I thought I'd start this, because quite frankly I think he's been a disappointment so far. Last year, he showed no power with the Padres, with a .348 SLG and a .068 ISO. And you can't blame it on PETCO, since he actually hit better there (.305/.382/.385 vs. .258/.341/.313.) However, I was willing to give him a pass because of the thumb injury that sidelined him for quite some time. So when he came to Boston, I figured he'd rebound and put up something in the .300/.375/.430 range.

Unfortunately, that hasn't happened, as he's currently hitting .297/.341/.372 His walk rate has fallen off badly, and he's hitting for barely more power than he did last year, which is still none.

Let's look at his walk rate (BB/PA) the last few years, compared to 2006.
2003: .083
2004: .083
2005: .098
2006: .055

Now, let's look at his Isolated Power (ISO, (SLG-BA)) over the last few years:
2003: .127
2004: .160
2005: .067 (thumb injury)
2006: .074

His ISO is 6th worst of 184 qualified (at least 3.1 PAs/team games) hitters.

Not to mention he's posted a .791 ZR in the field, which is good for T-6th worst of the 23 qualified 2B. Yes, the leather could be better, at least with Loretta.

Back to his offense - how much longer can the lineup take it with him in the 2-hole? Trot has posted a .317/.420/.473 (.349/.436/.507 vs. RHP) line and should be hitting 2nd, and Loretta is getting a free pass because he's hitting for an OK average and is a career .300 hitter, which is a terrible stat in isolation, and worthless when you don't walk or hit for power.

Right now, excluding Crisp, Loretta is the 2nd worst hitter of our regulars, yet is currently 2nd on the team in PAs, and will probably get the 1st or 2nd more from here on out, depending on what happens with the leadoff spot. Why?

I brought this up before the season started. He had an absurd power surge for two seasons at the ages of 31 and 32, after moving to an extreme pitcher's park. I'm not accusing him of anything, but it was very odd, to say the least. And the problem I had with people attributing his poor 2005 to his thumb injury was this: It was not a nagging injury that bothered him all year. He was perfectly healthy until he got hurt on May 17. At that point, he was slugging .344, down from an insane .495 and .441 the previous two seasons. I'm not really surprised at all that he's not hitting for any power. Outside of those two seasons in San Diego, he's basically a .290/.350/.380 hitter, which isn't far from what we're seeing.


Because he's scrappy and he puts his bat on the ball and he plays the game right and every other stupid cliche that helps shape batting orders.

Good point HBM - I didn't even notice that. Regardless, he's been pretty bad.

He could be an OK #8 hitter if he got his walk rate back up to previous levels (which is obviously a lot easier to do than power, which I don't expect to happen), but right now he's borderline-worthless.

Yeah, he really sucks. Our whole team sucks. Our leftfielder can't hit .300 like he always does, our DH can't hit the ball the other way, our catcher can't hit a beachball, our centerfielder is injury prone and can't hit, our pitchers are horrible after Schilling and Papelbon, and our bat boy smells.

Boy, a team like this really does stink... They should be in last place by a mile.

Wait... What place are we in?

First? Wow.

[/sarcasm]

I personally would drop him to 8th and put Nixon in the 2 hole (or Crisp, if he comes around, which I think he will).

I agree. There must be a whole course at Manager School on misusing the 2 hole. Lesson # 1: put your scrappy second baseman there, even if he doesn't get on base much.

I would not call Loretta a disappointment at all, he has been fine with me. Obviously he has gone through a couple slow patches and that is when people start bringing up all these stats but I didn't really see any of this when he was hitting .400 in May. He will get his walks up I think as time goes by.

Nixon is the only thing Boston has that even slightly resembles a #5 hitter. I know that's not saying much, but until they come up with someone better, they've got to leave Nixon at #5.

As far as Loretta goes, it's hard to be real disappointed in him, but I admit that I thought he'd be capable of better SLG, at least some doubles power. It looks now like he's nothing but a singles hitter, albeit a pretty good one.

I dont think Lowell would be a bad #5 hitter

Loretta has been struggling this month, with only one walk and two doubles to augment a .237 average, all of which has led to a lusty .521 OPS. As wretched as that is, Tito does not have a ton of alternatives for the #2 spot. Trot is needed in the #5 slot, as neither Lowell nor Varitek provide much deterrent for pitching around Manny.

Best case scenario...once Crisp regains his form he slots into the five hole, with Youkilis/Nixon fronting Ortiz and Manny.

I've had this talk with friends and I'm guessing most everyone here has too about the problem with watching baseball for most of us is we played it so we think we understand it on the level of play that exists on the MLB level but it's really a different game. Same principles and I'm not saying if you didn't sign a pro contract you can't understand or appreciate the game but we have to admit our memories don't equal playing in the bigs. How many of us would give up a(pick a member on your left side of your anatomy) to have .300 avg in the majors as our lifetime average?

I can definitely live with a .297 hitter batting 2nd. Would I like him to have more walks and a higher OBP? sure, I'd love it if everyone on the team had an OBP that was .050 higher but we are in first and hopefully he'll get better in the areas you mentioned and not worse.

Right now Boston is at .582, which translates to 94 wins over 162 games.

That's not bad. What Boston needs to get better is improved pitching. The offense, though flawed, is not the problem. Loretta is a decent and productive hitter, though maybe he is best suited to bat 8th.

But he sure can tackle!

Agree Jo. I am by no means disappointed in Loretta this year. His fielding has been pretty sharp (3 errors in 284 chances = .989 FP). He turns the doubleplay well and still gets the bat on the ball. I think his Walks are down because he is really working on putting the ball in play when Youks is on (which is happening at a .440 clip). If you did want to drop him, I would wait for Crisp to get back in stride and move Crisp to leadoff with Youks in the 2 hole for optimal OBP ahead of Papi and Manny. Keep Trot at #5 and Lowell at #6.

All in all, I'm happy we have him playing everyday. Who else would be there? Please don't tell me Pedroia because we are grooming him to go back to SS.

Even with his recent struggles, Lowell is hitting .316/.360/.506. He's a good choice for the 5-hole, and having 2 OBP-heavy guys at the top of the lineuo would be optimal. I'd go:

R-Youkilis
L-Nixon
R-Ramirez
L-Ortiz
R-Lowell
S-Crisp
S-Varitek
R-Loretta
R-Gonzalez

I understand how passionate we are about the Sox, but this thread is reminding me of a Sox-Yankee game I attended in the Bronx last year. Matsui failed to get a hit in an important spot and my section turned on him immediately. I remember hearing a Sox fan behind me say, "God, these people eat their young."

Guess what - Loretta is having a very decent year. He's really solid at second and hitting close to 300. Yes, his power numbers are down, but as the descendant of the Walker/Bellhorn/Graffinino line, can you really say you'd rather have any of his predecessors?

We are soo different from Yankee fans. We at least warn our young before we eat them.

I understand that some people are enamored with Loretta's .299 batting average, but unfortunately BA by itself is a very limited way of judging a player's offensive contribution.

We know, without any doubt, that the two most important things for scoring runs are 1) not making outs and 2) getting extra-base hits.

The first is measured with OBP, of which batting average is a significant part but not everything. The second is measured with slugging percentage. Loretta's .342 OBP is just slightly above the league average of .338. And his .372 slugging percentage is significantly below the AL average of .433.

When you put those two things together in any sort of comprehensive measure -- whether it's Equivalent Average, OPS, Runs Created or VORP -- you have to conclude that Mark Loretta has been a below-average offensive player. He's 10th (out of 14) among AL second-baseman in Runs Created. He's 10th in EqA. He's 8th in OPS.

It's hard for people to swallow that a .300 hitter is below-average on offense, but if we're trying to judge his actual contribution to the Red Sox scoring runs, it's clearly true.

So sure, Loretta is not the biggest problem with the 2006 Red Sox. But if the idea is to score the most possible runs, he should probably be dropped down in the order, especially if Crisp is moved back to the lead-off spot.

Note: I'm using the adjusted for season EqA's, not adjusted for all-time-a .260 EqA is league average

Mark Loretta, 2006:
.299/.342/.372, .244 EqA

Todd Walker, 2003:
.283/.333/.428, .257 EqA

Mark Bellhorn, 2004:
.264/.373/.444, .275 EqA

Tony Graffanino, 2005 w/ Red Sox:
.319/.355/.457, .276 EqA

With the exception of Bellhorn's 2005, yes, I would take all of the previous seasons over what Loretta's putting up now.

well, Mark Loretta has to hit in the .320's to be really helpful, otherwise he isn't really all that great.
Having said this, I really like a guy who can stand his own in defense, can turn the DP, can go the other way on away pitches and is really hard to strikeout.
He started the season slumping horribly, but ever since then, he really put up excellent numbers and played very well.
I'm not saying he will be the AL batting champion, but he's going to end the season above .300, hopefully above .310 or even more. He's an excellent contact hitter, and if he ends the season around those numbers, considering how he got penalized by his first month, I'll be very satisfied, because it means that he hit around .330 from then on. And that's good.

I am warming a bit to your idea of batting Trot second, but I'm not about to jump on the Loretta bashing bandwagon. He's hitting just as well as anyone could reasonably expect him to. No, he doesn't hit a lot of homeruns, but he'll probably end up with more than thirty doubles.

Does anyone else think that Loretta is a VERY streaky hitter? It seems like when he's going bad he's going real bad and when he is going good it's very good. Just look at this guy in April he was batting around .220 then in May he soared and batted .400 and has just started to heat up again the last few days or so he is swinging the bat really well.

I completely agree that Loretta is streaky. He went from Mr. Bat Control to Mr. Whiff and now he's somewhere in between.

I wouldn't bat Trot 2nd because of his tendency to sit dead red a lot.

That tendency to sit dead red has gotten him a .434 OBP, including .453 against RHP, against which he needs to be batting 2nd.

Loretta is the Paul LoDuca of the Sox, and that ain't a good thing.

Congrats Mark on being an all-star!!!!!!

Whose the first ever Red Sox to start at second base in the all star game?

Mark Loretta. Yet we have a thread saying that he has been a disappointment so far...

Congrats Loretta on being an Allstar starter

That's an accomplishment? Honestly, who gives a damn, especially because he's somewhere near the 5th most deserving candidate at arguably the worst poistion crop in baseball?

Red Sox Bobby Doerr started four all star games at second base (quick count on Baseball Almanac).

I thought so, too, until I looked at the numbers. Honestly, there's not much difference.
Loretta: .320/.362/.405
Cano: .325/.353/.439, but he's on the DL
Roberts: .314/.378/.413, slightly better
Lopez: .280/.315/.469, .315 OBP?
Iguchi: .290/.344/.420, very close
Belliard: .291/.339/.415, very close

I didn't vote for him, but it's hard to really say he's any less deserving.

Roberts leads qualified candidates in EqA and is pretty good in ZR. I would've taken Mark DeRosa as the reserve.

Congratulations to Mark Loretta for being selected as a starter for the All Star team, and for turning his career around in Boston.

Uhh, turned his career around? He's been an All Star second baseman, and has a career average above .300, so what is he turning around? This is the Mark Loretta that has been around for a long time.

I'd say "rebounding from a tough year" in Boston, but not "turning it around"

What tough year? Do you mean his "tough year" in April, because he hit .404 in May this year. Or was it his "tough year" last year with his .280 BA, .360 OBP? Just wondering.

Did you notice he happened to SLG .348, after years of .441 (2003) and .495 (2004), both in PETCO? Or that his OBP dropped 12 points from '03 and 31 from '04? Or are you just doing another one of your cherry-picked ramblings?

Boy, you guys are sooo negative on this one...!

This is good for us any way you slice it. I'm happy for Mark, and even happier that we have someone at second whose presence I don't have to fear, whether at the plate or on the field (OK, he has his not-so-great moments at the plate, but for the most part....)

Then I think about "Robbie" Cano and feel even better.

Which four are better than Mark Loretta?

Didn't know that, I was going by what ESPN said last night which was something along the lines of "the first second basemen from Boston to start an All Star game"... maybe they meant by the fans vote? I'm not sure...

Yeah, I mean damn. The guy only has the second best OBP and the best batting average when compared to Robinson Cano, Brian Roberts, Jose Lopez, and "Tad" Iguchi. So he doesn't have power. So what. You really want a guy up there hitting doubles and homers, driving in runs, and clearing first base for David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez? I'd be happy to have a no-power, good batting average, good OBP infront of the two biggest sluggers on the team. The reasoning being that if first base is occupied, they are more apt to see better pitches. Better pitches means hits. Hits means runs. Runs means wins. Wins is the name of the game.

On the flip side, if Loretta is standing on second or the bases are clear, than Ortiz and Ramirez are going to get pitched around. Not flat out walks, but pitchers are going to nibble at the corners and keep the ball away from them because they have first base open.

1. (of "qualified" (3.1 PAs per team game) candidates)
By OPS: Cano, Lopez, Roberts, Iguchi, Belliard
By EqA: Roberts, Cano, Lopez, Belliard, Iguchi
By ZR: Polanco, Roberts, Grudzielanek, Cano, Lopez, Kennedy (tied)

Also, Mark DeRosa has put up a .332/.387/.493/.880 (.386/.429/.589/1.018 as 2B), .295 EqA, .917 ZR at 2B line, and is only 17 PAs away from being qualified. He's also hit much better away from Arlington, so you can't use that against him.

2. So you'd rather have him on 1st than 2nd?

And, while you may want to classify his .358 OBP as "good", there's a much better option there in the form of Trot Nixon.

I don't see all the fuss over Loretta. He has put together a solid season so far. Are there better 2Bmen out there? Well sure, but not on this team there aren't. You should just enjoy a 2Bman who can hit over .300 and get on base consistently.

Good guess, although Doerr was voted by the fans to start the All Star game in 1950. Wikipedia says fan voting for positions 2 through 9 starters began in 1947, and Doerr started at second in 1950, so he was voted in that one time. As in a previous post, Doerr started three other All Star games, 1946 and two earlier games. Loretta for sure is the only Red Sox all star starting second baseman except Doerr.

Just for the record, between 1935 and 1946, the manager of each All-Star squad selected the entire team. If that were the case today, Ozzie probably would have picked all of his boys except his shortstop and centerfielder.

Congrats to Mark Loretta.

Congrats to Mark Loretta.

Personally, I think this bodes well for the Red Sox in the long run. Loretta looks like an obvious "offer arb, get rejected, take the picks" guy to me, particularly with Pedroia in AAA. It's so much easier for another GM to justify giving up a 1st round pick to get "An All-Star" in the offseason, isn't it?

I heard on ESPN last night that he was the first Sox starting 2B voted by the fans... That's where he, and I, got our bad information.

ESPN sucks.

They just said on the pre-game show that Mark is the 1st red sox 2nd basemen to start the game since Felix Mantilla in 1965.

My question is who was the last sox 2nd basemen to even make the game? Marty Barrett? Remy?

Jose Offerman in 1999.

Hey, Awfulman wasn't that bad in '99. .294/.391/.435, 107 OPS+, .273 EqA.

That's right. Can't believe I forgot that. Good call, Thanman.

don't know about you guys, but presently among AL 2nd basemen, I would only take Roberts over Loretta.

I know...but he falls victim to the same selective memory that has convinced Red Sox fans that Jack Clark was a complete dud, where in reality both players had strong first years in Boston before subsequently fading.

Another terrfic addition to an infield that has been so much fun to watch.

Theo sure is good picking up everyday players-Loretta is solid.