I hate to be reactionary, but I think Coco is seeing his last days in Boston. One thing the front office has pointed out as reason for sticking with him was Renteria's bounce-back season once healthy (and traded). Coco is as healthy as any ballplayer is this time of year, and has had two years to adjust, and just hasn't. Jackie MacMullen (I believe) reported that certain players said that while he's a nice guy, he doesn't seem to fit in in the clubhouse and stays to himself in what seems to be a pretty close group. He just doesn't look comfortable in this environment, which is of interest because so many Cleveland guys said he'd be a great addition to our team and fit right in - he was a really great teammate in Cleveland. Where'd the mojo go?

In these playoffs, he just seems defeated when he steps in the box. He seems either trying to be aggressive (when he shouldn't), swinging on first pitches, and forcing the issue on bad pitches to try and make something happen OR trying to be patient to the point of being a submissive/passive batter. At this point, the fans have really, REALLY turned on him after seeing the spark plug that is Ellsbury (who also is the type of player this region seems to fall for).

Defensively, after a rough start last year, he has improved - and that's an understatement. But his replacement also comes with lofty defensive credentials and only seems to lack the familiarity with Fenway - a park that can make a Gold Glove CFer look like someone with two left feet (or one broken ankle, in the case of Torii Hunter). I think Ellsbury can get at least close to Crisp's defense with more experience in Fenway.

So - I think Crisp is seeing his last days as a member of the Sox and will see a nice Cozy home for him to thrive somewhere like LA, Atlanta or San Diego next year where he'll see a steadier dose of FBs. He's killing this line up whenever the pressure is on, and unlike Lugo, he has a movable contract. Thoughts?

It's too bad, because I do like the guy, but I have to agree with you.
Ellsbury proved he is ready, and while Coco played a great CF this year with the glove, his arm is just better than damonesque. At the plate, he has the worst swing in the majors and the results seem to show it.
I was willing to give him a pass in '06 because of his health problems, but now I'm convinced that what you see now is what you're going to get. The two good year he had in Cleveland must have been an abberation or something. His '07 season is practically identical to his first two years in the league. The only difference is back then he was a 23-year-old kid with a high ceiling. Not anymore.

I'm not trying to say he sucks - I just think he's having trouble thriving in Boston. Maybe it's the pressure of the town. Maybe it's that he sees more offspeed and breaking stuff than in Cleveland as a relatively new player in the league. I think in the or a lower-pressure AL town, he'll be a great weapon. Minnesota seems like a great place for him. Atlanta, San Diego and LA also. They'll also be able to better make use of his range in the OF with much more spacious CFs. If he's lower in the order in the NL, he'll get his FB, which he can hit when he knows they are coming - but right now, he has NO idea what's coming and is overthinking, rather that recognizing and reacting.

And to think, know it all alskor got all kinds of pissy at me when I dared to say that Coco's little hot streak was just that, a streak, and he would regress to his usual suck self eventually. This guy is absolutely lost at the plate, and looks like he would rather be having a vasectomy than batting. I cannot wait until they trade him, but I dread the return.

Depends on how the FA market shakes out, I think.

If someone's desperate, we trade Coco in the offseason. Otherwise I see more of a 4th OF, or Ellsbury starts the year in AAA, and Coco goes at the deadline. Just makes sense not to rush into something unless the return is good.

Crisp because of his defense and low cost will be in pretty good demand this off-season, there are a number of teams that will be looking to for a low cost CF/LF.
San Diego, Atlanta, Minnesotta, possibly Oakland, St. Louis(split time with Edmunds), Florida, Philly, San Fran (LF).


That being said, there is little doubt that it should be Ellsbury's job to lose next year.

The more important issue is whether Ellsbury should get the start over Crisp in game 6.

I agree with this to a point - if Francona is going to insist on Coco starting over Ellsbury, regardless of performance (or lack thereof), his toy needs to be taken away - and that means trading Crisp. I think there will be some teams who are looking for CFers who won't be able or willing to afford the free agents. Given that we will have some positions needing shoring up (either on the MLB club or in the minors by bolstering strength at a position), I think it can be done, and I think there will be teams willing to trade for an exception CFer who is still young, had a high ceiling, and is signed to a reasonable contract. F-ck, look what Juan Pierre got! I know, he hit FA, but I still think there will be something. And while this team may be better with him on the bench, if Ellsbury is the future and the FO sees it as sink or swim time for him - removing Crisp as an option to Francona may be worth taking a lesser return, rather than the benching or blocking of the future of the organization for a mediocre (at best) player.

As a 4th OF, Crisp would also make a good platoon partner for Ellsbury. He has better splits from the right side, and Ellsbury had lousy AAA splits against lefties. If they do choose to ride it out until the trade deadline, that might be the way to go.

Coco's the best defensive CF in baseball, and should win the Gold Glove this year.

However, with Ellsbury ready to go and being a huge offensive improvement, proper asset management is to trade Coco for someone we can regularly use...perhaps another bullpen arm, maybe part of a package for Lowell's replacement if he walks and we miss out on the A-Rod bidding.

This will probably be Tito's hardest decision to date. My gut is with new life you go with Ellsbury in Game 6. Not getting that bunt down should be the last straw. The argument is that Jacoby still doesn't know the walls and angles well yet and maybe you ride Coco out just for the glove, especially with Schilling on the mound. My guess is they stick with the glove.

Long-term though, yes he is done. Crisp and a prospect to Minny for Neshek is the one idea I have been kicking around.

I pray he's gone after the season.

As to the question of Game 6, yes, I would make the move now. Coco looked the worst yet in this last game.

Ive NEVER been a Coco fan the least bit, but I thought before would be a panic move and for every bad at bat he put together a tough at bat. He always looks like a candy ass at the plate to me, so it wasnt like he looked worse than usual in the first 4 games. Somehow he gets nearly adequate results with this ugly hacking approach. I cant understand calling for him to sit Game 5 against CC. Ellsbury against CC is just a terrible idea. Id rather have Drew and Kielty in together.

I hate to say it, because he's been a good presence on the Sox off the field, and has really brought his defensive game up a level, but I was thinking the same thing tonight: This is Coco's swan song as a starting outfielder for the Sox. There's no way around it ... he's just totally dysfunctional at the plate, and it's too much of a hit to take any more.

Good luck wherever you land, Coco.

I had high hopes for Coco when the Sox traded for him. I blamed last year's sub par performance on his wrist injury and fully believed we would see a different player this year. He has played a GG calibre CF all year, there is no debate on that point but his offensive game, save for a brief period in which he seemed to be hitting the ball very well, has deteriorated. At this point, he is so lost at the plate that he resembles the 9th batter on a little league team who goes to the plate just hoping to swing at three straight pitches to minimize the agony and get back to the bench.

It's a shame because he's got talent. He'll never replace the numbers that Damon delivered but, given his defense, he didn't really have to do that to justify a place in the starting lineup. It's just gotten to the point where he needs to move on if the Sox can finding a landing place for him. And as much as I try to resist joining the play <insert latest phenom prospect here> and bench <insert slumping veteran here> drumbeat that is ever present here, I can't see how Tito can let Ellsbury sit on Saturday night. Up until now, I've understood why he hasn't wanted to shake up the lineup just for the sake of change. Now, however, the choice seems abundantly clear. It's hard to imagine a valid argument that Crisp gives you more than Ellsbury does at this point in time.

Not that you were arguing this, but arguing Crisp gives you more than Ellsbury would mean Tito thinks he can't get anything offensively out of Ellsbury - a player he worked really hard to fit into the lineup at various positions down the stretch and who just seems to have a knack for clutch or exciting plays.

For someone who is/wants to be a lead off guy to miss those bunt attempts was critical. If Coco can't even be counted on to give himself up, there's little he can be counted on to do. It's not like he's Ortiz, who never is asked to bunt, then suddenly got the sacrifice sign - this is a guy who should be able to bunt (all fast, low-power guys should do be able to do this). Even his bunt attempts looked passive. In non-bunting situation, he took at least two PERFECT strikes in counts where he should have known a FB was coming and been aggressive.

I just feel bad for the guy - he's completely lost and we never see him so much as crack any semblance of a smile anymore. He's not having fun and he's thinking - bad for baseball players.

EDIT: Clarity

So strange....the Sox thought they were acquiring a dynamic offensive player and they had every reason to believe that from his results in Cleveland. His spring in 2006 was phenomenal; I went to many of the games and his first 5 games that season he looked exactly like the player in Cleveland. But he has just never recovered offensively from that injury for whatever reason.

His approach is tentative, and I think maybe the league developed a book on him around the same time he arrived here. Pound him with offspeed stuff away. He needs to go to the NL and pound some fastballs.

He's making this a really easy decision for Theo.

Still don't think Tito has the balls to pull him in Game 6.

I really like Coco. He had great speed and could make some amazing plays in the outfield, but his offense has been horrible. I kept hoping that at some point he would get it together, but that hasn't happened and Jacoby is ready to come up and play.

I have been thinking Crisp was gone for a while now... he's got a really tradeable contract, and I could not be more excited about the Ellsbury era. (Could we have back to back rookies of the year?)

I'd like to see the Red Sox have some power prospects come up from the minors... but for now, I will settle for dynamic, defensive minded players who can get on base. Ellsbury is one of those guys. I don't think we'll miss Crisp a bit once Ellsbury takes over CF.

I totally Agree some guys just cant play in boston ala Rentaria and Hanley Ramirez
But Heres my Question Red Sox nation
do we Give Ellsbury a shot in center
or do we go to the free agent market?
GO SOX

Oy vey...

1. I don't know why you randomly capitalize certain words and insert odd line breaks, but they both make reading your posts very difficult
2. Hanley Ramirez was a minor leaguer when he was traded. It wasn't because he couldn't play in Boston, it's because he was the franchise prospect we had to give up to get a franchise pitcher like Beckett.
3. If we don't give Ellsbury a shot in center, we're not going to the FA market. Barring injury, we will have either Coco Crisp or Jacoby Ellsbury in center next season.

Absolutely we go with Ellsbury. The worst case scenario would be keeping both in a platoon situation and stunting Ellsbury's progress. What's with the Hanley comment, he had nothing more than a cup of coffee in Boston?

I agree that Coco is likely done in Boston after this season, but disagree that he should be pulled in this series. If Ellsbury gets any starts over Coco in CF this postseason, they should not be at Fenway Park, IMO. That means we have to get to Colorado to see Ellsbury starting in CF in 2007. An extra base or two taken by an Indians baserunner due to a misplayed ball off the LF or CF wall could decide this series, and Coco has been so excellent defensively in CF that I think we can carry his bat for a few more games, particularly with flyball pitchers in Schilling and Matsuzaka being our next two scheduled starters. Coco's bat is infuriating, and I agree that it has punched his ticket out of Boston, but I don't think that this is the time for a switch for tactical reasons, not because "he's the guy who got us here."

I don't think I have ever seen a hitter at the plate with less confidence than Coco last night. He is a decent bunter and his failure to put a sacrifice in play says it all. I know he is great in the field, but Ellsbury isn't that much of a dropoff. I don't think we will see him unless there is a lefty pitching (hopefully we will see Francis next week.)

Carry his bat? From where? Youkilis, Ortiz, and Ramirez can't do it all. The 6-9 hitters have been a disaster, and Pedroia hasn't been great leading off. With Schilling and Dice-K good for giving up 4-5 runs, we will need someone who can get on base. Ellsbury doesn't guarantee that, but, from what I have seen of Crisp, I know he is not the guy. I'd rather have his speed at the top of the order and slide Pedroia down. Ellsbury can hold his own in CF.

If my memory serves me correctly, he had 2 meaningless AB's at the end of the 2005 season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6195

What a wierd and incorrect comment. You have to give up talent to get talent though, and this team would be out of the playoffs already if they had not made the trade for Beckett.

Now, if you wanted to argue that Hanley would never reach his potential here as he put up a .720 OPS in Portland in 2005 and had defensive problems (still does) and he needed motivation and playing time in an environment with less pressure, I could agree with you there. But to say he failed in Boston? Hardly.

Pedroia's been making solid contact all series, and seemed to lock in last night. That makes the 1-5 spots in the lineup pretty respectable, and with solid pitching and defense (which Coco helps), I think it may be good enough. I don't think Ellsbury is necessarily guaranteed to outproduce Coco at the plate (particularly with 1 AB in the past 3 weeks), but I think that Coco is as close to guaranteed as you can get to be a better performer in CF in Fenway Park. I think it's entirely possible that Coco correctly playing a ball off the wall that Ellsbury would misread could be the difference between Schilling and Matsuzaka giving up 4-5 runs, and 3-4 runs. I think if Ellsbury was going to get any significant ABs in this series, it would have happened in games 3 and 4, against RHP outside of Fenway.

Pedroia has been snakebitten for sure. He has hit some shots right at people. But, even still, his OBP is lacking. And even if he gets on, he's not going to steal you a base, nor is he going to walk a lot due to his aggressiveness at the plate. I'd hate to tinker with Youkilis in the 2 spot right now, so, put Pedroia 9th in case his balls in play start falling in.

If Lugo and Varitek were hitting, you could hide Crisp's bat. But his at bat trying to put down a SAC bunt (not even bunting for a hit) was pitiful. He is mired in a slump we can't afford right now. I think Ellsbury's potential at the plate, his potential to be disruptive to CLE pitching if he gets on, outweighs whatever you are giving up defensively in CF (and I think it is very slight).

Ellsbury sparked this team when Manny was out with his offense. I think we need it again. He should get the nod in Game 6.

If you drop Pedroia (which I don't understand the motive), who bats leadoff?

Presumably Ellsbury, since he's part of the equation.

If that's the case, I do not understand. Jacoby has missed plenty of time because he has been forced to sit and watch Coco undeservingly take his spot since Manny’s return. I’m all for starting Jacoby, but to bat him lead off while the Red Sox come home for two elimination games is just too much. Jacoby should take over the number 8 or 9 hole and than re-evaluate if they manage to go further.

Putting Ellsbury at leadoff is not so risky considering Pedroia's .278 playoff OBP and lack of speed when he does get on. I think the potential clearly outweighs the risk.

I'm not going to say "in his defense" - he obviously has to get the bunt down better than that. But I think sac bunt vs. bunting for a hit is the whole problem in a nutshell.

Coco is, in the first place, a decent bunter, but definitely not a great bunter. But he's far better bunting for a hit. Even when he does lay down a successful sacrifice, half the time it looks more like a failed attempt at bunting for a hit which only incidentally moves a runner along.

He squares way too late for a sac bunt (as was the case yesterday), and he pushes the ball instead of deadening it. That's great if you're trying to catch someone sleeping. Not as great when they expect it, and you're trying to advance the runner(s).

Pedroia for the regular season had an OBP of .380. This is Pedroia's first post-season ever, much like Jacoby, and you're cherry picking an extremely small SS. Pedroia has still put great contact on the ball and if a few of Pedroia's liners found holes, we would think that Pedroia batting lead off was a no-brainer. Jacoby hasn't played since Manny's return in September and is going to be rusty.

For me, speed is about 5% important when talking about the lead-off spot.

It's the playoffs, of course it is a small sample size. How many times do regular season numbers correlate (or not correlate) with what is happening in the playoffs (i.e. A-Rod).

It makes more sense to put the speedy guys who can't hit for power at the BOTTOM of the order. Let's assume the costs of stealing the base are always the same, and we'll be generous: the cost is a 20% chance of getting caught stealing, resulting in an out and the loss of the base-runner.

So when do you stand to gain the most by sending Ellsbury? When is the benefit of moving the base-runner from 1st to 2nd the greatest? When he is hitting in front of someone who puts the ball in play a lot (so that Ellsbury could use his speed to advance to third on a batted-ball out, for example), who is not particularly fast (since opening up first base avoids the double play), and who doesn't hit many home runs (because it doesn't matter where the runners are when Manny hits the ball onto the Pike).

Bat Ellsbury 9th so that he can steal and score on a single or come around all the way from first on a gapper (since those are pretty likely outcomes when Pedroia is batting). Speed is much less of a factor in front of Youk, Ortiz, and Ramirez than it is in front of Pedroia.

Oh yeah, and bench Coco against Carmona.

A-Rod has 3-seasons and multiple series to show that he isn't the best option (though I expect him to start hitting once he's out of NY). Were talking about Dustin Pedroia, a kid in his first year in the majors who has been placing solid contact all series. Last night he was on base 3 out of 5 times (2 hits one walk).

I also don't get how A-Rod "choked" this year.A-Rod

ALDS: .267/.353/.467

Mike LowellALCS: .250/.304/.450

Should we also drop Mike Lowell lower in the order?I agree 100%

The A-Rod discussion has nothing to do with Coco Crisp, but as long as we're on the favorite tangent in these parts (all A-Rod, all the time!):

1. Which is it? Not the best option, or he's ok after all? Nice job of straddling the fence!

2. I know that the general consensus among those who've looked more closely at the numbers is that "protection" in the batting order is largely a myth. But for the sake of argument, here's A-Rod in the ALDS this year:

Game 1: 0-2 with 2 BB. The two hitters after him in the Yankees' lineup went 0-8.
Game 2: 0-4 with 3 K. The three hitters after him in the Yankees' lineup went 0-10 -- and the three before him went 2-13.
Game 3: 2-4
Game 4: 2-5 with a HR

Seems to me that a) He stepped it up with the series on the line (it helps, of course, that it was Westbrook and Byrd in those games) and b) It's pretty easy to give a guy nothing to hit / not let him beat you when there is pure garbage around him.

That or the Tribe's pitchers just happened to put 3 good games together and stifle the best offense in MLB. That sort of thing will happen in a short series.

End hijack.

Bench teh Coco!!!!!11

I miss-wrote that. I meant to say that if you are in the boat that believes SSS are important in the post-season and point to A-rod, he's had 4 post-seasons (2004-2007) to give solidify your case. I actually believe this year was a decent year for him. Pedroia on the other hand is in his first post-season in his first year in the ML (and he's still scorching the ball, just at defenders).

I partially tripped myself up because I wrote the first part than looked at the numbers.

According to McAdam/Krasner, Coco will have one of the best seats in the house for game 6. JE gets the start and bats 8th.

Ellsbury to replace Coco Crisp

I'm pleased to see that he's playing and he's at the bottom of the order.

Thanks sweet jesus

Thank God.

Hallelujah!

It will be good to hear everyone cheer Jacoby rather then boo Coco tonight. I am fired up for this game.

I mean, I think this is the right move and all... but I hope everyone realizes the chances that this has an effect on the outcome of the game are very slim.

Finally, anyone?!?

Per Tito: Jacoby is starting game seven. Hopefully he starts all the World Series games too. I hope to never see Coco Crisp in a Red Sox uniform again.

That interview was great because halfway through his "yyyeaaahhh..." he realized he shouldn't have publicly announced that to spare Coco's feelings or something, so the tone was hilarious.

I still say we should have gone after Austin Kearns that year. Oh well. At least he wasn't Renteria II.

He can be as good a pinch runner as anybody. And can play in the field.

I'll compound your statement and say that I don't want to see Coco Crisp with a Sox uniform AND a bat in his hand ever again. Otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with him on the team.

Late in the game with a lead you can count on seeing Coco in the field. Not that it mattered, but I bet Coco makes the catch that Jacoby didn't.