From ESPN:
"According to the New York Daily News...the popular Yankees manager will be fired unless he decides to resign first to save face. Sources told the newspaper that former Yankees player and manager Lou Piniella will be owner George Steinbrenner's choice to replace Torre."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2617224
Full Version: Torre to be fired rumor proves false
I don't think Torre deserves all the credit this year for "saving" the Yankees without Sheffield and Matsui like ESPN constantly says. It's tough to lose when you have the lineup that the Yankees had. However, Torre did a pretty good job with the team this year and I'm not really sure Torre deserves this, especially considering how long he has been in NY.
I can't wait for the Torre to the Sox threads.
I can't wait for the Torre to the Sox threads.
Geeeeee....Maybe Torre can manage the Sox next year.......That would be sweet...11111....
Mike
Mike
QUOTE(Cambridge @ Oct 8 2006, 08:07 AM) [snapback]596460[/snapback]
From ESPN:
"According to the New York Daily News...the popular Yankees manager will be fired unless he decides to resign first to save face. Sources told the newspaper that former Yankees player and manager Lou Piniella will be owner George Steinbrenner's choice to replace Torre."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2617224
Sweet Lou would give Red Sox Nation a chance. Welcome To ESPN Joe. 2000 is 6 years ago since you were a winner. This will be a an interesting offseason for sure in MFY Land.
This is one of those threads that you could go on and on,1stly the yankees don't get it just because you spent the most doesn't gaurentee you will win a championship...thus now it is Torre's fault LOL I guess that someone has to take the fall but I think that Cashman is part of the problem he is the one that bought the groceries ...lets take a look.
The one that stands out the most to me is Carl Pavano talk about over estimating his worth 40 mil and exactly how many games has he pitched ??? he wasn't even a .500 pitcher before the huge contract..
Randy Johnson who was a decent pick up is old (for baseball)and starting to show his age fast..then there is the imortal Jaret Wright..nuff said I mean come on how good is he
And then there is Damon now I realize some would say this is sour grapes but really do we expect Damon to be playing in year 3 of the contract ?? I know I don't..Then there is Arod..who justly has the 22mil target on his back but really was he a good fit for NY ??? My biggest question when the yankees swooped in during the sweepstakes that they may have over estimated him as a person and not the baseball player..he flourished in Seattle and again in Texas both arguably low key metro's to play in...
so all in all when distrubting the blaim It should start with Steinbrenner and cashman and then Torre..he held this team together .. and the better pitching won..notice a trend here??
by the way I would love to see the guy manage in Boston ...
The one that stands out the most to me is Carl Pavano talk about over estimating his worth 40 mil and exactly how many games has he pitched ??? he wasn't even a .500 pitcher before the huge contract..
Randy Johnson who was a decent pick up is old (for baseball)and starting to show his age fast..then there is the imortal Jaret Wright..nuff said I mean come on how good is he
And then there is Damon now I realize some would say this is sour grapes but really do we expect Damon to be playing in year 3 of the contract ?? I know I don't..Then there is Arod..who justly has the 22mil target on his back but really was he a good fit for NY ??? My biggest question when the yankees swooped in during the sweepstakes that they may have over estimated him as a person and not the baseball player..he flourished in Seattle and again in Texas both arguably low key metro's to play in...
so all in all when distrubting the blaim It should start with Steinbrenner and cashman and then Torre..he held this team together .. and the better pitching won..notice a trend here??
by the way I would love to see the guy manage in Boston ...
You know.... with this news, it WOULD be smart for the Yankees to hire Joe Girardi....
Naw, they'll just hire Sweet Lou.
I think that Torre shouldn't get fired, but what else are you gonna do? You fired the pitching coach last year I think. The hitting coach was fired a couple years ago; eventually it is gonna lead back to the manager. A year from now if this same thing happens, Cashman will go.
Naw, they'll just hire Sweet Lou.
I think that Torre shouldn't get fired, but what else are you gonna do? You fired the pitching coach last year I think. The hitting coach was fired a couple years ago; eventually it is gonna lead back to the manager. A year from now if this same thing happens, Cashman will go.
Nothing definite yet, ESPN News has had an update as well as ESPN this morning. No definite word yet and probably nothing expected until Monday. The NY stations are saying Joe is out, Lou Pinella will be the new manager.
If this turns out to be false, please JimEd this thread, it does however sound like multiple sources are confirming and just waiting for the official word to come down......
If this turns out to be false, please JimEd this thread, it does however sound like multiple sources are confirming and just waiting for the official word to come down......
Merged threads.
Carry on.
Carry on.
I thought baseball transactions like this aren't supposed to be announced until after the WS so it doesn't overshaddow the postseason like this is right now? We might not have official word for a little while.
Girardi would have been a better choice IMHO. With Pinella though, I would assume they are going to keep A-Rod.
fwiw, I have no interest in Torre managing the Sox, which some here have mentioned. I've heard enough negative things about him from Yanks fans I know and seen how he uses his bullpen and inexplicably stays with favored veterans. maybe when the Sox had more veteran "personalities" to manage, like in '03 when Little was here, but I think Torre's the wrong direction.
As for the Yanks, if they do fire Torre, people have mentioned Girardi rather than Piniella. I'm not sure either is a great fit for the Yankees, but regarding Girardi, are there examples of such a young manager succeeding with such an old team? He's basically an older peer for many of the players.
Girardi would have been a better choice IMHO. With Pinella though, I would assume they are going to keep A-Rod.
Why -- were they together in, and have a good relationship from, Seattle?
As for the Yanks, if they do fire Torre, people have mentioned Girardi rather than Piniella. I'm not sure either is a great fit for the Yankees, but regarding Girardi, are there examples of such a young manager succeeding with such an old team? He's basically an older peer for many of the players.
QUOTE(buffs4444 @ Oct 8 2006, 09:15 AM) [snapback]596509[/snapback]
Girardi would have been a better choice IMHO. With Pinella though, I would assume they are going to keep A-Rod.
Why -- were they together in, and have a good relationship from, Seattle?
QUOTE(chicowalker @ Oct 8 2006, 10:19 AM) [snapback]596510[/snapback]
Why -- were they together in, and have a good relationship from, Seattle?
that was my recollection. I could be wrong though.
I wouldn't be surprised if they kept cleaning house over there though and got rid of A-Rod and Wright, let Mussina and Sheff go without picking up their options, in addition to the Torre move. First and foremost, one of the top pitchers will end up there, probably Schmidt.
I know someone has to take the blame in Yankeeland, but this seems rash and reactionary. The players and the injuries were equally to blame. I would jettison Arod before Torre, he's a huge distraction and it has to bleed into the clubhouse in ways we don't see, and possibly can't imagine...
6 yrs of having the highest payroll in baseball...by far and nothing to show.
2001, he did all he could. Mo had the ball with the win in hand and he blew it.
2002, he was badly outmanaged by Scoscia when the yankees had the much better team.
2003, he couldnt get his club ready after beating the red sox in 7 grueling games and he lost to the FAR undermanned FLA team.
2004, up 3-0, he lost for the first time in MLB history. Choke of the century.
2005, he was outmanaged again by Scoscia and a horribly undermanned angels team
2006, he was outmanaged by Leyland and he couldnt get his team rady against a team that he owned in the regular season. 2000 is a long ways away, and getting the best resources for a long span of time and putting nothing on the table has repercussions. I respected Torre, but it is time for them to change managers. If this were the sox we were talking about, Torre's head would have been on a pike after 2004.
I know someone has to take the blame in Yankeeland, but this seems rash and reactionary. The players and the injuries were equally to blame. I would jettison Arod before Torre, he's a huge distraction and it has to bleed into the clubhouse in ways we don't see, and possibly can't imagine...
ARod is next.
2001, he did all he could. Mo had the ball with the win in hand and he blew it.
2002, he was badly outmanaged by Scoscia when the yankees had the much better team.
2003, he couldnt get his club ready after beating the red sox in 7 grueling games and he lost to the FAR undermanned FLA team.
2004, up 3-0, he lost for the first time in MLB history. Choke of the century.
2005, he was outmanaged again by Scoscia and a horribly undermanned angels team
2006, he was outmanaged by Leyland and he couldnt get his team rady against a team that he owned in the regular season. 2000 is a long ways away, and getting the best resources for a long span of time and putting nothing on the table has repercussions. I respected Torre, but it is time for them to change managers. If this were the sox we were talking about, Torre's head would have been on a pike after 2004.
QUOTE(jenny @ Oct 8 2006, 12:29 PM) [snapback]596514[/snapback]
I know someone has to take the blame in Yankeeland, but this seems rash and reactionary. The players and the injuries were equally to blame. I would jettison Arod before Torre, he's a huge distraction and it has to bleed into the clubhouse in ways we don't see, and possibly can't imagine...
ARod is next.
QUOTE(Bozzs @ Oct 8 2006, 10:48 AM) [snapback]596484[/snapback]
Torre..he held this team together ..
by the way I would love to see the guy manage in Boston ...
I tend to agree. Not so much about his managerial skills. He was basically a .500 manager every where else he managed. He landed in the right place at the right time with a boatful of talent besides. I think what Torre brings to the mix, his intagible, if you will, is his ability to keep a team full of all-star egos from killing each other. Very little of the club house politics, with the exception of the occasional snipe toward A-Rod, ever made its way into the public eye. Torre gets a huge amount of credit for that.
Pinella, lets be frank, does not have that same ability.
Pinella seems best when you have a relatively young and impressionable team. A group of grizzled vets are going to tune him out.
Having said that, I don't want Torre in Boston.
QUOTE(yazgoesbacklooksupitsgone @ Oct 8 2006, 12:32 PM) [snapback]596517[/snapback]
I tend to agree. Not so much about his managerial skills. He was basically a .500 manager every where else he managed.
He was actually much worse than a .500 manager. Joe Torre and Phil Jackson are charter members of the Grossly Over-Rated Coaches Club.
QUOTE(jenny @ Oct 8 2006, 10:29 AM) [snapback]596514[/snapback]
I would jettison Arod before Torre, he's a huge distraction and it has to bleed into the clubhouse in ways we don't see, and possibly can't imagine...
I wouldn't be surprised if A-Rod also goes, as part of a big housecleaning but also to show the players this isn't getting laid squarely on Joe Torre's feet. Players, coaches, there were many reasons behind this collapse.....
In baseball terms, what is going on in New York right now is huge. Joe Torre has been the manager of the Yankees for 11 seasons. He has taken the Yankees to the playoffs in each of those years, including 6 trips to the World Series and 4 World Championships.
If Torre is fired or resigns, it is the end of an era. And for all the stability, confidence, and calm that Torre projects, the future will be anything but for the Yankees. The entire personality of the Yankees will change with Torre.
The events of the next few days will be fascinating to watch, and if Torre does indeed pass the torch, things will be much different moving forward.
If Torre is fired or resigns, it is the end of an era. And for all the stability, confidence, and calm that Torre projects, the future will be anything but for the Yankees. The entire personality of the Yankees will change with Torre.
The events of the next few days will be fascinating to watch, and if Torre does indeed pass the torch, things will be much different moving forward.
From the NY Daily News
I'd have to agree that SiaS gives Torre a FO job just out of his paranoia that the Sox would make a run at him.
Good luck with Sweet Lou, TiaT. It will be the Bronx Zoo all over again when Pinella goes off on a vet in the dugout for poor play.
QUOTE
Unless other team officials can talk The Boss out of it, or unless Torre, 66, agrees to resign in order to save face, sources said principal owner George Steinbrenner will replace the manager who was credited with returning the team to its fabled glory. Yankees General Manager Brian Cashman is expected to keep his job, as are most members of the front office. Torre may be offered another position within the organization.
...
Sources told the Daily News that Piniella has been in discussions with the Chicago Cubs, San Francisco Giants and Washington Nationals, and Steinbrenner does not want the Yankees to miss a chance to sign the man considered the natural successor to Torre for years.
...
Sources told the Daily News that Piniella has been in discussions with the Chicago Cubs, San Francisco Giants and Washington Nationals, and Steinbrenner does not want the Yankees to miss a chance to sign the man considered the natural successor to Torre for years.
I'd have to agree that SiaS gives Torre a FO job just out of his paranoia that the Sox would make a run at him.
Good luck with Sweet Lou, TiaT. It will be the Bronx Zoo all over again when Pinella goes off on a vet in the dugout for poor play.
QUOTE(Lou Duffys Cliff @ Oct 8 2006, 11:16 AM) [snapback]596573[/snapback]
From the NY Daily News
I'd have to agree that SiaS gives Torre a FO job just out of his paranoia that the Sox would make a run at him.
Good luck with Sweet Lou, TiaT. It will be the Bronx Zoo all over again when Pinella goes off on a vet in the dugout for poor play.
I don't think the Sox would make a run at Torre. Too much Yankee in him now. As for Piniella getting into it ŕ la with Rob Dibble back in the day, I think he's too old now. For the record, Piniella had the Yankees for 1986 - 1988, records were:
90-72, 2nd place
89-73, 4th place
85-76 (picked up for Billy Martin who was fired for the 5th time midway through the season). Piniella had been promoted to GM after the 1987 season so Martin could manage. Steinie was in his heyday then.
QUOTE(Lou Duffys Cliff @ Oct 8 2006, 12:16 PM) [snapback]596573[/snapback]
From the NY Daily News
I'd have to agree that SiaS gives Torre a FO job just out of his paranoia that the Sox would make a run at him.
just because they offer him a FO job doesn't mean he has to take it.
if he wants to manage again, he'll manage again.
which teams could afford Torre and might have an opening?
I'm not coming up with many besides Boston...... Texas maybe?
the Cubs? (though they're really not close to winning)
Baltimore? (another bad team)
Cleveland?
Pinella is a garbage manager if anyone has watched him with TB the last few years. He would be one of the worst picks for the Yankees as manager as he would be his own 3 ring circus. Thats what makes it so perfect as a Sox fan though. Sias is clearly losing it so this wouldn't be much of a surprise.
BTW does anyone else think theres no way Torre would take a FO job with the Yanks if he's fired? Why wouldn't you take the money still owed and say "screw you" and go manage another team?
BTW does anyone else think theres no way Torre would take a FO job with the Yanks if he's fired? Why wouldn't you take the money still owed and say "screw you" and go manage another team?
QUOTE(Lou Duffys Cliff @ Oct 8 2006, 11:16 AM) [snapback]596573[/snapback]
From the NY Daily News
I'd have to agree that SiaS gives Torre a FO job just out of his paranoia that the Sox would make a run at him.
Good luck with Sweet Lou, TiaT. It will be the Bronx Zoo all over again when Pinella goes off on a vet in the dugout for poor play.
I think you're absolutely right about SiaS and Torre.
I think no one should be looking for Torre to either be in another team's uniform, or even in a pinstriped suit-and-tie on ESPN for, say, the next 2-3 years.
He still has another year to go on his Yankee contract, so it's said, and I'll bet part of that is some kind of severance package that says he's mandated to lie low and live off the balance of the contract and not "embarrass" the Yankees by either playing against them or talking about them.
--------------------------------
As for the possibility of the Yanks replacing Torre with Piniella, and regarding Piniella's relationship with ARod in Seattle: In hindsight I think ARod had a good relationship with anybody in Seattle who could help his budding career. That would NOT include Junior Griffey, but probably included Lou Piniella and Edgar Martinez and Jay Buhner. The latter two taught him something about a great work ethic, but unfortunately none of them passed their team-orientated mindset and grit on to ARod.
QUOTE(SuperManny @ Oct 8 2006, 12:04 PM) [snapback]596595[/snapback]
BTW does anyone else think theres no way Torre would take a FO job with the Yanks if he's fired? Why wouldn't you take the money still owed and say "screw you" and go manage another team?
Depends on the contract. Maybe the only way he gets that money is that he doesn't manage for the term of the contract or has to give it back.
Great. I can't wait for "Baseball Tonight" with Ravech, Kruk, T. Martinez and Torre. Egads.
It does sound as though some if this might be spur of the moment, reactionary thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if, after the big "sitdown" in Tampa this week, cooler heads prevail and Torre is retained. Big Stein releases a statement saying he wants to committ to winning championships and Torre is the man to continue the great Yankee tradition. Then he'll throw in some quote from MacArthur or Patton, and the world will be great again.
It does sound as though some if this might be spur of the moment, reactionary thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if, after the big "sitdown" in Tampa this week, cooler heads prevail and Torre is retained. Big Stein releases a statement saying he wants to committ to winning championships and Torre is the man to continue the great Yankee tradition. Then he'll throw in some quote from MacArthur or Patton, and the world will be great again.
QUOTE(SuperManny @ Oct 8 2006, 12:04 PM) [snapback]596595[/snapback]
BTW does anyone else think theres no way Torre would take a FO job with the Yanks if he's fired? Why wouldn't you take the money still owed and say "screw you" and go manage another team?
Age, and he's had cancer, and to "spend time with the family". I think at the least he'd take a year off. Some of the older managers have done pretty well, like Leyland and Jack McKeon, so he could look at that and sign with some other team down the road.
QUOTE(mascho @ Oct 8 2006, 03:15 PM) [snapback]596603[/snapback]
does sound as though some if this might be spur of the moment, reactionary thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if, after the big "sitdown" in Tampa this week, cooler heads prevail and Torre is retained.
I agree.
But the more I think of it, as a Sox fan...bring on Pinella, baby!
This yr was veiled by ESPN as his best season, keeping the team afloat during a storm of injuries. But, everyone must also see that the sox fading hid much of the blemish that the team had. Torre is not a guy who you give a team and say go win the series. He is a guy who will fill a lineup and sit back and watch the team play. In the land of revenue sharing baseball, that doesnt fly anymore.
Also, to those who think he has kept the locker room in check, consider the amount of sniping that has been in the media the last few months. Giambi toward ARod, ARod toward everyone, Torre and the entire team vs Pavano, Mussina toward ARod etc. This is the loudest the yankee lockerroom has been when talking about internal struggle in a long time.
Also, to those who think he has kept the locker room in check, consider the amount of sniping that has been in the media the last few months. Giambi toward ARod, ARod toward everyone, Torre and the entire team vs Pavano, Mussina toward ARod etc. This is the loudest the yankee lockerroom has been when talking about internal struggle in a long time.
For those who think Piniella is a good pick, consider the fact that he was already fired once in NY and that he took the best regular season team in baseball history (162 game season) to the ALCS and got whooped by Torre's bombers.
To those who think Piniella is a bad manager, see the jump in wins by Piniella in TB or the before and afters in Seattle or Cincy for that matter.
In NY, he coached 3 seasons and the team was over .500 in every season.
In Cincy, he took a team that was 12 games under .500 in 1989 and in his first season won a WS. He left after 1992 when he won 90 games
In Seattle, he took a team that was 34 games under .500 in 1992 and got them to 2 games over .500 in 1993. Seattle had never been to the playoffs in their history until he took them to the playoffs 4 times. In Seattle, there are only 2 other managers in their history (became a team in 1978) who managed the team to a .500+ record, and those were Melvin in 2003 with all the players that were left over from the Piniella era (96-69) and Jim Lefebvre in 1991 (4 games over). Piniella took the mariners to a .500+ win% season 7 out of his 10 seasons and holds the record for most wins in a season at 116.
In TB, he made an 8 game improvement over Hal McRae in his first season and then took the team to their only 70 win season the following yr.
The guy has the resume. He has the fire that George wants and he has gotten production out of his players. Randy and ARod blossomed under him, and we shall see if they respond to the in your face attitude of Piniella. One mix that would not work is Piniella and Sheffield, so you can be 100% sure that sheff will be available this winter. Overall, I think it is a move that is long overdue.
To those who think Piniella is a bad manager, see the jump in wins by Piniella in TB or the before and afters in Seattle or Cincy for that matter.
In NY, he coached 3 seasons and the team was over .500 in every season.
In Cincy, he took a team that was 12 games under .500 in 1989 and in his first season won a WS. He left after 1992 when he won 90 games
In Seattle, he took a team that was 34 games under .500 in 1992 and got them to 2 games over .500 in 1993. Seattle had never been to the playoffs in their history until he took them to the playoffs 4 times. In Seattle, there are only 2 other managers in their history (became a team in 1978) who managed the team to a .500+ record, and those were Melvin in 2003 with all the players that were left over from the Piniella era (96-69) and Jim Lefebvre in 1991 (4 games over). Piniella took the mariners to a .500+ win% season 7 out of his 10 seasons and holds the record for most wins in a season at 116.
In TB, he made an 8 game improvement over Hal McRae in his first season and then took the team to their only 70 win season the following yr.
The guy has the resume. He has the fire that George wants and he has gotten production out of his players. Randy and ARod blossomed under him, and we shall see if they respond to the in your face attitude of Piniella. One mix that would not work is Piniella and Sheffield, so you can be 100% sure that sheff will be available this winter. Overall, I think it is a move that is long overdue.
The word down here (in NYC area) is that Torre is gone unless Cashman can talk George out of it. Other that the $$$$ why would Lou want this job over the others? Would the $$$ difference be that great to offset all the crap?
I wouldn't be surprised if Lou doesn't take it. If Lou turns it down, do they keep Torre?
I wouldn't be surprised if Lou doesn't take it. If Lou turns it down, do they keep Torre?
QUOTE(Hank F @ Oct 8 2006, 06:04 PM) [snapback]596661[/snapback]
The word down here (in NYC area) is that Torre is gone unless Cashman can talk George out of it. Other that the $$$$ why would Lou want this job over the others? Would the $$$ difference be that great to offset all the crap?
I wouldn't be surprised if Lou doesn't take it. If Lou turns it down, do they keep Torre?
Two words: Ego.
Am I the only one whose mind was blown when they found out Pinella was 3 years younger than Torre?
Please hire Lou. What fun that will be.
QUOTE(MargoAdamsLoveChild @ Oct 9 2006, 01:52 AM) [snapback]596780[/snapback]
Two words: Ego.
I think "Ego." is one word
QUOTE(nickdog @ Oct 9 2006, 07:52 AM) [snapback]596794[/snapback]
Please hire Lou. What fun that will be.
It will be fun but at the same time he has a reputation of winning. Either he's going to blow up the Yankees or make them a contender.
QUOTE(Red Sox Fan2 @ Oct 9 2006, 10:19 AM) [snapback]596832[/snapback]
I think "Ego." is one word
It will be fun but at the same time he has a reputation of winning. Either he's going to blow up the Yankees or make them a contender.
He also has a history of headhunting Red Sox while with Tampa, but as I said over in the Yankee's main thread ARod will be his guy in the clubhouse.
I think it would be a travesty to fire Joe Torre. Yes he has been given a killer line-up these last few years but he he has done a decent job in the regular season ....last year he won with Chacon and Small in the rotation and this year with Sheffield and Matsui in the DL. His all-star lineup goes like 1 for 100 in three games and it is his full because he "didn't tell them to adjust"?
It's funny that nobody mentions that the FO is accountable for this. I think Brian Cashman should be fired. Which won't happen because there's the argument that many of his moves might have been come fro the Boss himself.
Yeah, the lineup is awesome. But they, not Torre spent some ridicoulous money on Pavano, who is injured but had only one good national League season to warrant his contract, they signed Wright a guy who pitched good in Atlanta for a year and a half under Mazzone who sprinkles everybody with Cy Young dust. They did not go hard after Pettite ( who was a good fit in New York) and brought Randy in the twilight of his career. Before Randy there was that Kevin Brown signing. Despite their 200 million payroll, they did not shore up the bullpen very well with Fansworth and yes, Gordon wanted to close, but if they give him the money he might have stayed.
More pitching blunders?.....they gave up on Contreras after one year. Yes el Duke and Livan Hernandez thrived in the majors inmediately but this guy needed some time. And he was well worth it....for the White Sox that is.
Better yet.....George should fire himself.
It's funny that nobody mentions that the FO is accountable for this. I think Brian Cashman should be fired. Which won't happen because there's the argument that many of his moves might have been come fro the Boss himself.
Yeah, the lineup is awesome. But they, not Torre spent some ridicoulous money on Pavano, who is injured but had only one good national League season to warrant his contract, they signed Wright a guy who pitched good in Atlanta for a year and a half under Mazzone who sprinkles everybody with Cy Young dust. They did not go hard after Pettite ( who was a good fit in New York) and brought Randy in the twilight of his career. Before Randy there was that Kevin Brown signing. Despite their 200 million payroll, they did not shore up the bullpen very well with Fansworth and yes, Gordon wanted to close, but if they give him the money he might have stayed.
More pitching blunders?.....they gave up on Contreras after one year. Yes el Duke and Livan Hernandez thrived in the majors inmediately but this guy needed some time. And he was well worth it....for the White Sox that is.
Better yet.....George should fire himself.
QUOTE(NU five oh @ Oct 9 2006, 12:24 AM) [snapback]596786[/snapback]
Am I the only one whose mind was blown when they found out Pinella was 3 years younger than Torre?
So, you thought Joe was much more than 3 years older than Lou, or the other way? I don't know about how they look, but Piniella sounds a lot closer to senility than Torre, who actually is very lucid still.
QUOTE(Tony Armas 84 @ Oct 9 2006, 12:49 PM) [snapback]596894[/snapback]
I think it would be a travesty to fire Joe Torre. Yes he has been given a killer line-up these last few years but he he has done a decent job in the regular season
Better yet.....George should fire himself.
QUOTE
What concerns me isn’t that the Yankees lost. What concerns me is that they and their manager set themselves up for a free ride going into the playoffs. After a season of laying all failures at the feet of Alex Rodriguez, and going so far as to inspire and participate in a Sports Illustrated story that furthered that storyline, the Yankees absolved themselves of responsibility. Complicit with the media, they washed their hands and let Rodriguez carry the water for their performance.
At just about any point along the way, one of the two most visible Yankees—Joe Torre or Derek Jeter—could have come forward and said what should be obvious: Alex Rodriguez is a great, great player, and in the worst season of his career he’s a star. Defining his season by his lowest points is doing him a disservice, and the constant focus on his play is an insult to the other members of the team. Whatever Rodriguez’s performance issues, such as they were, his overall contributions were valuable. Beyond that, he’s one of the game’s model citizens, with barely a controversy to his name in a time when so many others have been tainted.
That statement, completely true, would have done more to alleviate the pressure on Rodriguez than anything else. They didn’t do so, instead allowing petty nonsense like his desire to please people (heaven forfend) and his performance is varied subsets (in Boston, in the playoffs, against a small handful of pitchers, in 20 at-bats in July) to substitute for real information. They didn’t defend their teammate, and by allowing, even stoking, the situation, they absolved themselves and every other Yankee of blame for their fortunes. If they lost, it would be Rodriguez’s fault, no matter how the rest of them played.
Torre’s handling of the Rodriguez situation is perhaps the blackest mark on his record. Going so far as to bat him eighth in a playoff game, a move guaranteed to make him a point of discussion, would have been the nadir if he hadn’t already reached that in the pages of SI. Torre made his bones in New York by keeping controversy out of the clubhouse; he committed a boner by turning his clubhouse into a circus this year.
As far as Jeter goes, any claims to a captaincy or leadership skills are and will remain in doubt. His refusal to provide a full-throated defense of the player whose willingness to take his Gold Gloves to third base allowed the illusion of Jeter’s defensive prowess to grow to a point where he could get his own hardware is as much to blame as Torre’s sudden open-mouth policy. He could have stopped this with 50 well-chosen words. He didn’t, and it’s fair to wonder why.
Alex Rodriguez “sucked,” to use his words, against the Tigers. He’s a part of the Yankees’ failure to advance. He’s not the biggest one, on or off the field, and I can only hope people recognize that, and take a good, long look at what happened in the last four months, before writing their next article or making their next trade.
At just about any point along the way, one of the two most visible Yankees—Joe Torre or Derek Jeter—could have come forward and said what should be obvious: Alex Rodriguez is a great, great player, and in the worst season of his career he’s a star. Defining his season by his lowest points is doing him a disservice, and the constant focus on his play is an insult to the other members of the team. Whatever Rodriguez’s performance issues, such as they were, his overall contributions were valuable. Beyond that, he’s one of the game’s model citizens, with barely a controversy to his name in a time when so many others have been tainted.
That statement, completely true, would have done more to alleviate the pressure on Rodriguez than anything else. They didn’t do so, instead allowing petty nonsense like his desire to please people (heaven forfend) and his performance is varied subsets (in Boston, in the playoffs, against a small handful of pitchers, in 20 at-bats in July) to substitute for real information. They didn’t defend their teammate, and by allowing, even stoking, the situation, they absolved themselves and every other Yankee of blame for their fortunes. If they lost, it would be Rodriguez’s fault, no matter how the rest of them played.
Torre’s handling of the Rodriguez situation is perhaps the blackest mark on his record. Going so far as to bat him eighth in a playoff game, a move guaranteed to make him a point of discussion, would have been the nadir if he hadn’t already reached that in the pages of SI. Torre made his bones in New York by keeping controversy out of the clubhouse; he committed a boner by turning his clubhouse into a circus this year.
As far as Jeter goes, any claims to a captaincy or leadership skills are and will remain in doubt. His refusal to provide a full-throated defense of the player whose willingness to take his Gold Gloves to third base allowed the illusion of Jeter’s defensive prowess to grow to a point where he could get his own hardware is as much to blame as Torre’s sudden open-mouth policy. He could have stopped this with 50 well-chosen words. He didn’t, and it’s fair to wonder why.
Alex Rodriguez “sucked,” to use his words, against the Tigers. He’s a part of the Yankees’ failure to advance. He’s not the biggest one, on or off the field, and I can only hope people recognize that, and take a good, long look at what happened in the last four months, before writing their next article or making their next trade.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5603
some interesting comments from Sheehan over at BP, and he's a diehard Yankee fan.
QUOTE(Doc @ Oct 9 2006, 10:09 AM) [snapback]596902[/snapback]
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5603
some interesting comments from Sheehan over at BP, and he's a diehard Yankee fan.
I don't have a subscription to BP, so...
Hey, Doc, what did Joe Sheehan have to say on October 3rd, when he posted an article called "Prospectus Today: Division Series Picks
by Joe Sheehan -- Joe makes all the calls, and throws in a World Series prediction for good measure"? I'm just curious...
QUOTE(WesternCorrespondent @ Oct 9 2006, 03:06 PM) [snapback]596984[/snapback]
I don't have a subscription to BP, so...
Hey, Doc, what did Joe Sheehan have to say on October 3rd, when he posted an article called "Prospectus Today: Division Series Picks
by Joe Sheehan -- Joe makes all the calls, and throws in a World Series prediction for good measure"? I'm just curious...
QUOTE
The Yankees catch a break by facing the Tigers in the first series. The Tigers’ hacktastic approach will make it easier on their staff, which has a bit of a hole in the middle, some heavy workloads at the back, and a limited Mariano Rivera. The A’s and Twins are much better equipped to exploit these issues, and the Yankees will only have to face one of them.
here's a nice example, BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/contact....rospectus+Today
here's a link to his email
QUOTE(Malzone64 @ Oct 9 2006, 01:02 PM) [snapback]596901[/snapback]
So, you thought Joe was much more than 3 years older than Lou, or the other way? I don't know about how they look, but Piniella sounds a lot closer to senility than Torre, who actually is very lucid still.
The other way, I would have guessed Piniella was at least several years older than Torre.
QUOTE(NU five oh @ Oct 9 2006, 04:33 PM) [snapback]597176[/snapback]
The other way, I would have guessed Piniella was at least several years older than Torre.
I wonder if that's because, with all those TV shots of Torre in the dugout in all those games we've watched, it's really the Madame Tussaud's waxwork effigy of Torre we've been seeing.
WEEI has reported from the NY Post that Steinbrenner has changed his mind and will bring back Joe Torre next year.
QUOTE(jsinger121 @ Oct 10 2006, 08:16 AM) [snapback]597318[/snapback]
WEEI has reported from the NY Post that Steinbrenner has changed his mind and will bring back Joe Torre next year.
I think that this is a statement on how much power Cashman really has. If Steinbrenner's Tampa crew were still in charge, as they were a few years ago, Torre would've been out on his ear. Cashman reportedly felt very strongly about retaining Torre, and he was able to talk Big Stein out of it.
Now, the interesting thing will be to see what happens with A-Rod, Sheffield, and Mussina. The buzz is that they'll pick up Sheffield's option and trade him, so that he doesn't sign with the Red Sox or Mets.
That buzz sounds like crap to me. Sheffield has a no trade clause...So if he really wanted to make life hell for the Yankees next year(we're talking about Gary Sheffield), he would invoke the clause and be a prick, something he's done over and over in his career. Unless they work something out with him before hand, He's either going to be a Yankee next season or released. I don't see them picking up his option for fear that he'd refuse the trade.
QUOTE(jsinger121 @ Oct 10 2006, 05:16 AM) [snapback]597318[/snapback]
WEEI has reported from the NY Post that Steinbrenner has changed his mind and will bring back Joe Torre next year.
Joe ought to tell George to stick it where the sun don't shine. Every year lately the Yankees get off to a bad start, there's crap everywhere about placing blame, mostly on Torre, and he quietly turns things around and gets them to a first place finish.
Then, it's the players, the ARods and the over the hill RJ types that George insisted on signing, that don't perform and they get bounced from the playoffs. 2004 after game 3 was an especially great example of the Yankees players quitting or whatever and another team advancing. 
Joe Torre will go to the hall of fame but Steinbrenner won't.
QUOTE(jsinger121 @ Oct 10 2006, 08:16 AM) [snapback]597318[/snapback]
WEEI has reported from the NY Post that Steinbrenner has changed his mind and will bring back Joe Torre next year.
Well, if true, then Arod is 100% gone. Can't keep him after how Torre has handled him in the SI article and then embarrassing him by dropping him to 8th in the batting order in Game 4.
QUOTE(D-Lowe @ Oct 10 2006, 10:28 AM) [snapback]597348[/snapback]
Well, if true, then Arod is 100% gone. Can't keep him after how Torre has handled him in the SI article and then embarrassing him by dropping him to 8th in the batting order in Game 4.
Torre gets more heat than he should for dropping A-Rod in the order. He deserved to be dropped (though maybe not to eighth). But the way Torre (as well as Juiciambi and Jeter) threw A-Rod under the bus in Verducci's article was absolutely unforgivable and I wuoldn't be surprised to see A-Rod quietly ask the NYY FO to deal him.
QUOTE(Manny's ps2 @ Oct 10 2006, 09:35 AM) [snapback]597335[/snapback]
That buzz sounds like crap to me. Sheffield has a no trade clause...So if he really wanted to make life hell for the Yankees next year(we're talking about Gary Sheffield), he would invoke the clause and be a prick, something he's done over and over in his career. Unless they work something out with him before hand, He's either going to be a Yankee next season or released. I don't see them picking up his option for fear that he'd refuse the trade.
Sheffield doesn't have a no-trade clause. He's one of the few Yankee stars that doesn't. That's why his name came up in trade talks last year. I believe he threatened to make life miserable for any team that acquired him -- that was his way of trying to scare teams off from trading for him. But he can't actually block a trade. And at this point, there's not a whole lot of room for in NY, so I don't think he'd pitch a fit about being dealt.
QUOTE(D-Lowe @ Oct 10 2006, 11:28 AM) [snapback]597348[/snapback]
Well, if true, then Arod is 100% gone. Can't keep him after how Torre has handled him in the SI article and then embarrassing him by dropping him to 8th in the batting order in Game 4.
I've heard no indication that Arod would wave his no trade. Quite the opposite really.
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