town Team these days, How 'Bout That Boy Wonder GM?

Looking back, not too many successes since he set a world record in trying to get rid of as many members of the '04 Championship team as fast as humanly possible.

Wonder how this team would have looked with Pedro, Lowe, Cabrera, Arroyo, et al in tow for '05 & '06 instead of those efficient great dollar values like Renteria, Gonzo, Wells, Clement, Tavarez and Company?

I like Crisp, but paying Renteria to play for Atlanta so we don't have to pay Damon is a nice touch.

At least we didn't waste any extra money on Pedro while waiting for his arm to blow out. That's working out well.

Oh, Lowell... oh, never mind, he didn't want Lowell.

Too bad he was unable to move Manny so we would have absolutely no offense to go with the values on the pitching staff.

Anyone with a gorilla suit available?

I disagree on many levels.

Theo and company had a great draft today. get off his back

The rats are jumping off of the ship because the Sox are losing to the Yankees. This happens every year. The funny thing is they'll be jumping back on the next time the Sox beat the Yankees at home.

Red Sox fans. You can't beat 'em for passion!

Yes, we should have paid the $52 mil to Damon who is currently battling through injuries and is at the end of his career instead of a young solid CF who is just entering his prime. I like Loretta a hell of a lot more than Bellhorn and I guess you didn't watch last year or even the 2004 play offs because Arroyo was mediocre at best and we got a future power bat out of him. What was Derek Lowe's ERA in 2004 compared to Clement's? OC is making way too much for a SS of his caliber and Pedro's all ready beginning to lose his velocity. Hey I was curious who is having a better year Bill Mueller or Mike Lowell? This bullpen is awful though, we should have kept Alan Embree instead of obtaining Julian Tavarez. Did you also forget we have guys waiting in the wings in our minor league system? Stop acting like the Red Sox could just dish out cash like the Yankees can.

Theo has done a pretty damn good job to get this team to the playoffs 3 consecutive years in a row along with a WS title and a near WS appearance in 2003. You can't say that about many GM's in baseball today.

Or a GM who posses an elite farm system.

Somebody is cranky!

Let's look at young players - Delcarmen (not sure if Delcarmen was an Epstein pick), Papelbon, Youkilis, Hansen and Lester on the way. Pauley looks like he could be Arroyo-esque. We'll see about Pedroia. You like Crisp, leave it at that (regardless as to how he got here). Same goes for Lowell. Loretta isn't a slouch for a 2b. Ortiz and Timlin have worked out pretty well for us. So has that guy, what's his name . . . Schilling, that's it! WMP was doing pretty freaking well. Foulke gave us a great year when we needed it. Jury is out on Beckett. Seanez has looked better his last few games. Van Buren gave us some good innings.

But you're right, this guy has done nothing for us. Name me 3 better GMs who have had his team in the playoffs the last three years? Thanks.

Damn I hate being mentioned as one of the favorites every year! You suck, Theo!

Except maybe Cashman. (Sorry, couldn't resist...)

Theo's done a fine job. Letting Pedro go is the only thing I would qualify as a mistake. And by doing that, Theo now has us lined up to be a powerhouse for many years to come. No complaints from me.

Even with the two losses, the Red Sox are on pace for 95 wins. Yeah, Theo sucks.

Cashman, the GM for Antlanta, and the GM for the Twins. But thoughs two other teams didn't have to deal with the same level of competition the Sox and Yankees had to the last few years.

How about we change this into a Jason McLeod appreciation thread? He's the shit!

I second that after the draft he had today along with others in the Sox FO.

If I pointed out some of these issues and pronounced the Sox in big trouble after 2 losses in June you'd all laugh at me - and rightly so.

Theo's done a pretty good job IMO. How many teams can boast 3 playoff appearances, 2 trips to the Championship Series, and a World Championship in the last 3 years? None, not the Yanks, nor any other team - just your Red Sox

Yanks are playing good ball lately and both teams have some injuries. Even so, the division is damn close. Two key points though... it's not even the All Star break and you're only a game and a half back. It isn't like the playoffs can be ruled out by any level headed person. Relax, there's 20+ teams that would love to have these problems. No need to get all bent out of shape yet, you all could be Royals fans or something!

The premise of this thead is solid as the GM should be held accountable. Unfortunately you stated some awful reasons.

I have no problem sending Renteria to Atlanta with a bag of cash for a top prospect. I would have liked to keep Marte but we needed a CF. The Beckett and Lowell trade is okay in my minds and has some good upside if Beckett can get straightend out. I don't know how you can rip on him for getting Lowell and then say he didn't want him. He obviously was willing to take him on and his salary and make him the starting 3B. I doubt they planned on having a $9M a year bench player.

The Manny trade was for AROD, yes the reigning MVP. I know everyone hates him but he still puts up MVP numbers every year and I'm sure Fenway would be good for his swing. So we would have the reigning MVP and the runner up in the MVP race in Ortiz if that had happened.

Delcarmen, Youks,, and Lester were not Epstein draft picks. I don't think Papelbon was either, but I may be mistaken.. Neither was Pauley, obviously.

Oh yea, this thread sucks, and should be pooped on by dogs who are fed chile every day for a week before being given oral laxatives.

I'm with everyone else. Not ready to crucify Theo. I hate losing to them as much as anyone but it's a long season and if we win 2 all is right with the world. I guess if we lose the next 2 we should just pass out the cyber kool-aid.

Papelbon was (4th round of 2003)

Papelbon was a theo pick in 2003 in the 4th round.

Pretty sure Papelbon was cuz I saw something about it on NESN but I have stupid moments, anyone know for sure?

Edit: hate having dial up at home and not posting fast enough

Look, Theo is engaged now but if you really must hold on....remember that 50+% of marriages in the US end in divorce.

Now say hello to your future: Sir Papelbon, Dr. Lester & Hansen Esq. (to early to mention Pauley after just 1 game vs. the Yanks....right). Now name the era when the Sox had such a large number of pitching prospects coming up through the system.

Thank you Theo for helping make my decade!

edit; re: the arguments I just read regarding prospects in the system that weren't drafted by Theo & Co. - that's bull dong! If they're in the system now & weren't drafted it's because they were either acquired via trade, FA, unrestricted or rule 5 AND just as importantly, STILL here because they were held on to vs. pushing the panic button when they loose two to a division rival & sent packing for middle aged broken down knee guys years beyond their prime (for further elaboration, please google: 'Lou Gorman').

Excellent point, and last year was an example. Despite the clamoring of "Red Sox Nation," Theo resisted trading prospects because he rightly judged that there wasn't a difference maker to be had.

Cabrera, Pedro, Lowe, Mueller, Damon, Millar... too expensive, and getting old. I don't regret seeing any of them let go, though Cabrera and Lowe were personal favorites of mine. What would Boston's payroll look like if they'd signed those guys?

The Sox are set for years to come, and I wouldn't write off this season, either. If Beckett and Clement had pitched to expectations, the Sox would be solidly in 1st place right now. There is plenty of time for Beckett and Clement to turn it around, and for Theo to make any necessary tweaks to this year's roster. Boston has a good shot at a championship this year.

Yeah, he did a horrible job getting Schilling and Ortiz and winning a World Series. And Epstein isn't the guy who got Cabrera in the first place, is he?

And Theo should give his salary back for making the farm system so much better. John Henry got robbed.

Brian Cashman is better - a $200m+ payroll and no World Series rings - those Carl Pavano, Kevin Brown and Jaret Wright signings just put them over the top.

Theo should have traded Youklis and kept Millar at first base.

I'm sure I could do better than Theo.

I mean, it's June and the Sox are 33-23. There are only 106 games left. Let's panic right now. The season's over.

Can't the guy even be questioned?

Theo has made some bad moves. Overall he's done a good job, but since when is it not OK to discuss his performance.

People have concerns that this pitching staff has been left way to thin and the Red Sox have had a couple of big busts (Renteria, Clement) and are questioning the moves.

I have no problem with that.

Sure, we can criticize. But we should criticize him for clear mistakes he has made, not for moves that didn't work out for reasons beyond his control. Should he have known that Renteria would fail in Boston? Larussa said he'd struggle, but most people thought at the time that that was just sour grapes. And I give the GM credit for recognizing that the situation was bad and getting the most out of dumping him. Should Theo have known that Clement wouldn't cut it? Don't think so on that one, and the fat lady certainly hasn't already sung on Mattie C's chances in Boston. Getting the EZ boys may not have been a great move so far, but there's still hope there, too. Letting OCab and DLowe go hurt me as a fan, but I can understand why he did it. Should Theo have known that Saturn would pitch like CY this year, and that WMP would break his wrist? No and no.

As I said before, only letting Pedro go strikes me as a mistake he should have known not to make before he made it. Everything else that hasn't panned out (and a lot of his moves have) can be chalked up to bad luck or personal reactions Theo cannot be blamed for not anticipating.

Nope, Theo's not perfect. But I don't see anyone out there who is.

Theo has done a lot more right than wrong. He has done two major things: won a WS and turned our farm system from a lower rung mess into a potential juggernaut. You can argue that our two best players this year have been Papelbon and Youkilis, straight from the farm. Obviously Lester and Hansen are next. Another superb draft yesterday. Bard will be another piece in a future rotation of Beckett-Lester-Hansen-Bard.

It is near impossible to not make mistakes with the heavy player movement that is part of today's game. In his tenure, Theo's notable gaffes are:

*Signing Ramiro Mendoza
*2/10 extension to BK Kim
*Sauerbeck/Suppan deadline deal with PIT
*Renteria and Clement signings of winter 2004

With all the good we have experienced the last 4 years, those don't seem so bad. The Pedro issue is up for debate and there will never be a right answer. They made the right decision analytically to not go 4 years; however, you could say one way you exploit your financial advantage is by being able to pay a guy 4 years when you know you might only get three premium years out of him. He also was starting to have trouble with every team in the AL East, even Baltimore and Toronto, and the familiarity of playing teams 19 times a year was catching up with him. And he was of course having Herculean struggles with the Yankees at the time. Tough, tough call.

I don't think any GM is going to have a perfect record. They'll always make mistakes.

This year is a weird year for the Sox. They're competing now, but it's also a transition year, with a lot of young players getting ready to step into spots. And really, Theo had nothing to do with the loss the last two days, that was an individual performance (Beckett) and the offense falling apart.

As for letting Damon walk, do you really think he'll be able to play at the level he has been for 3 more years?

Oh, yeah, those ARE doosies. They all qualify as the "What the hell were you thinking? You should have known better before you started!" kind of gaffes.

I'd hate to see someone come up with a list of my screw-ups over the last three years...

I even said earlier that this is a good idea for a thread but the reasons given by the original poster were awful. I haven't like a lot of moves that Theo has made like letting Pedro go, trading Marte for Crisp, or trading away Hanley. That said he's done more right than good and restocked the farm system.

You can't blame him for going after Beckett and picking up Lowell has been huge this year. And like others have said, 1 world series championship, 2 AL championship games, and 3 playoff apperiences the last 3 years. How many other teams can say that?

Ahem wouldnt Rudy Seanez and Julian Tavarez also apply in this situation?

But they are still here because we have a GM who puts a premium on the farm. And we didn't draft Pauley, but we sure as hell acquired him. Paps was a 2003 draft pick.

I agree with the latter point.

Jury's still out. Good possibility, but they aren't (yet) in the same category as the gaffes listed earlier.

I like the idea of this thread and I pray for Theo as he has the hardest job in sports. Compete in the same division as the Yankees with 60% of their payroll and expect to win. That part is what seperates him from the other teams in our division. How has he done? Well they have finished 2nd the last 3 years and you cannot get any closer than last year. 1 year we went to a game 7 only to lose to them and the other year we beat them in a game 7 before winning the WS which the yankees have failed to do the past 3 years. As far as bang for your buck I would say bottom line he has delivered on his job description. Now how has he gotten there? I wanted to try and break down his areas like any other work evaluation that I do here to my employees.

1.) Bottom line: 1 WS win, 3 2nd place finishes. = A-

2.) Trades: As discussed in many previous threads some have worked out, some have not but overall this team is stronger than 3 years ago. = B+

3.) Free agent signings = Hard to top Ortiz, the bullpen has been his weakest area IMHO. I got to give him credit though for not sticking to mistakes as some GM's do stubbornly. overall = B-

4.) Farm System: Has done a great job of rebuilding one of the worse systems in all of baseball. Murphy maybe his worst top pick but compared to many previous drafts those first rounders usually were out of baseball in a couple of years. This grade could go up if he manages to sign many of our top 20 picks in this years draft. = A

5.) Staff: Theo came in as the youngest GM and did not ruffle the old timers as he worked great with Port and Lajoie. Bringing in young talent and brains he has already lost one of his staff to be a GM elsewhere. I like how he just does not retread the same old names, I predict this front office will be a breeding ground for future GM's. = A

6.) Media/Public: Theo has the greatest following of any GM in baseball, Females from 16 to 60 want to have his babies or be his mother. He is young, bright, good looking and does charity work. What is not to love about this guy? When he did not resign last year all of Red Sox nation was on a suicide watch, can any GM claim that kind of following? I bet most fans do not even know who their GM is. = A+

Overall: While not perfect he is as close as we are going to get here in Boston and I only wish he could be cloned to run the Celtics and Bruins. = A-

I've heard he can walk on water…..

I think the 2004 offseason was pretty bad, but that happens a lot to teams after they win a championship, in a lot of sports, but especially baseball. They have a lot less time, everyone gets caught up in things, and, unlike some teams who try too hard to keep the team together, maybe they bent over backwards to avoid doing that. But it's way too soon to pass judgement on this past offseason. A lot of moves were made for long term benefit, and to bridge some gaps between now and the future. When Larry Lucchino is willing to publically call this a "transition year", I think you have to be willing to give them some benefit of the doubt about what they're trying to accomplish. Have we really gotten this spoiled this quickly?

Does Foxborough "count" as Boston? There's this team down there, that, if Theo gets an A-, their management gets an A+. JMO.

Agreed, but they've had a longer time to have a crack at it too. Remember the Pats didn't even make the playoffs the year after they won their first championship. Give Theo and Co a couple more years and I bet they pull off another WS win.

That is why I left out the Pats since it looks like they might have this figured out......lol

What a load of crap. Theo gets no credit for simply not trading John Lester, Youks, or the rest of the guys he had absolutely nothing to do with aquiring. That's absurd.

I'd only disagree a tiny bit- he gets credit commensurate with that type of action as a GM- but it's not a ton. I'm probably just over-parsing your words, though. Either way, I'm glad that Theo's fostering an atmosphere where importance is placed on developing younger players, in contrast to his predecessors. I think it's 100% too early to judge his draft history, too.

My perspective on this- Epstein was dealt a reputation that was borderline retarded almost immediately. The "In Theo I Trust!" stuff was crap because the nature of baseball deals mean that, oftentimes, great baseball deals go bad for reasons outside the GM's control. B Kim and Mendoza are examples of this. Sometimes, GREAT GMs make stupid moves. Not signing Pedro and signing Renteria are great examples of this. (And just for the record, the first post in this thread is complete horseshit where this issue is concerned.) Sometimes, a GM gets a horseshoe rammed up his ass, and lucks out- David Ortiz being an obvious example.

But, I genuinely think that with the information we have available so far, Theo Epstein's one of the 5 best GMs in baseball. IT IS LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO MAKE MISTAKES AS A GM. It's the nature of the job. But he's ALWAYS got a strong, developed plan and has built up some of the glaring weaknesses for the organization. People also need to realize that with such a small time sample to look at, certain seeming weaknesses (like his bullpens) are often flukey in nature.

And no, neither Seanez or Tavarez were gaffes at all. Please.

I just want to say, I think Theo is doing a good job. I am glad he's focussed more on the farm than previous Gms/owners were. I just think giving him credit for not trading our top pitching prospect that he didn't even draft is a wee bit over the top.

I agree on that silly "In Theo I Trust" matra too. It's a silly thing to say. But I agree with the rest. He is one of the five best in the game, although not the best, IMO.

Others in this thread have mentioned the turnover in players that occurred after the 2004 World Series. One thing we tend to forget is that everyone KNEW there would be turnover! Starting in 2001 or 2002, there was a lot of focus on the "window" we had to win with players like Nomar, Pedro, Tek, Lowe and Nixon. During the 2003-2004 off-season, we had two other players (Williamson and Ortiz) who could have walked at the end of the 2004 season. Theo locked up Nixon and Ortiz early in the season, but it was improbable that ALL of Nomar, Pedro, Tek and Lowe would be wearing red socks in 2004. Theo knew there would be turnover, but managed to put a team together the next year that made it back to the playoffs.

Remember, he (or rather the front office), knew we needed a top of the rotation starter, and they were able to aquire the best one available. How would we feel right now if we had signed A.J. Burnett?

Really, the only guys that have left from 2004 that DEFINITELY should have been retained are Pedro Martinez and Pedro Martinez. You can make a strong case for Johnny Damon and Jason Varitek. So, one out of two there.

The rest really weren't huge losses/ poor moves. Anyone that misses Derek Lowe should take a long look at the park he's in, the league he's in, and his numbers for 2+ seasons before departing.

People often forget that the time to judge the wisdom of a move is when it happens. All manner of random shit can alter the success/ failure of a given transaction, but you judge the GM on the move he made when he made it, with the info available. When you do that, Theo nearly always looks exceptionally smart. Not every single time, but almost every time.

Even in hindsight I still do not like the idea of keeping Pedro for the contract he got from the Mets. Now if the money saved was spent to get Clement then yeah that stinks but I think the mets way overpaid him. An above thread said to look at where lowe is pitching well that also holds true for pedro, Does anyone here think he would have the same numbers pitching back in the AL Beast?
(plus we got 2 compensation picks for him bucholz and egan)

Pedro is my favorite red sox pitcher but for that contract I do not blame theo one bit. The same for Damon, we got his best 4 years at half the price the yankees will pay him.

I rate the Red Sox front office above average, even though they have more money to spend than most every team outside of NY, thanks to NESN and those generous season ticket holders.

I think they handled the Damon situation brilliantly, if what I suspect is true--they came out ahead with Crisp, though they didn't bargain for him missing 40+ games. That took some wind out of their sails.

Where they seem to have failed again is fixing up the bullpen--you'd think they'd know by now retreads aren't the answer. They may be waiting too long on their young players--which Hanley Ramirez's success may indicate. And the Arroyo deal was clearly a mistake--unless Pena turns out to be a Manny level of hitter. They overestimated their pitching, which is old and injury prone.

However smart the front office is, my impression is the coaching on the field is a step down. Francona is good with the players, but he's still learning what to do on the field and doesn't seem blessed with a whole lot of smarts. That was true in Philly as well with a worse team. His strange answers to the media about why he does certain things could get him into hot water with them should the team go south in the won-loss column. The rest of the coaching? Nipper has to be suspect because of their poor pitching, and Beckett's failures. The others are hard to judge, though 3B coaching doesn't seem much of a problem anymore. At least they fixed that.

American League Bullpen ERA

[codebox]Team Aggregate Stats: 2006
RK TEAM G IP W L WHIP K/BB K/9 BAA OPS ERA
1 Minn. 56 164.2 6 3 1.42 2.85 8.09 .281 .733 3.39
2 Detroit 57 162.0 7 5 1.25 1.66 6.44 .222 .680 3.50
3 Boston 55 160.1 8 3 1.30 2.25 6.96 .253 .740 3.70
4 NYY 55 174.1 7 10 1.41 1.60 6.61 .248 .702 3.82
5 Oakland 56 158.0 7 8 1.45 1.83 6.66 .271 .763 3.87
6 Texas 55 180.1 9 8 1.34 2.07 7.84 .243 .678 4.19
7 LAA 57 167.2 6 7 1.39 2.09 7.51 .256 .750 4.40
8 Seattle 58 163.2 6 6 1.36 1.99 8.74 .234 .716 4.51
9 Toronto 55 184.2 9 2 1.36 2.09 8.14 .245 .732 4.58
10 Balt. 58 197.1 8 9 1.56 1.17 5.70 .272 .809 4.65
11 Chi. 55 134.1 6 8 1.47 1.75 6.90 .264 .778 4.69
12 Cleve. 54 164.2 6 8 1.43 1.73 7.27 .254 .772 4.97
13 Tampa 58 180.2 9 11 1.75 1.21 5.23 .318 .888 5.58
14 KC 56 204.1 8 12 1.60 1.72 6.96 .287 .828 5.95[/codebox]

If we don't trust in Theo, then it's time to find a new GM. Bottom line, the GM has the keys, and either you trust him or you don't. You say trusting him is silly, but then you say he's one of the 5 best in the game. Would you be satisfied only with the best GM in the game? Or would you not trust him either?

There was a time that, when a move was made that appeared at least controversial or maybe questionable, a gaggle of people bypassed any attempt at analysis and just assumed he was right, because he was Theo. They'd say, and I quote, "Oh well... in Theo I trust!"

That, obviously, makes no sense. But, he's still one of the best in his profession. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive, and its what I and, I'd assume, Caspir meant.

What are you talking about. This "In Theo We Trust" crap comes out after every move he makes. It doesn't matter who the player is, what he's accomplished, or why we got him. Theo gets some scrub AAAA player, "Well Theo is a great GM, so obviously he knows something we don't. In Theo I trust!" Theo cuts someone, "Well it was obvious Theo knew he was cooked. In Theo we trust!" It's not about thinking he is incapable of making moves that benefit the club. It's about not jerking the guy off for everything he does. Theo's made a ton of terrible moves, and a ton of good ones. Why can't the masses just accept that?