Ok Roger....you really look bad now

NEW YORK (AP) -- Andy Pettitte used human growth hormone to recover from an elbow injury in 2002, the New York Yankees pitcher admitted two days after he was cited in the Mitchell Report.

Pettitte said he tried HGH on two occasions, stressing he did it to heal faster and not enhance his performance. He emphasized he never used steroids.


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=At4c...p&type=lgns

Finally, someone acts like a real man. He, and Mota, are the only ones I've seen show any sign of integrity after doing wrong.

Now what does the Texas Con Man do? He can't call the trainer a liar anymore.

Somewhere in heaven this man is laughing

Well that pretty much confirms that the trainer is a legit source.

Well it pretty much sells Clemens up the river and makes Pettite look much better than Rog. I'm happy he did this, it shows that he does indeed have some integrity. Making a mistake is one thing but admitting it is entirely different. I'd love to hear the call being Clemens and Pettite after Roger hears this.

I love the, "But I only did it to heal, not to enhance my performance." Hey twat face, healing faster does enhance your performance.

I agree with that- but finally, FINALLY one of these guys is a man.

I respect this greatly and am shocked at the admission.

Hell, I wouldn't even chant "Ster-oids" at him now.

Edit: Although he should have gotten a prescription, now that I think about it. He still illegally obtained HGH. I only did coke once, myself, but that was illegal, right?

Daily News pounces

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...an_growth_.html

I guess this takes some wind out of the "Mitchell was biased" crowd's sails.

Seems like Mitchell's sources might be pretty legit, after all.

EDIT - Plus, Roger is effed.

I don't like this "Two days" canard, though.

What that means is "On two separate occasions". We're not that stupid.

Barry Bonds probably only used steroids "For fifteen or twenty days" by Pettitte's spin-reasoning. I still respect the admittal.

Agreed, everyone knows a lot of players in baseball players have used steroids over the past decade and many of the stars weren't natural. Guys who can come out and say "I did it." even with the cop out of I did it only to recover, are alright in my book.

"I did it only to heal," is the new, "I didn't inhale."

Inhaling can heal you spiritually, though. It's pretty blissful, in moderation.

But your point is spot-on. It's not a valid excuse. But I still, somehow, respect that he didn't split hairs to another degree. He left room for his fans to love him, and can/should escape this. The fact that he made the statement makes me like him a lot more than I did this morning. Despite his victories over us in 200... nevermind.

I won't boo Andy Pettitte. Good for him for manning up. I hope some more players voluntarily come out of the woodwork... this is like an Amnesty Period, AFAIAC.

I've always respected Pettitte as a big game performer and he seemed like a decent enough guy. I, too, give him credit for at least admitting that Mitchell's evidence was accurate. You know, I think one result of the Mitchell Report may be a realization on the part of many players that the quickest way to put this all behind them is to admit to using. Face the charges, admit guilt and they will likely be forgiven by most fans.

It's not as if we aren't aware that PED use was widespread. We aren't shocked anymore. We want to move on as much as the players and owners do. It has to stop though. Yes there will be those who will break the rules but we can no longer abide by a MLB in which it is an acceptable practice to use PED and, on the part of management, to look the other way.

I wish they'd declare that amnesty and let everyone come out. Let us guage the severity, put our heroes in context, and "Go forth and sin no more."

(I'm very spiritual when it comes to baseball, just like Annie in Bull Durham).

Seriously, Pettitte is spinning this, but I still respect it.

The last few days have been unlike any I've experienced as a Yankee fan and I've been following the pinstripers since 1955. Up until this week, there was always a pride thing associated with being a Yankee fan. Sox fans may scoff at this but it was true. From Mantle to Bernie Williams, from Whitey Ford to Mariano Rivera, there have always been players who made me proud to root for the Yankees.

That all changed on Thursday. And it changed because of one man ... Roger Clemens. The guy that Red Sox fans have scorned for more than a decade has done to the Yankees what he did to every team that he played on in the big leagues. He made the Yankees and their fans regret that he wore their uniform. So that's one thing Yankee and Red Sox fans have in common this week. We both are finally in agreement about Roger. He's not welcome anymore in New York. Let him stay with the Astros, working on that personal services contract with the owner.

I can easily forgive Pettitte, even if his apology has some holes in it. He's a follower who put his trust in a man he idolized. We can split hairs all we want about HGH but it gives an advantage, too, by speeding up an injured athlete's recovery. If Selig wants to suspend Pettitte for two weeks to start the 2008 season, that's okay by me. It would be a good message to send other players, not to mention kids everywhere.

As for me, I'll root for the Yankees again next summer. I doubt that I'll ever follow them blindly again, at least until they get rid of Giambi. And even if Dustin Pedroia says the younger generation of players is clean, I will remain suspicious of any player who starts having a career season, even Jorge Posada.

You know, I've always admired that about Yankee fans. My longtime best friend has been a Yankee fan for 50 plus years and one of the things that always struck me was that he and other Yankee fans seemed to have an attachment to Yankee players. They really had an affection for him. I think I've shared before my experience of meeting my friend at Mickey Mantle's years back, when Mick was still alive and seeing my then mid thirty year old friend turn into a schoolboy at the sight of Mantle.

As Red Sox fans, we certainly enjoy tweaking Yankee fans and do it at every available opportunity but we all understand that this is not a Red Sox/Yankee issue. This is an MLB problem. This time, this report, proved painful for Yankee fans. The next revelation may well find Red Sox fans feeling as if someone punched us in the gut. There is no room for smugness now.

We are all in this together because in the final analysis, we are all baseball fans. We love the sport and it is an important part of us. I, for one, will not let incredibly stupid decisions by some MLB players to rob me such a wonderful sense of enjoyment.

I think FP Santangelo copped to it, too - not that anyone cares.The problem with that, though, is that even if the Commish officially declared amnesty - by announcing that anyone who used in the past will not be punished by MLB - those guys would still face the condemnation of the public. They'd be booed in rival ballparks, knocked around by the press, etc. Pettitte, for instance, despite issuing his admission of guilt, is sure to get roughed up at Fenway next year. There will be chants, t-shirts, you name it. Amnesty would mean the commissioner won't punish you. It doesn't get the public off your back.

i especially agree with the last paragraph, ned. it's the game that counts.

having to deal with the mitchell report in the offseason really sucks. if football season weren't going so well right now, i'd be pining away for spring training already.

p.s. -- i had a chance to write a story on mickey in 1984 when he was opening up a new stop&shop in pawtucket. i knew it would be a letdown and went golfing instead. i think i made the right call.

HGH helps in recovery but doesn't make you bigger and stronger. If he only took it like he stated, 2 times, who cares? How does taking it 2 times enhance his performance?

Twat face?? Classy.*



*Sorry to question an untouchable member of RSN.net with my 1st post.

Playing injury free helps more than playing injured?

If Andy Pettitte's face was what a twat looks like, then I would have made the choice long, long ago to forego such pleasures and become gay instead.

Pettitte's ahead of Bonds and Giambi, but I still don't have much admiration for a guy who, only when caught, comes out with a pretty tepid apology: "....'If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize'..." (and later says it was "perhaps" an error in judgment. I'll admire a player more who flat out says he made a mistake and apologizes. No "if," no "error in judgment," "no perhaps," etc. I'll admire said player much more if he does so before getting caught.



Why does Clemens somehow violate the sanctity of the Yankees, while Mantle's and Ford's drinking and cheating were apparently a source of pride?Personally, I've never understood the notion of being proud to root for a team. Nothing to do with the Yankees, or Sox, or anybody else, I just don't see how pride enters the picture when all we're doing is rooting for pro athletes.

Yeah I don't get how Pettitte coming out and admitting use of HGH after its been put in the Mitchell report really makes him any better then every other user in there. Its not like he came out and admitted anything before he was called out.

Jackson,

I do not deign to speak for all of Red Sox Nation. I only speak for myself.

We all want to root for our specific laundry. However, there are players that all baseball players can respect. In the modern game, I will admit to admiring Albert Pujols and, yes, Derek Jeter. But I go back a ways as you do. And one of the first players I remember watching and idealizing was the Mick. I even remember the Maypo commercials. I think you are a little bit older than I am, but, sadly, I only remember the incredibly hurt Mickey of the late 60s. However, I felt that I lived the Mick's glory years through my grandfather and my mother, who would tell me of how great he was in the 50s and early 60s. Those who are younger than we are would never believe how great a player Mantle was. It was amazing knowing that he did all that he did while being hung over for a good portion of the time. But if Mickey were playing today, you know that the steroid rumors would have followed him, for better or worse. "Who has forearms that big without juicing?" would go the refrain. It would be unfair to him but fair in the context of the game as a whole.

I too am saddened that Andy Pettitte got caught up in the race to be better, healthier, faster. To me, Pettitte was always a Yankee that everyone, including Red Sox Nation, could respect. Perhaps we will never know whether his idolization of Clemens influenced him to take HGH, but I do respect his admission today (even if it was lawyered up, he admitted using, which is a good thing).

On this site, when Rafael Palmeiro's use became clear, I wrote that it was like my childhood had ended, insofar as the harsh reality of life had intruded on something I idealized. I think the Mitchell Report has further pushed all of us into a similar adulthood with respect to the Steroid Era.

And I shed a tear for children who should have never faced the realities of adulthood so soon.

Yabbut, in the spirit of facetious oneupmanship, jackson, I had a chance to write a story about Mickey (Lolich) in 1989 when I stopped by his donut shop in Lake Orion (Michigan). He was in the back of the shop actually making donuts, and came out and talked to me for about a half hour. I got a picture of him standing under the sign outside. And he wasn't as "fat" as people (the idiot media, ferinstance) said...

Just thought I'd throw that in

EXACTLY. THANK YOU. It's AFTER you are ****ed that you admit your wrongdoing that does NOT make you any better of a man. Admitting this prior to the report = respect and move on. Admitting this after = you're a giant vag and Mitchell owns your soul. I'm sorry but "damage control" isn't very forgiving in my eyes.

OTOH though, Clemens is SCREWED! His credibility from this goes to - zero!

It really is sad. But karma needs to catch up to all these pricks.

"Cheating" as in "cheating on their wives"? Drinking, as in "legally"?

Hey, I'm proud to have an excellent doctor. I don't care if she cheats on her husband, and I already know she drinks.

I think you're doing it wrong.

From the NY Daily News, Lupica this morning:

... Dr. Maharam also says that agent Scott Boras' notion that legitimate medical doctors used to prescribe HGH for recovery from baseball injuries is ridiculous.

"No legitimate doctor in his right mind would prescribe human growth hormone for recovery," said Maharam, former president of the New York chapter of the American College of Sports Medicine, and now medical director for the New York City Marathon. "Anyone who has prescribed it should be ashamed of themselves. You use HGH for dwarfism. Or with AIDS patients. Nobody uses it in sports medicine, at least nobody in their right mind. You'd be afraid the government would come and take your license."

Then Maharam said, "Yeah, it helps you heal, but it also gives you an edge."

Lupica: Spare us the Crocodile Tears, Andy

You know, I've been thinking about Pettitte's situation a bit. I also watched the NESN DVD last night and started wondering how many of the '07 moments will be tarnished one day by leaks or positive tests for PEDs.

I've come to this conclusion: I guess I don't care about PED use so much.

If I get into judging every player, re-writing history, and looking for asterikses to place; when, exactly, do I get to enjoy the baseball being played? Sure, Bonds is scum and Clemens is a fat cowbell that screwed the Sox. But that has more to do with their personal character than the substances they used.

The line between getting an advantage and cheating is really too thin for me to judge. I guess I can only pin-point the extreme cases. Bonds clearly, clearly, sullied the game with his excessive cheating. And some AAAA fat tub-a-goo that just doesn't try to be in shape at all deserves my disgust as well.

I suppose Pettitte's fine in my book. He allegedly tried something, made a mistake, and allegedly stopped using shortly thereafter. His admission doesn't move me one way or the other. It wasn't against MLB rules at the time- so why not take a shot at it? His livelihood depends on his health- as is the case for all pro athletes. It seems it would be in their best interest to experiment with "cutting edge" medical technology.

Contined use of a banned substance is another story...

Yes, to both. Would you disagree that there's a pretty wide spectrum of behavior that falls short of being illegal (should have been a tipoff that I didn't refer to either of them as criminals, btw) yet also is nothing to be proud of?

Mantle and Ford were heavy drinkers who often played hung over. I'm not sure about Ford, but Mantle's drinking impaired not only his play on the field but also his responsibilities off the field as a father and husband. Why would anybody be proud of that? (Even Mantle wasn't, once he kicked the sauce and gained some maturity.)



If she "drinks" like I typically do, I wouldn't care, either. If she drinks like I do in Vegas, or like Mantle did, you probably should have some concerns, actually.

But I don't know why you'd be "proud" to have an excellent doctor, just like I don't know why you'd be proud to be a fan of [name your pro sports team].



No idea what that means.

Congrats on posting the single stupidest thing I've ever seen on this - or any other - board...and on your first post, too!!!

Nice job.


Edit: hint..what do you suppose the "G" stands for in HGH?

Pettitte's a phony. His statement wasn't brave or stand up. If he had made this statement a couple of years ago before being forced to, I'd have more respect for him. He didn't, so he's full of it. Yankee fans will give him a standing ovation next spring as though he saved a few kids from a burning building, and it's going to turn my stomach. But fans are stupid, and the Yankee fan base happens to have some of the very dumbest in the country.

Beyond that, I'm not going to gnash my teeth over this. It's becoming clear that they're all lying liars, but we already knew this. Most of us have been whispering about this guy or that "obviously" juicing for the last few seasons, so I'm not going to pretend I'm shocked by any single name. This isn't over, and there will be more names to come at some point. Might as well just adjust to the "new reality" and get on with it.

I actually think this is terribly significant. Compared to the denials of Bonds, Palmeiro, Clemens, et al. even saying you did it is admirable. Particularly what this admission does to Clemens with them being such good friends.

How about this for an amnesty period: they get off the hook if they are willing to talk to Mitchell in further investigations. Probably against some sort of union rule, but doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

100% agree.

Unless a player came clean prior to the reports being released, they are just doing it for the good PR of being a "stand up guy". Although for the record I could care less if a player "juiced", took greenies or did anything else to gain an advantage.

The culprits in this are MLB and the MLBPA for turning a blind eye to it all these years. If they had taken action when they first knew about it, players wouldn't have had the option of doing it and if they did there would have been a far better chance that they were caught and punished. The players were just doing what they had to do within the allowed culture.

This is a tough one for me. I was disappointed in Rodney Harrison when he got suspended for HGH. Here's a passage from his apology:

My purpose was never to gain a competitive edge. Rather, my use was solely for the purpose of accelerating the healing process of injuries I sustained while playing football. I haven't made excuses nor will I make excuses. I made a mistake and I'm very sorry for that. I understand that I'm a role model to high school to college, to young kids. I don't condone my decision, my behavior. I'm very, very embarrassed by it. I'm disappointed in myself and to any young person, any high schooler, any college athlete - I sent the wrong message with my actions. And I would ask and I would want to be the example for them to never jeopardize what they believe in and never jeopardize their health. And they always have to love themselves.

Now, these are just words and it's hard to get into the heart and minds of Pettite and Harrison. Both explanations fall short. But it certainly seems as if Rodney actually believed he did something wrong and Pettite almost seemed as if he tried to justify his mistake.

As for Roger Clemens, sometimes the most arrogant take the biggest falls. I don't care if he does get into the HOF. History will judge him for this.

One difference, quite clearly, is that he says he made a mistake. No if, no perhaps, no so-called error in judgment.

But the only thing I care at all about w/regard to Harrison's statement is that he directly addresses kids. I don't think that players have a duty to be good role models (other than to their own kids, relatives, etc.), but for whatever it proves to be worth, I like that he addressed those he influences who might consider using themselves.

You know what I really hate about him though? How he spells his name with an "E" on the end most of the time... but then not in this thread.


What a phony.

I agree with the points you raise here.

Didn't he deny he used any PED's a year ago-but now he admits it because he is caught and he's a stand up guy? Is he lying now about how often he used them like he was lying last year when he said he never did? Who knows and at this point I am almost beyond caring.

I don't think Harrison is any better-although I don't know if he ever denied using them before he was caught-he still used them-and didn't come clean until he was caught as well-I don't see a big difference here. I have forgiven him for his mistake but I will never feel the same about him-I was truly shocked when his name came out.

This isn't a court of law and I don't have to give the presumption of innocence to any of them.

This past year has been hard for me as a sports fan-and I am either going to have to adjust to the "new reality" or I am not going to be able to follow sports anymore-I am that disgusted by it all.

Biased? No. Incomplete? Most definitely.Does Andy deserve equal blame/criticism as everyone else that used? Absolutely.Does Andy deserve some kudos for being one of the few to admit what he did. Absolutely.Admitting and apologizing doesn't excuse what he did, but I think there is something to owning up to mistakes (and I agree he wouldn't have had this report not been released, but he also could have denied it as others did or not comment) and moving on from them. He cheated. The reasons for it don't matter.

Kudos? The bar is being set pretty low. Who knows? In this case, he may actually be pleading out to a lesser crime. He needed to do something at the risk of being lumped in with Roger Clemens by association and that association is a very close one. I don't want to intimate that Pettite did steroids. I hope he didn't. It just wouldn't be a surprise to anyone if he did.

as time goes on, the legend of mantle and ford seems to indicate they were drinking every night, between innings, etc. truth is, they went on drinking escapades the way some of us did in our college years. they didn't get drunk every night, otherwise they wouldn't have succeeded as often as they did. but the stories keep getting embellished over the years to the point where new generations of sports fans think they were drunk all the time. babe ruth, jimmy foxx and other legends of the past also fit into this category for older guys like me.

as for pride in being a fan of a team, that's just a matter of perspective. i believe there's a lot of pride in being a fan of the patriots right now. celtics' pride seems to be returning, too. winning teams make people feel good about their city, their region, perhaps even about themselves.

i take pride in some of the yankees but not all of them, probably not even a majority of them. and the list got a little shorter last week. but that's just me. to each his own when it comes to our vicarious participation in the lives of others.

Well if he denied it, it's basically a matter of he said/she said. There were no checks or invoices in the report. He would have nothing to lose by simply staying silent or denying it. Because of that close association, he actually would have been better off not saying anything as this pretty much puts the screws to Roger and I'm guessing that sometime between Andy's confession and now there was a not-so-friendly conversation between the two because this makes Roger's denial look like rubbish.

Exactly what I pictured. I think Pettittittitte probably was conned by the Con Man into trying HGH, then thought better of it and stopped after two days, hoping the whole thing would just go away. Clemens may have told him to keep quiet. When he was named in the Mitchell Report, he felt an obligation to come clean (as clean as he could). That obligation was more important to him than his loyalty to Roger.

The conversation might have gone like this:

Andy: Hey Rog.
Rog: Hey, Andy! How's it going?
Andy: Not good, Rog. You see that list of names?
Rog: Yeah?
Andy: Well, I'm on it.
Rog: Well, you used the stuff. Got a good lawyer? Let me give you a phone number...
Andy: Rog, you talked me into it. I never wanted to cheat.
Rog: Doesn't matter now, does it?
Andy: I need to make things right.
Rog: You need to keep your mouth shut, like we agreed.
Andy: Rog, I can't do that anymore.
Rog: Don't do this, Andy. Here's that phone number...
Andy: I'm writing up a statement now. I'd like to read it to you.
Rog: Shove it up your a%%, you ungrateful SOB.

I do think AP deserves some credit. People here are eager to rip him for speaking up only after he was caught. But I think almost anyone involved in a regrettable event like this would have done the same thing -- stay quiet, hope it never comes out, hope that you're not named publicly.


It would be a surprise to me if Pettitte used steroids. Absolutely.

Jayson Stark apologizes for another one.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stor...&id=3157202

I think that's why maybe I will give some respect to Pettitte for his admission and explanation. He's obviously friendly with Clemens and there was a personal cost to him in that this could impact his relationship with Clemens. So, there was something to lose here. I guess that if you look at it in that light, Pettitte gets less than a pass but some sense of understanding from the fans. I don't think Yankees fans got hurt on this one or the Yankees franchise. This one is on Clemens. As for Theo Epstein, he needs to be accountable here too for his decision to deal for someone his own scouts believed was a juicer. Does that make him any different than just about all other GMs in baseball? Probably not. He got what he deserved in Gagne. The Brewers will certainly get what they deserved in Gagne.If Stark compared the two's statements (I posted Harrison's above), he would see why Harrison was afforded more leeway. But screw Stark!!!! Harrison got away with nothing and was suspended without pay and let down his teammates. At least, he paid a price. Pettitte did not.

The only part that of your post that I disagree with is blaming Clemens for "conning" him into using it. I think it's just as likely that Pettitte knew what Clemens was doing and went to him for help getting it.

Either way though, I agree that he does deserve some credit for coming clean and I think the NY on his hat is the main reason most people here want to bury him instead of forgive him.

No, this one's on Pettitte. In the context of being close with Clemens, in the context of the overall climate/culture in baseball, in the context of plenty of things, there's reason not to go overboard in accusing him of being a fraud or a cheat or anything else. Maybe we hand out free passes on this whole thing, given that baseball was doing nothing to clean up the sport for a long time. But you can't just say it's all Roger's fault, and Pettitte was in no way complicit in his own HGH use.



Why? People keep saying this, and I don't understand it. At all.

There was no, "Eric Gagne has tested positive for steroids." There was no, "We have it on good authority from a former teammate that Gagne uses steroids."

There was only, "We suspect that he might." How many players fit that bill? 100? 300? You can't make decisions based on uncorroborated suspicions. And in the meantime, guys you wouldn't suspect in 100 years (Paul Byrd?) are every bit as guilty. You go on what you know, first. What you can reasonably predict, second. "Where there's smoke there's fire" maybe third -- but a scout guessing that a player might use PEDs doesn't even qualify as that.

Never said every night, between innings, etc. They drank a lot. Just like, yes, a lot of people in college drink a lot. I wouldn't suggest that a drunken college kid is worthy of admiration, though.

Mantle's alcohol probably did affect his play, and it affected his responsibilities as a husband and as a parent. If you want to deny that as mere embellishment, go ahead, but he said as much himself. If his words aren't enough, perhaps the widespread reporting of liver damage due in part to his drinking will convince you. Or not...



It is a matter of perspective, I suppose. I'm a huge Pats fan, and I'm enjoying the Celts' resurgence, as I was a big fan growing up during the Bird era. None of that translates into pride, though. I've always thought of pride as relating to one's own actions and intent, or that of the people we love -- not strangers.

If following a winning team makes people feel good about themselves, I suppose that's better than the alternative, but it's also a little sad, don't you think?



That says it all, I suppose.

No kidding.