In correlation with the Red Sox all-time thread I felt like making a general one. This is who I would have on my all-time team

C- Jonny Bench 1970- Possibly the greatest defensive and offensive catcher of all time. In 1970 Bench hit .293 with 45 HR and 148 RBI's. I don't think any catcher compares.

1B- Jimmie Foxx 1933- He won the Triple Crown when he hit .356 with 48 HR and 163 RBI.

2B- Rogers Hornsby 1925- Another Triple Crown winner who hit .403 with 39 HR and 143 RBI.

3B- Mike schmidt 1980- Winner of the Gold Glove award, MVP, and WS MVP all in the same year. Schmidt hit .286 with 48 HR and 121 RBI

SS- Honus Wagner 1908- Why Wagner? He was probably the best all-round player to date. He was a great defender and still managed to hit .354 with 10 HR and 109 RBI under the dead ball era. He also had 19 triples and stole 53 bags.

LF- Ted Williams 1941- Ted Williams should have won the MVP that year despite DiMaggio. At that time a sac-fly counted as an AB and so Teddy's BA should have been .412 instead of .406. He also hit 37 HR with 120 RBI.

CF- Willie Mays 1955- It all depends on which Mays you want but in 1955 Mays hit .319 with 51 HR and 127 RBI to go along with 24 SB. He was also a damn good fielder.

RF- Babe Ruth 1921- .378 BA 59 HR and 171 RBI do I need to say anything more?

DH- David Ortiz 2006- This spot is reserved for DH's only. I don't think there has been a better season by a DH than Ortiz when he hit .287 with 54 HR and 137 RBI last year.

SP- Roger Clemens 1987- 281.2 IP with an ERA of 2.97. He also had 256 SO a 1.18 WHIP and was 20-9.

SP- Pedro Martinez 1997- 241.1 IP with an ERA of 1.90! He also had 305 SO a 0.93 WHIP and a 17-8 record.

SP- Johan Santana 2004- 228.0 IP with an ERA of 2.61. He also had 265 SO a 0.92 WHIP and a 20-6 record.

SP- Randy Johnson 2001- 249.1 IP with an ERA of 2.49. He also had 372 SO a 1.01 WHIP and a 21-6 record.

SP- Walter Johnson 1910- 370.0 IP with an ERA of 1.36. He also had 313 SO a 0.91 WHIP and a 25-17 record.

CL- Jon Papelbon 2006- 68.1 IP with an ERA of 0.92. He also had 75 SO a 0.78 WHIP and 35 Saves.


Note: Wasn't sure were to put this, Mods, feel free to move it.

not a full team, but some quick hit thoughts:

'68 Bob Gibson, '63 era Koufax would put the pressure on the hitters. Actually, the '72 Steve Carlton (27-10 for a Phutillies squad that won 59 games) could probably benefit from the stacked lineup above.

Closers: Tie between Goose Gossage and Fruitbat. Yeah, they're MFYs, but they threw the high pressure innings for a very, very long time. It comes down to preference, Fruitbat's cutter or Goose's 1-2 punch of 90's heat and one of the truly nastiest sliders ever.

Ty Cobb-yeah, he was an A$$-hole, but someone who got a hit 37% of the time could probably find a place on the all time team.
Hank Aaron-dammifino who he bumps, but Looies is still boggled by one simple fact: Take away the HR's and the man *still* had 3000 hits.
Ricky Henderson-someone has to steal the bags, and besides every team needs someone who refers to himself in the 3rd person

Without peeking at the other picks, and using five-year minimum contiguous seasons (to eliminate those outlier Billy Mueller-type seasons):

C - Cochrane, 1930-35
1B - Gehrig, 1927-34
2B - Hornsby, 1920-25
3B - Schmidt, 1979-83
SS - Wagner, 1904-1909
LF - Williams, 1941-49
CF - Mantle, 1956-63
RF - Ruth, 1920-24

SP - Martinez, 1997-2001
SP - Clemens, 1986-91
SP - W.Johnson, 1912-19
SP - Koufax, 1962-66
SP - Alexander, 1915-1920

RP - Hoffman, 1998-2002

Gotta give Joe DiMaggio some note here for CF. He was pretty solid, the man had only 8 less career strikeouts than homeruns! CF is a pain though with guys like Mantle, Musial, Snider, Mays, etc, etc.

Bob Feller probably gets some of my consideration from 45-51.

Lastly, while I think Cochrane was great (as were guys like Yogi, Fisk, and Bench) I think Bill Dickey is the most under the radar catcher in history. He unfortunately played third fiddle to Ruth and Gehrig but the numbers are staggering. He caught over 100 games in 13 straight years - an AL record. First guy to allow zero passed balls in a whole season (125 games in 1931). He hit over .300 in 10 of his first 11 years. 11 All Star appearances and 7 WS rings were a nice touch as well. In 1936 he played in 'only' 112 games and hit .362 with 107 RBIs, and in 1937 he hit .332 with 29 HR's and 133 RBI's. Now get this one, in 1935 he had 448 official at bats, with 35 walks, and only 11 strikeouts. He just rarely struck out, only twice in his 16 year career did he top 30 K's and had 20 or less 12 times. I realize I may be biased because he is a Yankee but I always viewed him as every bit as good as Yogi, he just goes un-noticed by many because of his teammates at the time.

For SS I think A-Rod should probably get some love too, even though half of you hate him. He was one of the better SS's of all time when he played there.

At C, I think Ivan Rodriquez deserves some consideration. I think maybe Ripken or ARod could get the nod at short if you want to make the argument that the level of competition in the big leagues just wasn't as high in Wagner's time, but if you start to make that argument, it really starts to crack down on many of the guys who played before Robinson, Clemente, etc. and it might defeat the purpose of the exercise.

Honus Wagner rocked, though, and any discussion that brings him up is one worth having.

Not Musial. Stan was a barely adequate left fielder even as a 21-year-old rookie in 1942. He was moved to 1B very early in his career. Snider is good, but nowhere near the Five Great Ones: Mantle, DiMaggio, Mays, Cobb, Speaker.


For several of those years, including the championship season of 1948, Feller wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team (Bob Lemon was). His best years were before the war, I think: 1939-1940.


Dickey was indeed great, but his offensive numbers were inflated by the jackrabbit-ball era in which he played. (Of course, Cochrane played in the same era, so what do I know?) Yogi and Bench are in the discussion. So is Roy Campanella. Fisk is several paces behind.

Come to think of it, I can't believe I left Lefty Grove off my staff. He had the misfortune of dealing (like Pedro) with an offensive explosion. Sack that Koufax guy and put in Grove, 1928-32.


Then why is he playing third base?

A-Rod does deserve consideration. No shortstop has numbers like his.

Didn't have time to check numbers except Dickey, mentioning Musial was dumb and I agree on Snider. Just names that popped into my head. All things considered I'd take Mantle myself, barring injuries he may have been the best ever - but I hate 'what if' discussions so I will just leave it at my opinion.

You're right about Feller, I just looked. He was still pretty solid though. Cleveland had some nice staffs in that timeframe. Paige and Spahn too I should have noted for pitchers. Agreed on Grove as well.

I would put Dickey up there with the all time great catchers (O & D) - easily. Posted above is correct too I-Rod should be up there also.

Cannot believe I forgot Campanella though.

A-Rod, if he never moved would probably go down as the best SS ever though a case for Wagner could easily be made.

Schmidt is probably the only one I think is just head and shoulders above almost anyone at his position.

I will have to look at some numbers and rethink some picks when I am done with work. I was just taking a quick break and wanted to chiime in some thoughts.

I'm going to go for the all-time all-offense team. Defense be damned! Defined as highest OPS+ in a single season by a player playing at least 70% of his games at that position.

C - Mike Piazza, 1997 - can't turn down an OPS+ of 186 (362/431/638) from the C position, even as bad as he was (and still is) defensively.

1B - Lou Gehrig, 1927 - a line of 373/474/765 with 47HR and 175 RBI. I'm a big fan of OPS+, and that 221 is nice.

2B - Rogers Hornsby, 1924 - 424/507/696 good for an OPS+ of 222

SS - Honus Wagner, 1908 - 354/415/542 in 1908. Another OPS+ of over 200 with a 205.

3B - George Brett, 1980 - 390/454/664. OPS+ of 202.

LF - Barry Bonds, 2002 - 370/582/799. OPS+ a mind-blowing 275. Morals can go sit next to defense on the bench on this team.

CF - Mickey Mantle, 1957 - 365/512/665. Good for a 223 OPS+

RF - Sammy Sosa, 2001 - 328/437/737. 201 OPS+.

DH - Travis Hafner, 2006 - 308/439/659. OPS+ of 183. Ok, so I should have specified games played instead of % of games at a position. Edgar Martinez (1997 or 1995) would have won out that way, but I'd prefer Hafner, because he was just that good last year, in spite of the missed time.

I find this offensive. Therefore, I present:

CLYDE'S DAMNED ALL-LEATHER ALL-STARS
(based solely on reputation and a faulty memory)
C - Rodriguez (Runners-up: Cochrane, maybe Jim Hegan)
1B - Sisler (r-u: Hernandez, Hodges)
2B - Mazeroski (r-u: Frisch)
3B - B.Robinson (r-u: the odious Nettles)
SS - Smith or Wagner (you decide)
LF - Yaz (good fielders rarely wind up in LF... maybe Barry B in his early years?)
CF - Speaker (props to DiMaggio, people who saw each say they were the best ever)
RF - Clemente, Clemente, Clemente
P - Harry Brecheen (r-u: Kaat, Maddux)

I think I'd still win a lot of games with a lineup of Wagner-Speaker-Sisler-Yaz-IRod-Clemente-Robinson-Maz.

I'll do a somewhat realistic 25 man roster.
Here's the lineup, in order:

LF - Barry Bonds
DH - Ted Williams
RF - Babe Ruth
1B - Lou Gehrig
CF - Willie Mays
SS - Honus Wagner
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - Mike Schmidt
C - Johnny Bench

BN - Ty Cobb
BN - Mickey Mantle
BN - Jimmie Foxx
BN - Joe Morgan
BN - Yogi Berra

Here's the pitching staff:

SP - Pedro Martinez
SP - Walter Johnson
SP - Roger Clemens
SP - Randy Johnson
SP - Lefty Grove
RP - Cy Young
RP - Greg Maddux
RP - Sandy Koufax
RP - Pete Alexander
RP - Christy Mathewson
CL - Mariano Rivera

For the DH I chose the next best hitter, not a true DH.
For the bullpen I chose not to include true middle relievers.
Berra is there because any real team should have a backup catcher.
Joe Morgan as my utility infielder might be the most controversial choice.

What team could the above roster possibly lose against, if ever?
Maybe this one, every so often:

LF - Stan Musial
RF - Hank Aaron
CF - Tris Speaker
DH - Joe Dimaggio
SS - Alex Rodriguez
1B - Hank Greenberg
3B - Eddie Mathews
C - Mike Piazza
2B - Nap Lajoie

BN - Roberto Clemente
BN - Rickey Henderson
BN - Mickey Cochrane
BN - Albert Pujols
BN - Eddie Collins

SP - Tom Seaver
SP - Steve Carlton
SP - Johan Santana
SP - Bob Gibson
SP - Bob Feller
RP - Mordecai Brown
RP - Warren Spahn
RP - Juan Marichal
RP - Carl Hubbell
RP - Jim Palmer
CL - Hoyt Wilhelm

...and for the hell of it, how about the team both of those two "beat up on":

3B - Wade Boggs
SS - Arky Vaughan
CF - Ken Griffey Jr.
LF - Manny Ramirez
RF - Frank Robinson
DH - Harry Heilmann
1B - Johnny Mize
C - Roy Campanella
2B - Jackie Robinson

BN - Mel Ott
BN - Cal Ripken
BN - George Brett
BN - Carl Yastzremski
BN - Pudge Rodriguez

SP - Rube Waddell
SP - Whitey Ford
SP - Addie Joss
SP - Dizzy Dean
SP - Kevin Brown
RP - Gaylord Perry
RP - Phil Niekro
RP - Ed Walsh
RP - Nolan Ryan
RP - Don Drysdale
CL - Goose Gossage

Oodles of notable omissions and misplacements, naturally.

Yeah, you could make a better case if he threw Bream out though during a rather crucial moment!

I can think of about forty pitchers you didn't mention who are better than Nolan Ryan.

Haha! I knew Nolan would get called out. I figured I could sneak him in at what's essentially #29 on the all time SP list. I guess even #29 is too high? For now, forget I tried to sneak Nolan in, and pretend I put Dazzy Vance there. But I must ask, why not call out Steve Carlton, too? Clyde, if you personally think Carlton is also overrated, then feel free to ignore the following: In my opinion, Carlton isn't that much better than Ryan. Carlton has the edge, don't get me wrong, but it's not a big edge. Carlton had 4 great seasons, and a plethora of average-to-very-good seasons. Ryan had maybe one great season (strike-shortened 1981), and a plethora of average-to-very-good seasons. Look at it this way, though: Ryan's ERA was about 25% (or more) better than the league average 7 times. Carlton's? 6 times. Ryan never won a Cy Young, true -- and yes, Carlton won 4. But Ryan has just as many top five Cy Young finishes, and 2 more top ten finishes -- and he faced a tougher pool of competitors. Carlton led his league in ERA once, finished in the top five 5 times + top ten 8 times -- Ryan led his league in ERA twice, and also finished in the top five 5 times + top ten 8 times. Ryan was the wildest pitcher of all time, yes -- but he was also the least hittable pitcher of all time...that's got to count for something. As wild as he was, Ryan led his league in WHIP twice, had 5 top five finishes, and 9 top ten finishes. Carlton? Never, 4, and 5.

I was in a hurry yesterday, and kinda forgot about my pitching rotation and closer.

SP1 - Pedro Martinez, 2000 - ERA+ of 285 over 217.0 IP. I think that the IP are almost as important as the quality of said innings when comparing insanely great seasons by insanely great pitchers.

SP2 - Dutch Leonard, 1914 - ERA+ of 279 in 224.7 IP. He'd be ahead of Pedro...if it was anybody other than Pedro. That's my knee-jerk emotional excuse for the roster.

SP3 - Greg Maddux, 1994 - ERA+ of 273 in 202.0 IP. That's a pretty impressive number of IP for a strike-shortened season. He averaged a hair over 8IP (8.08, to be exact) per start, which is insane.

SP4 - Walter Johnson, 1913 - ERA+ of 259 in 346.0 IP. No need for middle relief with him throwing. He pitched 12 games in relief, but still had 36 starts.

SP5 - Bob Gibson, 1968 - ERA+ of 258 over 304.7 IP. I didn't want to take Maddux twice, and I wanted another innings-eater at the back end of the rotation!

CL - Dennis Eckersley, 1990 - ERA of 0.61 over 73.3IP. Good for an ERA+ of 606. With the innings that my starting rotation is eating, I don't need a multi-inning closer. I will take a man who was the Destroyer of Worlds for a single inning, every single time he came out to pitch that season. Apologies to Papelbon's 0.92 ERA over 68.3 IP (ERA+ of 500). If Paps had stayed healthy all season, he might have made it instead.

I understand you're simply going with baseball-reference.com's top single-season ERA+ performances, but you have no lefthander. I would counter with a 1931 Grove, plus a 1915-16 Alexander (TWENTY-EIGHT shutouts over two seasons, pitching in the tiny Baker Bowl!)

The notion of Johnson and Gibson as "back-of-the-rotation innings-eaters" is amusing.

I don't particularly like the idea of compiling an all-time team based on single seasons. I hate all-time teams based on career totals, I'm definitely one to favor 4 or 5 year peaks (even if non-sequential)...OTOH, single season peaks introduce the possibility for flukes. But I'll go ahead and do it since that's what RSF2 started the thread with. Again, I'll create a somewhat realistic 25 man roster.

DH - Barry Bonds 2001
LF - Ted Williams 1941
RF - Babe Ruth 1921
1B - Lou Gehrig 1927
CF - Mickey Mantle 1956
SS - Honus Wagner 1908
2B - Rogers Hornsby 1922
C - Johnny Bench 1972
3B - Al Rosen 1953

BN - Ty Cobb 1911
BN - Stan Musial 1948
BN - Jimmie Foxx 1932
BN - Joe Morgan 1976
BN - Mike Piazza 1997

Here's the pitching staff:

SP - Pedro Martinez 2000
SP - Walter Johnson 1913
SP - Dwight Gooden 1985
SP - Greg Maddux 1995
SP - Bob Gibson 1968
RP - Lefty Grove 1931
RP - Pete Alexander 1915
RP - Christy Mathewson 1909
RP - Ron Guidry 1978
RP - Mordecai Brown 1906
CL - Dennis Eckersley 1990

Sorry, I never even seriously considered the handedness of any pitcher. If you have 5 guys who are that great, who cares what arm they use to throw the ball?

In 1931, Grove had a ERA+ of 219 over 288.7 IP. He had 27 CGs out of his 30 starts, 4 shutouts, and a K/BB ratio of 2.82 (175/62). He struck out 5.45 batters per 9IP.

I was only taking single seasons, so you'd have to specify which Alexander season you'd prefer. 1915 (fewer IP and SHO, but more dominant by ERA+), or 1916. Also, Alexander was a RHP, so I guess you meant him separately from the "you have no lefthander" point. I'm judging by ERA+, so I'll take his 1915 season to compare him to the 5 guys I chose, plus Grove.

[codebox]Player Year IP GS CG SHO K/BB K/9 ERA+
Grove 1931 288.7 30 27 4 2.82 5.45 219
Alexander 1915 376.3 42 36 12 3.76 5.76 225
Martinez 2000 217.0 29 7 4 8.87 11.77 285
Leonard 1914 224.7 25 17 7 2.93 7.05 279
Maddux 1994 202.0 25 10 3 5.03 6.95 273
Johnson 1913 346.0 36 29 11 6.39 6.32 259
Gibson 1968 304.7 34 28 13 4.32 7.91 258 [/codebox]

From the sheer volume of IP, plus the CGs and SHO (although these obviously happened more in certain eras of baseball than others, and are not really easily adjusted for ballpark and competition factors), I can see the argument that Alexander belongs instead of Maddux, but given Maddux's more dominant rates (particularly the impressive lack of walks), I'd stand by my choice. I just can't see how Grove's season can hold a candle to any of the others on this list. Unless you want him just for the sake of having a LHP, in which case I could understand this, but would strongly disagree. I rely so heavily on ERA+ because it is a single stat that is adjusted for ballpark and league, and it is readily available on a non-subscription site. I'm not aware of a better stat to use to compare players from different eras/leagues/ballparks that is available without charge. I am obviously open to suggestions on that front.

I was kinda joking about Gibson and Johnson being "inning eaters" out of the shock that they had been so dominant over so many innings. I ordered my rotation purely by "dominance" (which I think is best defined by ERA+ in this situation, and I realize that is a subjective judgement on my part that is open to debate/question/mocking), even though I kept the IP in mind.

And that's why I don't like single season stat peaks. Dutch Leonard's 1914 ERA is the definition of a fluke. Maybe he happened to pitch half his games on damp days when the ball was heavier? Seriously though, he was at best a pretty good pitcher with one fantastic year. He's not even the best Dutch Leonard of all time.

Lefty Grove's 1931 can't be measured by ERA+ alone. When you're dealing with ERA+'s above 200, you have to begin considering other criteria, too. Such as how successful he was. I know wins are anathema to statheads, but a 31-4 record means something. Winning the MVP means something. Dutch Leonard in 1914 didn't even make the top 15 in MVP voting.

EDIT: There's something about ERA+ that always bothers me.

Leonard: 0.96 ERA when the league average was 2.68

versus...

Grove: 2.06 ERA when the league average was 4.51

ERA+

279
219

Actual runs lower than league average

1.72
2.45

I feel like there's something that ERA+ doesn't account for there.

What you may not be accounting for there, FourthBase is ballpark adjustments, which are a part of ERA+. ERA below the league average is not the only component. I think it's pretty intuitive that an ERA of 2.40 in a pitcher's park and an ERA of 2.40 in a hitter's park (in the same league, for the sake of this example) aren't totally equivalent. Leonard played in Fenway Park in 1914, which has always played as a hitter's park (as far as I am aware, I'm not sure where to find 1914 and 1931 park factors). I suspect that's the factor that you're leaving out where ERA+ is concerned.

As for the vaunted wins argument, if you're looking at any given player's W-L totals in a single season, I don't think there is a disagreement that there is some meaning behind the numbers. I think the question is what that meaning is. I would put forth the following meanings behind Grove's 31-4 season (and the 19-5 Leonard season that you are comparing him to).

1) The Philadelphia A's went 107-45 that season in 152 games. He was pitching for a more dominant team than Leonard's 1914 Red Sox (91-62 in 153 games).
2) Grove pitched in more games (41) than Leonard (36)
3) Since Grove wound up with more wins (31) than games started (30), I would take that to mean that his team took the lead back while he was on the mound in relief more often than Leonard's Red Sox did.
4) Grove's bullpen did a better job of protecting his leads than Leonard's did (all 3 times Grove didn't have a CG in one of his starts). Call it the "Pedro Martinez" effect, if you'd like. From a glance at the team pages:

1914 Red Sox - http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1914.shtml
1931 A's - http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PHA/1931.shtml

looks like Grove had more good innings coming out of the bullpen behind him than Leonard did.

5) Grove did a better job of pitching deeper into games than Leonard did, in spite of giving up more runs overall (the CG numbers make this fairly obvious, although you couldn't get that from just W-L numbers)

I'm not aware of a source that has more detailed game information for the 1914 and 1931 seasons that I can use to draw any reasonable conclusions, but that would be going beyond just W-L numbers anyway.

I won't argue that Leonard's season was a fluke. That said, if I'm picking best single season performances, I'm not overly concerned with whether they are the results of fluke years, or more impressive amounts of talent.

B-R has the park factors for every park, every year, including the 1914 Sox.

That year Fenway played at just about league average.

This used to trouble me as well. But if you work out expected winning percentages from baseball's Pythagorean Theorem, it becomes clear that the RATIO of a pitcher's ERA to the league's ERA is the important consideration, and not the DIFFERENCE.

I recall mclusky was greatly relieved when I finally understood that principle.

Pwned. I'm an idiot.

Does it matter that ERA+ doesn't account for league quality like OPS+ does? The 60's and 70's seem under-represented in the all-time single-season ERA+ chart. Was it harder to get distance between the league average when the league's pitching was, on average, better?

There's the ratio to league average, but I think seeing how far the leader outpaced his closest peers should show something different and possibly just as relevant. Here's top ten for ERA in 1914 and 1931:

Leonard-BOS .96
Foster-BOS 1.70
Johnson-WSH 1.72
Caldwell-NYY 1.94
Cicotte-CHW 2.04
Weilman-SLB 2.08
Benz-CHW 2.26
Bender-PHA 2.26
Fisher-NYY 2.28
Warhop-NYY 2.37

.74
.76
.98
1.08
1.12
1.30
1.30
1.32
1.41

Grove-PHA 2.06
Gomez-NYY 2.67
Hadley-WSH 3.06
Brown-WSH 3.20
Marberry-WSH 3.45
Uhle-DET 3.50
Earnshaw-PHA 3.67
Walberg-PHA 3.74
Ferrell-CLE 3.75
Faber-CHW 3.82

.61
1.00
1.14
1.39
1.44
1.61
1.68
1.69
1.76

Here's the top ten for ERA+ in 1914 and 1931:

Leonard-BOS 279
Johnson-WSH 164
Foster-BOS 158
Caldwell-NYY 142
Cicotte-CHW 131
Weilman-SLB 130
Fisher-NYY 121
Benz-CHW 119
Warhop-NYY 117
Bender-PHA 115

+115
+121
+137
+148
+149
+158
+160
+162
+164

Grove-PHA 219
Gomez-NYY 149
Hadley-WSH 140
Brown-WSH 134
Uhle-DET 132
Marberry-WSH 124
Ferrell-CLE 124
Earnshaw-PHA 123
Walberg-PHA 121
Coffman-SLB 120

+70
+79
+85
+87
+95
+95
+96
+98
+99

So it seems like Lefty was outpacing his peers by about the same raw margin...
But when the league average is used to measure them, Leonard towers over Lefty.
There's something wrong there, I swear. But I'm probably missing something obvious.

Not much new to add to the mix but here goes by two cents worth.

C- Josh Gibson
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Rogers Hornsby
SS- Honus Wagner
3B- Mike Schmidt
LF- Ted Williams
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Roberto Clemente
DH- Babe Ruth
SP- Grover Cleveland Alexander
SP- Walter Johnson
SP- Leroy "Satchel" Page
SP- Roger Clemens
RP- Mariano Rivera
Manager- Casey Stengel