I dedicate this thread to Ralpho, who often accuses me of owning the Yankees' thread.

Right now, though, the Yanks should be an after-thought to what the Red Sox are doing. Maybe they will become a viable topic after a decision is made on Torre. And then A-Rod. Any speculation on those subjects right now is, of course, premature.

Like it or not, Yankee fans, it's time to step aside and see what the Red Sox can do about winning the World Series. I'm rooting for them. But that's just me. I'm bipolar.

2 points.

1) It is great to see this thread started so early.

B) This is a very important thread as the Yankees have a tremendous amount of important decisions to make in the next few months. Torre, Mo, Posada, Arod, Damon, Abreu are all just the tip of the proverbial iceburg.

what's with all the capitalization?....sheesh a little moderator power went right to your head...

as far as the yanks offseason i will say that if i was Joe Torre i'd tell big stein to take a powder.....who wants to be jerked around like that?

that was my take on torre, too. just tell him to stuff it. but joe's waiting around his house in westchester again. he won't quit on his players, i guess. from the way everyone talked after game 4, it sounded like joe told them good-bye. but he continues to wait.

cooler heads may prevail again. the key to this team is not changing managers. it's changing the focus away from mercenary players with limited all-around skills. the giambi signing, viewed after five seasons, is a disaster. it's time to go back to the 1996-2001 formula of pitching, timely hitting and defense. like the red sox have done. this isn't a new concept, just something the yankees got away from in the rush to fill the stadium with four million people every year.

p.s. -- good line on the caps.

Joe Torre should not be brought back. He had his run, it was fantastic, but it's time to move on. Time to let someone grow with the new core we're building.

Someone previously, incorrectly, stated that Joba looked good as a reliever but we're not sure how he projects as a starter. He projects as a top of the rotation shut down pitcher. He's also not "fragile" in the least. That's not to suggest he can't be injured, just that this isn't a current concern. He has right now two plus pitches, his FB and slider. Supposedly, his change is better than his slider and he also has a nasty curve. He will, however, have an innings cap and will have to transition to starter. As we've seen with even the most talented guys like King Felix, that will take some time. Calling Hughes injury prone is silly. He pulled a hamstring this past season and then injured his ankle while rehabbing. Hardly a "history," just some misfortunate happenstance. He looked fantastic in his last relief outing and *that* is the guy we're going to start the season with, only with more velocity on the FB. Again, he'll probably have somewhat of an innings cap, but he should be pretty good pretty quickly next season. Kennedy does project as a number 3 guy, which is all he needs to project to with Joba and Hughes here. We'll also have Pettitte and Wang back next season, so our rotation actually looks younger than it has in years.

I have no idea what's going to happen with A-Rod. I suspect he'll be back and Boras is just going through his normal negotiating motions. No one is giving Alex $300 for ten years at age 32. This is the same Boras who assured everyone Damon would get 7 years. If A-Rod opts out, I'd be part of the reason has to do with wanting out of the NYC environment. If that's the case, I wouldn't get too excited if I were a Sox fan. If he's leaving NY due to all the negativity, he's not going to come running to the one fan base and media market that's treated him worse than Yankee fans.

Mo and Po will probably be back. Of course Mo is going to say he wants Torre back, but ultimately who cares what Mo wants? He also wanted Bernie in CF. I love Rivera, but the more he talks about what the Yankees did or didn't do last off season, the more he sounds like one more spoiled multimillionaire athlete babbling about "respect." The guy is a legend, and I want him back because a.) he's the best option at closer for us and b.) it decreases the odds that the FO does something stupid like making Joba a closer. I want Posada back because there is nothing available at catcher. Neither one is probably going to go anywhere regardless of Torre's employment.

I really don't know how busy this off-season will be. I think some folks are wildly overestimating how much "turmoil" the club is in. More than anything, I'm excited for the kids in our rotation. I don't know if it's going to happen next October, but at some point some team is going to have to fret over how they get past Hughes and Chamberlain in a playoff series. I can't wait.

I personally want Pettite, Clemens to retire, Rivera and Posada to leave, A-Rod to go to Chicago and the Blue Jays to finish 2nd next year with the Yankees fighting the Devil Rays for 3rd place.

That is my dream.

BBtB, i'm with you. This team is fixable rather quickly. It's just a matter of how quickly do Joba and Hughes become key starters. Hughes proved his worth in September. If he comes back stronger, and regains those extra four miles on his fastball, he could have a breakthrough season next year. And the stuff Joba showed us was filthy. Four pitches, all of them nasty. If Andy comes back, and Wang recovers from his trauma, we could actually have a balanced pitching staff next year. And that's not even counting Kennedy or Moose.

The rest of it is simple. Sign Mo and Po. Exercise the club option on Abreu.

I think A-Rod's gone but my opinion doesn't matter. If George wants him .... personally, I was surprised to see him at the game the other night. Mortified is another word that comes to mind.

Personally, I think if the Yanks play this right, they will not be a playoff contender next year ... however, will put themselves in a great position to be contenders [and probably favorites] for the '09 and beyond seasons. Hughes, Chamberlain, Wang, Kennedy, Horne, Bettances, HSanchez, Whelan, Cano, Melky, AJackson, Tabata, Horne, etc ... they have a nice group of potential young stars [some who already are stars] for the near future ... Obviously some won't pan out, but some will. We will just have to see if they [SiAS] panic, or if they will use their money, and homegrown talent wisely.

First topic: Joe Torre

I could go into a defense of the man and why he should be brought back, starting with the fact that his team unanimously supports him, and several have already said it will impact their decisions on whether to come back.

But rather than rehash what everyone already knows regarding Torre's track record as Yankee manager, I will ask the question: If not Torre, who?

Don Mattingly? Not one day of major or minor league managerial experience. If the Yankees make Donnie their manager, that is good from a Red Sox fan's perspective.

Joe Girardi? Baseball player, YES broadcaster, and 1 year as Florida Marlins manager. Manager of the Year in the National League. Took a team with the lowest payroll in baseball, with a team primarily consisting of rookies, and exceeded expectations and almost finished .500. The team played in front of 10,000 per night, with no media spotlight and zero pressure to win. Girardi was fired after one year for not being able to get along with the team owner.

Tony Larussa? He's over 60 years old just like Torre is. Would he even want to manage for Steinbrenner? If the Yanks can lure Larussa, great. The Cards finished under .500 this year and he's got some baggage as well.

The thing is while some Yankee fans would like to see a managerial change, I don't know of a better alternative. We saw the Merry Go Round in the Bronx as far as managers are concerned....Buck Showalter, Stump Merrill, Bucky Dent, Dallas Green, Lou Piniella, all the way back to Billy Martin and Yogi Berra. Joe Torre has the respect of his players. Joe Torre is a stabilizing influence on this ballclub. I pity the guy that has to replace Torre.

As I said in the other thread:

The Yankees almost have to keep competing with over priced veterans, if they wish to continue to compete in '08 and beyond. They only have Cano, Melky, Wang, Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, and Tabata as their youth. When you break them down, Joba performed as a reliever in 22 MLB innings. He looks like a great RP but I wonder how he will fair as a SP. Also, there is a fear that Joba is fragile. Hughes on the other hand, has a history of injuries at the ripe age of 21. He can be lethal, so long as he’s healthy. Wang is mediocre on the road, Melky has a very nice arm and range but his bat is just as weak as Coco’s. Kennedy’s ceiling is that of a number three starter and already looks like a finished product. From scouting reports I have read, scouts now see Tabata as Bobby Abreu, which is still good, but not the “next Manny Ramirez or Vladimir Guerrero”.

It's not likey that they can trade some of their veterans off either.

Who has a fear that Joba is fragile?

he had some minor arm issues in his last year at nebraska, causing some teams that wanted to draft him way high in the first round to back off. other than that, he's no different than any young pitcher. they're all fragile until proven otherwise.

He doesn't look fragile. His velocity did decline in his second inning of work the other night, other than that, he looked as strong as a bull the entire season, albeit with the Joba rules in place.

I think a more interesting subject is the thought that Joba projects to be a top of the rotation starter. Perhaps he does. But I know that in Spring Training when Papelbon was switching to starter, many Yankee fans would not acknowledge that he would even make a good #2 as a starter. I know I also heard Leiter and others opine this year that Chamberlain may be best suited to being a short reliever. We're told that Chamberlain has the secondary pitches that Papelbon doesn't, but I saw pretty much fastball/slider this season. So we'll see what next year has in store. I will look forward to seeing the Joba rules 2008 version, including what his innings limit will be. I would guess 140 or so. So we'll see how the Yankees plan to fill in the gaps in the starting rotation because that will project into only about 22 starts for Joba if he pitches well, which leaves about 11-12 starts to fill. Hughes will likely be on a innings limit, too, but that might be 175-180 or so. Same with Kennedy. It's not singular to the Yankees...so will Buchholz. Interesting days ahead.

Ok, here's the question for Yankee fans:

Do you make a run for Santana if you have to include Hughes?

I would trade Hughes for Santana in a heartbeat. Santana is what you'd hope a young pitcher grow into, so why not get the established thing.

Incidentally, anyone comparing Joba's situation to Papelbon either isn't familiar with Joba or isn't familiar with Papelbon.

The only two deal I see that net Johan are:

Hughes+Melky+Kennedy

or

Hughes+Cano

I will be shocked if they threw Joba into the deal.

You shouldn't talk about the Yanks minor league system as you really don't know much about it. But you are correct that they don't have a lot of position talent that can jump in and help them right away. Tabata and Austin Jackson are their best and will most likely help them in 2010, maybe the end of 2009. They had a strong draft in 2007 but I doubt there will be any Joba's or Kennedy's that fly through the system in a year.

As for the pitchers, in addition to the ones you mentioned (and there isn't a fear that Joba is fragile and Hughes doesn't have a "history of injuries" as you said) Marquez, Horne, McCutcheon, Melencon, Cox, Olendorf, Whelan and Sanchez could all pitch for the Yanks in 2008 or 2009.

If the Yanks hold on to ARod and Posada and pick up Abreu's option I think they will be in decent shape in the field. I would like them to pick up a 1B but I'm not sure who's available. As for pitching, while I'm a little wary of having three rookies in the rotation, it can't be that much worse than what they've had to use for parts of the last two years. I think they'll try to add Melencon, Sanchez, Olendorf and maybe even Cox and Whelan to the bullpen sometime next year to shore that up.

I think that the Twins would insist on Cano being a part of any deal. He is going to be a great player. I don't think Melky has nearly the upside and in fact, I'm not sold on Cabrera as being even potentially very good, aside from defensively.

As for the comparison between Papelbon and Chamberlain, I know that Papelbon was a closer in college and the Red Sox made him a starter in their minor league system....he came up as a starter in 2005, and has been a closer for the past 2 years, and he is one of the most dominant, if not the most dominant, closer in baseball today. He has a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball, and he throws a devastating split. He even has thrown cutters in game situations this year. Chamberlain was a starter in college and in the minors and this is his first stint in the bullpen. He's supposed to have 4 pitches, but he was mostly fastball/slider and we didn't see much of the other 2 pitches, a curve and a change up. Potential health issues aside, if Papelbon moved into the starting rotation, I honestly don't know how an argument could be made that he wouldn't be a decent #2, but that argument was made all last offseason. But it's a moot point, because I don't think Papelbon is going anywhere. I was just pointing it out because apparently the same standard is not applied to Joba, who seemingly projects into a top of the rotation starter. So now the Yankees have 2 of those "projected" aces. However, as a Red Sox fan, I'd rather take my chances with Joba as a starter, because he was absolutely lights out as a short reliever and I see no reason why he wouldn't be again next year. He would also be the heir apparent to Rivera when Mariano finally needs a replacement. I know Joba won't be an ace next year or the year after, because he won't get enough innings. I hope the Yankees move him to starter.

It would probably take more though... I just mention Hughes because he's the one it would hurt most to give up.Would you break the bank with young players to get Santana? I think I would. Especially if Arod leaves. Do you go Hughes, Melky and Cano if that's what it takes though? What about Damon? Good fit in Minny if the Yanks swallow a lot of money? I think that could work. I seriously doubt the Sox would or could match a Hughes based offer, too.I agree on Hughes and Cano, but think Melky or Damon would have to be part of it. They definitely want to solve the CF issue.I dont think Kennedy would be that big a deal. They have some similar arms anyway, not that you can ever have enough pr that they wouldnt love to have him, but Id think that theyd rather have the position players + Hughes.I also think Pettite is back, but its not a lock if Torre goes. Less likely Mo is back. but I think they keep Posada. I do think Arod is gone.

I'm not high on Olendorf and his delievery scares the crap out of me. Sanchez just had TJ surgery and I'm not sure how he'll fit. Hughes had a shoulder injury 2 years ago (right at his innings cap), had a oblique strain at the begging of this year, and than followed with a level 3 ankle sprain. Teams stayed away from Joba because they feared his weight, shoulder, and (ankle or knee, forget which one). Brackman screams Daniel Bard to me, but I'm unfamiliar with the other guys they drafted. As far as Marquez, Horne, McCutcheon, Melencon, and Cox I've only really heard about Horne.

Horne:

http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/2007/06/16/pro...e-8-alan-horne/

He flat out dominated this year in the light-hitting Eastern leauge. His MLB comparison is AJ Burnett but he's not the same fire-baller that he once was. He's 24 and will probably crack the MLB team at age 26. I'm not terribly high on him just yet. Either way he'll probably be a good addition to the starting rotation (if he's not traded).

Marquez is ranked 92 out of 100, McCutcheon tested positive for steriods in 2006 and I can't find anything else about him, Melencon has a history of injuries, but again, can't find anything else about him, and finally, Cox is compared to John Wetteland which is pretty good, however,

http://allyankeeinfo.blogspot.com/2007/03/...bs-drafted.html

That's a lot of IP for a RP.

I almost forgot Austin Jackson. Jackson probably has the upside but this year he hit .260/.340/.346, 151/61 K/BB, and his EqA was .221. You can't put too much stock into that because he's only 20, however, I've seen a lot of toolsy kids flame out.

On its face, this makes sense, but who do you replace him with? Girardi is the only one who makes any sense to me, and he's still a question mark, given his dearth of managerial experience. LaRussa and Mattingly might be improvements over Torre, but I don't see them as substantively so.

I see the managerial situation in New York as a no-win for both sides. Anyone who comes in, is the one who has to replace Joe Torre, which is impossible.

Joe girardi couldn't handle the front office in Florida, how is he going to get along with the Yankees front office? Plus, he doesn't have a lot of experience. Managing in front of 10,000 people in Florida isn't the same as managing in the Bronx. I also don't see him meshing with the veterans on the Yankees considering many of them were already veterans when Girardi retired and a few players were his teammates.

With Don Mattingly the negatives are more pronounced. Mattingly has never had any substantial managerial experience in the minors or majors. The only time he's ever managed a game has been when Torre was suspended or away from the team. Do you want a $180 million dollar team in the hands of a man with no managing experience. How is Mattingly going to handle the media? How has he handled the media the past couple of years?(I really don't know)

Tony LaRussa is 63 years old. How many more years does he want to coach for? He already has world series rings, his legacy is cemented. The media in St. Louis is nothing compared to New York's. Would LaRussa want to be a stopgap until Mattingly is ready? Would LaRussa want to have Mattingly as bench coach?

I would never give up Hughes, Melky, and Cano. Cano would be the deal breaker. Someone floated on another board Wang, Melky, and Kennedy. I'd do that no problem. If LaRussa is manager, I may only watch on days Joba and Hughes start. I wouldn't stop vomiting as I hate LaRussa.I'm really not a huge believer that a manager makes a giant game by game impact. I often disagreed with Nomaas's "Torre loss" stuff (not always, but often). I just feel that the culture in that clubhouse has gotten stale. Torre, as he's gotten older, is too set in his ways. He has his favorites and no one gets a chance outside of them. Leaving a guy like Wilson Betemit to rot on the bench is a good example. Maybe he would have been a jr version of Wily Mo, but it would have been nice to actually find out. I would be fine with Girardi, Valentine, or Mattingly. Managerial experience is overrated. Joe Torre sucked before he came to the Yankees, care to make a guess as to why he suddenly became a winner?

I saw the same thing Bronx. I think Minny could get more for Santana from another team (than Milky, The Wanger and Kennedy), and I don't see why the Yankees would give up Hughes AND Cano AND Cabrera, it's like tearing the young nucleus away for one pitcher. One fantastic pitcher, but that leaves the Yankees with several BIG holes to fill and in my opinion would hurt the team in the long run....They would either have to spend like crazy to get a CF and a 2b AND they'd be getting older, not younger, which i would think would be counter to their "plan".

I hate Bobby Valentine for personal reasons, so to me, he would be the perfect fit...Kind of like when they signed Sheffield!

Basically my best friend's dad (we were on the same LL team) designed one of Valentine's restaurants in Southern Ct, and as part of the payment, Valentine offered to donate a ton of equipment AND to stop by one of our practices as a favor...He did neither, so i consider him a vile piece of crap...Of course this was 1979 or 1980...So maybe he's alright now? (Plus, i think my friend's dad is in the mafia)

all great points Bs....it is just that when you state what i've embolded it seems like you want change for change's sake and i'm not sure that is always prudent....

i can tell you this: as a Red Sox fan i certainly would welcome a new yankee manager...

Valentine is very much a douchebag, and I loathed him when he managed the Mets, but I'd certainly take him over LaRussa.

About Santana, a guy much smarter than me on another board made a great point: the Twins can get a lot for Santana, but those teams that have the talent probably don't have the money to sign him long term. Of the teams that have the money to do that, the Yankees might be best positioned talent-wise. Of course, all of this will probably be rendered moot when Johan signs an extension with the Twins for less money than he'd get on the open market.

I know this means squat, when it comes to cashish, but I know Santana has ssaid he doesn't want to play for New York, but that could be a ruse to drive up the price. He is one guy that I'm quite sure would be just fine in the spotlight...BUT that short porch in Right Field may give him some pause as well...

Teams I could see in the mix:
CWS
LAA
LAD
Red Sox
ChC
NYY
Muts

You know, the big market boys.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on the manager. Change for change's sake is prudent when you have a guy who has been there for 12 years and keeps sticking to the same things in year 12 that he did in year 1. Also, it's kinda hard to get younger when Joe repeatedly insists he prefers veterans to kids, cause everyone knows the more baseball experience you have the better you are...even if you suck.Tommy, I just saw your follow up post. Papelbon never projected the way Joba does. If he did, and his shoulder allowed it, he'd be in the starting rotation. You only saw two pitches because that's all you need to succeed in relief. Joba projects as a number 1 guy, a King Felix. You don't take that talent and limit it to 80 innings a season instead of 200. This is not to suggest it's a guarantee Joba becomes that, but all the elements are there. Baseball is about playing the odds, and the odds that Joba develops into a number 1 are incredibly high.This past ALDS should highlight how much more important strong SP is to a closer. I'd much rather have a Beckett, Sabathia, or Carmona on my team than Mariano Rivera, as dominant and wonderful as Mo has been in his role. In fact, just take a look at Cleveland's closer vs. ours and try to explain to me again why it's smarter to keep Joba as a reliever instead of returning him to starter.Why would the short rightfield porch give him pause, he's a lefty?

Papelbon projected to be aq #1 or #2...So I'm going to disagree there. It's been agreed that being in the rotation may have indeed been better for his shoulder due to regular rest. Let's not annoint Joba the next King Felix until he actually starts a few games. Will his shoulder hold up to the pressure? Will he be able to throw high nineties CONSISTENTLY over a long season? Will he pitch as well without the adrenaline surge of blasting out of the bullpen? These are all things to consider. I have to say i am very impressed with what i saw from him this year and he obviously has some incredible talent...But I wouldn't say he's a lock to be Roger Clemens. He could very well end up being Kyle Farnsworth or Craig Hansen (so far).

Funny, I don't recall calling him a lock to be anything. I said he had King Felix type talent, and obviously whatever he becomes he won't blossom into it this season. And I don't recall Papelbon ever projecting as a number 1 guy, and while the regular rest would have been good for him, the amount of innings required to throw wouldn't have been. He's a closer because that's what his shoulder can handle. Papelbon never had Joba's stuff. Not even close.

As for your questions about Joba: he doesn't have shoulder problems, so I don't know where that comes from. Could he develop a shoulder problem? Sure, I guess so. He threw high 90's CONSISTENTLY all season long, of which only 24 innings were as a reliever. He's natural role is a SP. Finally, I think his talent plays a bigger role in what he accomplished than any adrenaline surges. He probably won't be gassing 99 consistently every start because obviously pitching over the course of 6 or 7 innings has to be handled differently than one or two where you can empty the tank. But that's where his other pitches come in. If his change and curve are as good as advertised, he certainly doesn't need to pump 99 MPH past hitters every AB to get outs.

It's gonna be a lot of fun watching him progress.

It may be New England fandom, but I read numerous magazines in which the title read "Rocket II" and it showed Papelbon. I think Remy and Don also pimped him out saying how his composure and stuff is similar. Not saying it’s true or anything, just from what I’ve seen/read.

Joba’s shoulder problems stem from concerns when he was first scouted and drafted. Teams were afraid that would be a problem for him. I just wonder how he progresses next year because I’m in the school of thought that making him a RP stunted his growth and development. It is natural for a RP to stick with 1-2 pitches.

I would like to know your take on what I wrote about the Yankee system.

Santana-to-the-Yankees speculation is interesting fodder, but the announcement I expect to hear in early November doesn't involve NYY.

What about " Rodriguez opts out of contract; to leave NYY?"

I think all of that "Rocket II" stuff had more to do with Boston producing a pretty good pitcher than actually comparing his stuff to Clemens. One of the biggest concerns about Papelbon was whether or not his secondary stuff was good enough to make him a starter, that was before the shoulder issue. He certainly has the composure.

My point on Joba vs. Papelbon is really just centered on the fact that their situations aren't alike once you get past the surface comparison of a good young pitcher being shuttled between relief and starting. Joba has more tools than Papelbon at age 22, and has been a starter in his very short career up until the last 24 innings of that career. All you can do with any of these kids is take what they have, see how it works against hitters at each level, and project from there. None of my comments about Joba have guaranteed anything, other than I'm really excited to see what he can do as he progresses. He's clearly got the stuff and the composure (his bug game notwithstanding), so it really does come down to health and how the organization handles him.

As for your take on the system, I'm only really familiar with the marquee guys. I don't think Hughes is considered to have an injury problem - the stuff that occurred with his leg was something that could have happened to anyone for any reason at any level of play. I think there's a good possibility Sanchez will turn out to be a fantastic signing once he's recovered from TJ surgery. TJ surgery just isn't considered a problem anymore, and the kid could be in our pen as early as mid-season. Bracken looks like a complete shot in the dark, but NoMaas's Lane Myer had a fantastic write up on the kid and if it works out, he sounds like quite an impressive athlete. If Santana winds up in Boston I'll need a new TV because I'm going to go SSA on mine.(If that's what you're getting at. And if you are, I'm curious, what package would Boston be willing to give up? I think we're in a better position player-wise, but I"m not intimately familiar with Boston's system. If you're not referring to this at all...then, Wha?)

The Mets ?

the mets is a very good assumption. they've got to do something big this winter with their pitching.

I can agree with everything you say about Joba. As for Hughes he's only 21 and has sustained a shoulder injury that would have shut him down for a season, luckily it was at his innings cap. The oblique strain could have happend to anyone but the level 3 ankle sprain is a nasty one. I think Sanchez will be more of a factor in '09 than in '08, but if were talking about the future, that's a plus in the right direction.

The Red Sox could give up Buchholz+Crisp+Lowrie. I think that deal would be win-win for both teams.

Ohhhh right. Damn Mets.

The most fascinating thing about the discussion about how prospects "project" is how often even the supposed "experts" disagree.

For example, on this very day in the Red Sox thread on nyyfans.com, NDBoston posts an interview question with an "expert" on how Joba projects vs. Buchholz. This expert raved about Joba, but said that scouts are slightly higher on Buchholz because he has better command of more pitches. He said Joba has two plus plus pitches right now, and some scouts rated his changeup as average. The conclusion was that Buchholz is 1 and Joba is 1a.

So if Joba projects into a top of the rotation type of ace, and Buchholz is evaluated even higher, that's pretty good from a Red Sox point of view.

The problem with all this is that if you ask a different "expert," they might tell you something else. Most experts did not project Dustin Pedroia to be a .320 major league hitter, although Pecota seemed to have more faith in him than anywhere else. The other problem is that projections do not always come true. Just how many young, top of the rotation starters have emerged injury free and fulfilled their potential? Not too many.

I also hope the reality of King Felix doesn't get lost in translation here...the sky may be the limit in terms of potential, but the reality has been 1 stellar half a season in 2005, and two consecutive years with ERA's over 4 and some injury problems.

Oh man! Link, please?



So you're worried about Buchholz then?



Good thing he's being kept a starter vs putting him in the bullpen, then. You must be relieved.

Are any Red Sox or Yankee fans worried that Santana's numbers fell off a little this year? He had his highest ERA since he became a starter in 2002, and it was about 6/10's of a run higher than his average over the last 3 years. His WHIP was also the highest since 2003. Make no mistake, his numbers are still spectacular and his strikeout rate has held up, but is there any concern that Santana must be starting to slip, even if it's slightly? The other factor to consider is the incredible amount that Santana will get paid when he's eligible for free agency. If Zito can get $7 years and $18 million per year, Santana is going to be over $20 million for sure.

Umm.... Yes! Of course.

He did have arm fatigue.


Not that Im off the bandwagon or anything...



Doesnt really worry me. If this was fantasy baseball and I had to choose between drafting him or Sabathia or Beckett, sure. But in real life its not like there is a group of similar pitchers who are all available. Very rarely is a Santana level talent available. You go for it and then worry about dropoffs later. This is a guy who has proven his ability to be the best pitcher in the game over a significant period of time. He's not elderly, either.Besides, if he drops off to 75% of his former self he'd still be a damn good pitcher.

Overpaid, certainly, but you know going in that you have to overpay to get an Ace. It will be hard for some teams to justify the price Santana will demand in an extension(combined with the talent acquisition cost). BUT not the Yankees, Mets or BoSox. The Yanks have the money, the need, and the talent to get him, IMHO. The Mets have the talent. I dont know for sure about the money, but the terrible end to 07 might be a good motivation to spend before you lose your fans(Like Sox trade for Schill after 03).

The price will be acceptable because he gives you a pretty good honest to goodness chance at having a full blown best in the league shut the door Ace. You cant say that of many.

Well, obviously Santana is an ace, but in Boston and Ny, where one expects to get in the playoffs year in and year out, he'll have to be much better than his 1-3 post-season record with a 3.97 ERA to be worth the money he is going to get.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/santajo02.shtml

Torre's coming back, guys. If they're not doing anything until next Monday, he has to be coming back. If they were going to fire him, why wait?

From the AP (notice how Big Papi comes through for Joe, too):

NEW YORK (AP) — The New York Yankees put off their meetings on Joe Torre's future until next week.
The meetings are likely to start Monday night or Tuesday, and they probably will be held at the team's spring training complex in Tampa, Fla.
Torre will not be asked to attend the start of the session, when owner George Steinbrenner, his sons and top aides will discuss whether to bring the manager back for a 13th season — which would be the longest run for a baseball manager in New York since Joe McCarthy was in the Yankees' dugout from 1931-46.
Steinbrenner said last weekend that he didn't think the Yankees would keep Torre if the team failed to advance from its first-round series with Cleveland. New York was eliminated in four games by the Indians. the Yankees' third straight opening-round exit, but Steinbrenner has been silent on Torre's fate.
Since the Yankees' season ended Monday, New York players, politicians and even opponents have urged Steinbrenner to retain the affable 67-year-old New York native. Boston designated hitter David Ortiz was among the latest to speak out.
“ Every organization is like a human body. It has a head that if you mess with it, it just goes down,” Ortiz said. “ Joe Torre is the head of that organization. He's one of the best managers in baseball. You've got to have a good head to keep the body together like that.”
Ortiz credited Torre for helping the Yankees overcome a 21-29 start to make the playoffs as the AL wild-card team.
“ Even if they got knocked out, you've got to give him credit for that. You've definitely got to give the man respect,” Ortiz said. “ If he doesn't go back to the Yankees, they're going to feel that next year somewhere. This guy knows what he's doing.”

I'm not sure where I stand on the Mariano Rivera thing. He says that whether or not Torre stays will impact his decision on staying with the Yankees. I'm not sure if he truly means this, or if he is just posturing for George to give him a blank check. I mean if you want to stand by Joe, you have to give the unequivocal, "If he goes, I go" statement. You can say that you hope he stays, but the whole "[The decision on Torre] might do a lot [on deciding whether I come back or not]" statement does sounds like he is posturing to get George for some more cash.

I think that ERA in the postseason makes him worth it.

I wouldn't worry about his ERA being above 2.87 for the first time in four years. What I'd worry about is giving a six year, $150m contract to someone who will be 34 at the end of the deal, and has had a major injury in his career. If he were a FA I'd say go for it, but when you factor in the cost (Buchholz/Ellsbury and probably a Masterson or Bowden for the Sox, or Hughes/Cano and Austin Jackson or Tabata from NYY), I wouldn't do it.

I think he still may be gone, it's just that his firing isn't going to be George flying off the handle and doing so. There's no reason that the decision from the group couldn't be to let him go.

The Twins would *never* get Hughes and Cano in a deal from us for Santana. No starting pitcher is worth that.

Jackson: I think you're right, Torre's coming back. No reason they'd delay this if he were fired. I would have preferred a new guy in there, but I guess there's lots worse than Joe Torre. Ugh.

Agreed. I could even do Lester along with minor leaguers, but Buchholz or Ellsbury can't go if you're going to have to give him a long-term, market-priced contract as well.