So it appears that despite BBtB's shouting down of anyone who even made mention of this possibility, the Yankees will be putting Joba in the bullpen, unless someone from the Pettitte/Wang/Hughes/Kennedy/Mussina rotation gets injured this Spring.



So shockingly, someone making a guarantee was wrong. I wonder if he is planning to hang with Anthony Smith for the holidays?

---

Anyways, thoughts? The Yankees bullpen is weak and thin outside of Rivera, so it seems logical. I just find it humorous that BBtB's shouting down of anyone who alleged that this was a possibility (I believe Tommy, as usual, took the brunt of it) has no been rendered moot.

I am sorry but this is not what Hank Steinbrener said and if there's anything we've learned early on in his tenure it's that he sticks by his guns, right?

Wow, and I was told that I knew nothing about baseball for suggesting that Joba be used as the set up to Rivera. Joba / Rivera should give them an end of the bullpen that is comparable to Rivera / Wetteland. Scary.



And Steinbrenner has got to ne the laughing stock of the MLB. has he stuck by his word at least one time yet ?

Let's hope the Johan Santana trade becomes a symbolic first.

I don't know. Has Boras signed Joba to replace A-Rod?

Rivera was un-Rivera like last year, he is going to get older and just signed his deal, I guess I am more worried about Joba then him, but that is still a good 1-2 punch.

It is going to be tough, I assume to go from bullpen arm to stretched out starter in mid season.

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/baseball...y_thoughts.html


You're trying way too hard, Cas.

First, I've never shouted down the possibility that the organization might try to make Joba a reliver, only the intelligence behind that move should it occur. Second, the article states that this would be a means of limiting Joba's innings in the majors, which is something that will need to be done. I don't see where it says they've decided to make Chamberlain a reliever and groom him to take over for Mo. If he has an innings cap of around 150, odds are he'll have to go into the pen at some point, whether in the begining of the season or the end. The second half would make more sense than doing it in the first, but we'll see whether Olney is right, I'm betting he's not. Third, I couldn't be happier that you're finding more and more common baseball ground with Tommy and DCA.

If you swung any harder and missed at this, you'd look like Shelley Duncan.

I agree, which is why I think if Joba does go to the pen it will be similar to last season where he started in the beginning then ended up in the pen. I think it would be much harder to do it in reverse.

FWIW, Newsday is refuting that Joba will go to the pen.



http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/baseball...y_thoughts.html

This insult is like Corky calling somebody a retard. Your baseball knowledge is minimal at best. All you do is instigate fights, get your ass handed to you, then proclaim victory evn though it is obvious to everyone that you lost. How's that working out for you ?

I often wonder why you spend time on another board personally insulting the members of this board, most notably about our sexuality, then spend so much time here, with the people who's sexuality you question. Wishful thinking maybe ?

This whole thread is just a lame attempt at Barry-baiting on a day when most of us are Christmas shopping. Buster has to fulfill his column obligations so he does some speculating. Newsday responds. Caspir thinks Buster's making BBtB look bad. Give me a break.

that's right....B3 is doing a fine job all by himself....

Does this go next to all the "sources close to the Twins and Red Sox say that a trade will go down in a matter of days"? I wouldn't be surprised to see Joba start or finish the year in the BP, but if that is what they are indeed considering, they aren't looking to make it a permanent move. Starting Joba in the pen early in the year does two things. First, it keeps a limit on Joba’s IP when they have three kids to worry about and second, it gives their weak BP a temporary boost until they decide if they have any internal options who can step in or a trade has to be made at the dead-line (which is when Joba gets slid back into the rotation).

So now, we have to think about how Barry will react before we post something on this board ? No disrespect to you at all Jackson because you provide an intelligent view from the other side but any "slap" that Barry gets, Barry deserves. Caspir merely mentions his name and Barry overreacts, bringing me and Tommy into this for no reason.

A while back, some posters brought this up as being an option for the Yankees. Instead of disagreeing and making his opinion known in a way that could be intelligently debated, (like you probably would have), Barry decides to be condescending and insulting, A case could be made that he does much more baiting than any other poster here.

My wife says I don't try hard enough. Weird.



I recall you calling out individual posters for suggesting this. While I agree that sending a good SP to the pen is a bad move, I recall you shouting people down for suggesting it may happen. If not then my bad.




Full disclosure, I think the babying of pitchers in this era is actually creating more problems than it solves. I think the +30 per year innings rule is dumb, and that a good SP can handle 50 extra innings per year. Now, I'm not paid to give my opinions (Or hell, I wouldn't be here posting), but it's a feeling that some of the more old school pitchers share. Prospects are babied nowadays, and IMO, it can cause more harm than good. I can see not making the jump from 100 innings to 200, but to add 50 or so innings should not be an issue, unless the pitcher has an injury history. Weight concerns aside, Joba is healthy.



Olney says yes, Newsday says no. Obviously we can; debate this all off season, but I guess the best approach is wait and see. If you asked me to take a guess, Joba is in the pen, and it's not all that bad. There's a lot going on with the Yankees pitching staff. Discounting Santana (who I'm not convinced will be traded, FWIW), the Yankees are looking at Moose/Pettitte/Hughes/Wang/Kennedy and the corpse of Kei Igawa, with little help for Mariano, who is no longer the lock down lights out closer he once was, although (again IMO) still elite. Joba adds a significant arm in the pen. It would help the Yankees in the short term, who knows long term. Maybe he is the new Papelbon, I don't know. But I don't see him in the pen as a terrible decision.



Please. I'm the Adam Dunn of this shit. Barry Bonds or Bobby Bonds, depending on the day. I blame my daughter.



Hey dumbass. I get along with BBtB just fine. In fact, I rather enjoy his presence. So maybe you should try talking about something you know about, like say, some story about how Ed Figueroa liked to ride horses when he was younger, and how the game was more pure then, and how Andy Pettitte isn't really a steroid user, because he loves Jesus. You fail at debating me.

Caspir, as I said during the season, I think that there is a good possibility that Joba will spend considerable time in the bullpen. First of all, as a starter, he would be on a innings and pitch limit, as all pitchers of his age should be to lower the risk of major arm injury. Second, as the team is presently constituted, the Yankees simply do not have anyone nearly as capable to deliver the game from the starters to Rivera. I've always felt that once Joe Girardi gets his own first hand taste of Kyle Farnsworth and LaTroy Hawkins, the red flags will go up soon thereafter. Beyond this, the Yankees already have Wang, Pettitte, Hughes, Mussina, and Kennedy, with Igawa around as well. The Yankees have enough starting pitchers.

As for the debates with BBTB, anyone who kept track of how things ultimately played out knows the score. In the spirit of the Christmas season, I will not even attempt to cause the least bit of acrimony in this thread, and I wish everyone, BBTB included, Holiday Greetings and a Happy and Healthy 2008.

pettitte admitted to using HGH. boras is still a-rod's agent, despite the dumb-ass conclusion you jumped to after getting your daily variety update the other day. starting a new thread and getting your facts wrong ... that's a good one.

happy holidays to all.

Well, just to get one thing straight... the chances of Joba entering the rotation at the beginning of the season and making 30 healthy starts is essentially zero...

It certainly makes sense to start him in the pen...

I could be wrong about this, but I thought BBtB was the Yankee representative in the RSN.net "Chinese Food and a Movie on Christmas" caucus. If not, our ZOG overlords let in a mole.

I don't think it makes sense to start him in the bullpen. I'd rather he start the season stretched out and using all his pitches than having to suddenly do that come June or July.

Caspir: my sincerest apologies for comparing your posts to Tommy and DCA. That wasn't very Christmassy of me.

Man, that was great. Just had to chime that in.

Leave him in the pen. Anytime Torre left him in over 3 outs he struggled. His arm is fragile and so is his ability for the Yankees. Let him continue being the set up man until he can take over for Mo some day.

Turns out (to the surprise of few) Olney got it wrong. Per NY Sportsnight last night, Joba is reporting to Tampa early to prepare to start this year.

He is a local kid (from Nebraska) and there was an article in last night's Sports section. He was interviewed and discussed the fact that he would be starting. I can't find a link, but it was clear as he discussed how expectations, performance and preparation would be different for the starting rotation.

Personally, I think it is a huge mistake. I think he would serve the Yanks better in the pen. (Please spare me all of the analysis and discussion of the benefits of a starter versus a reliever. I have heard and read it all before and I don't need it again.)

I think the bullpen is a place for pitchers who don't have the stuff to be a starter. Mariano didn't have the stuff to be a starter, he ended up as a closer. If he turns out to be the kind of pitcher they think then having him as a middle reliever is a colossal waste of talent and if he doesn't pan out as a starter, the Yanks can always put him back in that set-up role. Moving him to starter is not an irrevocable move.

Link

Calm down, Cas. Here's Cashman's quote in full:



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball..._i.html?ref=rss

So all he's saying is Joba's a starter, they need to cap his inning, and this could be accomplished any number of ways.

Works for me.

Here's what I worry about, Barry. Girardi was the catcher in 1996 when Rivera served as the setup guy to Wetteland. Mo pitched 120 innings that season, often hurling two innings to get to Wetteland. My worry is that Girardi will rely on that happy memory and stick with Joba in the pen for the entire season, especially if the pennant race and Joba's success demand it. The wear and tear certainly didn't harm Rivera's career. But his success in 1996 dictated his move to closer, same way as Papelbon's success a decade later as Boston's closer dictated he remain in that role.

I have no opinion either way on who is more valuable -- a great closer or a great starter. The only way we would find out, I guess, if if Papelbon switched to a starting role. Boston thought about it last spring, as we all recall. I know my gut reaction when he volunteered to go back was unprintable.

Mo was moved to the pen because he failed as a starter and didn't have the secondary stuff to make it in the rotation. Papelbon's shoulder and secondary stuff led to the same move. The two really aren't analogous to Chamberlain. At least not yet, anyway. He could be a disaster as a starter and/or blow out something.

I doubt any memories Girardi has of 1996 will have any bearing on how he deals with personnel in 2008. Girardi seems like a smart baseball guy, so I'm sure he understands the value of a starter vs. a reliever. If nothing else, we know Cashman does and he probably gets final say on Chamberlain's role.

Caspir, Bronxie told you to calm down, but I didn't notice that you were showing any emotion, rather just posting a story that was topical.

In any event, as a long-time veteran of these threads, let me tell you my thinking. First, you put your prediction out there and Bronx puts his out there. Next, you have to wait the requisite amount of time to see what happens. During the season, however, it's a little easier to pass the time, because you can provide updates on how well your prediction is doing. At the end of the time period, you come back and post the results. And if you keep a tally, it's amazing just how poor Bronxie's track record is for someone so generally arrogant and condescending.

I'm with you on this one, Caspir. I think Chamberlain is going back to the bullpen for 2 reasons. First, he's gotta be on an innings limit anyway. Second, LaTroy Hawkins, Brian Bruney, and Kyle Farnsworth aren't the answer, and they desperately need him to bridge the game to Mariano.

Time will tell who's right. As always, if (and when) Bronx is right, I'll be the first one to admit it.

You may want to re-read the link Caspir provided. The artcle does not state, as you appear to be, wasting Joba's arm for the entire 2008 season in middle relief. Rather, it states that he may spend SOME TIME in the pen because of his innings cap.

If the Yanks were going to waste Joba in the pen, I'd rather they offer him to Minnesota for Santana. A good starter is much more valuable than a stud middle reliever.

There are problems related to logistically doing that. Stretching out a pitcher to start takes time. If Joba starts the year in the pen that necessitates sending him to the minors or perhaps a DL stint "rest" in order to give him a couple weeks to get ready for starting. Now, if youre in a pennant race, and in said pennant race Joba is your second most effective reliever... well, its a bitter pill to swallow to pull him from usage for two weeks in order to stretch him out. In addition, somebody is taking the ball every fifth day instead of him, and its certainly possible that player is doing enough to not require being pulled from the rotation.

Its possible, though very unlikely that he could be stretched out by scheduling 3 inning and progressively longer bullpen stints... BUT that is straddling the threshold of what's best for the player vs. sacrificing the team's best chances to win. In the glare of a NY summer its a stretch to imagine Girardi leaving him on the bench when he needs a bridge to Mo in a big game. Conversely, if Phil Hughes is pitching a gem and you schedule Joba that day for a relief stint... well, Joe pulls Phil, Joba blows game and the back pages go for the throat.

Another possibility is that you move Joba to the pen during the season after beginning the year with him in the starting rotation. Now, the problem here is that the above applies if you want to move him back to the rotation at any point. The advantage is he can jump right into the pen and you dont lose usage of him for a couple weeks.

A third way would be to treat him with kid gloves the way Verlander was treated in his rookie season or perhaps the way Clay will be treated this year. Rest him as much as possible, in Clay's case put him in AAA where you can more easily monitor his innings and pitch counts without detriment to the big league club.


If I was a Yankee fan I would really have liked to have seen them sign a serviceable/crappy starting pitcher in order to protect the young kids and as a hedge against any problems. Anybody half decent wants a multiyear deal, I realize, but if you could sign some scrub and use him as your #5 in April(lots of rainouts and days off) and maybe to start May, well that might be enough of a bridge to get the kids over the hump. I guess maybe that scrub is Igawa.

This is my only concern should he start the season in the pen. If he continues being effective in that role, I would imagine the temptation to keep him as a set up man would be great. I'm hoping the organization takes a longer view than that, and they keep insisting that they are, but it is absolutely a concern should he start the season in the pen. For me, anyway.

As for the rest, someone is going to be taking the ball every fifth day for Joba at some point regardless of what happens this season. He's on an innings cap, so some way, some how they're gonna have to fill that hole. And of course there's always the possibility that he'll suck as a SP.



We have plenty of scrubs to shove into the 5th spot in the rotation. No need to go out and pay some whole new scrub to give us what Iqawa/Karstens/God only knows will.

The good news is I believe Kennedy can go 200 IP, and Hughes close to that. I certainly hope they can because it would mean they weren't injured and they're pitching reasonably well.

It is going to be tricky, but to do as Tommy suggested would make things worse because that only pushes this back until 2009 stretching him to the eventual 200 innings. Even if he's doing well in the pen which I'm sure he is, I send him down to prepare to be a starter. I am always more concerned about innings 1-7 than I am of just the 8th inning.

i'd be in favor of joba spending the entire season as mo's setup man if that's how things work out. there's so much back-and-forth in this kind of decision, as boston fans understand with the papelbon precedent. if it comes down to this is where the 2008 yankees need joba the most, then put him in the bullpen for a year. get him his 100 innings, keep some of the joba rules around.

cashman and girardi can sell it to joba as a "team" situation. he seems like a good kid who just wants to help the team. it won't be a tough sell.

then you have a rotation of wang, pettitte, hughes, moose and kennedy. two kids and three veterans. and a deep bullpen for the days when pettitte and moose are pitching. the yanks may still come up with a veteran starter, especially if matsui is being quietly shopped around. i wouldn't count out karstens either. he's our version of david pauley, a triple-a pitcher who will eventually mature into a big league starter for somebody.

The problem with this is that this puts him in the same spot in 2009 as he is going into this year, if not worse as his innings level would likely be lower. If he spends the entire year in the pen, then they may as well make the decision to keep him there permanently.

if joba would have the same type of career as setup man and closer as rivera has had, i think that would be nothing to sneeze at. the yanks will need a closer in three years, perhaps sooner. how often does someone like mo or papelbon come around?

there's no answer to this discussion, CT. even red sox fans could argue that a starting five of beckett, papelbon, dice-k, schilling and lester/buchholz might overpower the rest of baseball in 2008. but boston seems to have made its commitment to pap as closer. i don't think anyone regrets it.

it's a win-win for boston and for the yankees (if joba sustains what he showed us in 2007).

It wouldn't be the end of the world. But I am of the opinion that I would rather have a very good starter than a stud middle-reliever. Some like comparing Joba to Papelbon, but I think Mariano Rivera is a better comparison. Mariano was brought along as a starter, however he didn't have enough pitches to be a very good starter, so they first put him in the set-up role to Wetteland and then of course closer. Papelbon is a closer now for one prominent reason, there isn't the strong need in the rotation. The Yanks rotation right now even with Joba is questionable. I know I am in the far minority, but if putting Joba and Hughes in the rotation costs us the playoffs in 2008, so be it. But I don't think it would come down to that. And I think Joba's ceiling is such that to make him a permanent relief pitcher would be under-utilizing his skill.

A good SP is much more valuable than Mo or Papelbon.

a great starting pitcher is more valuable than Rivera or Papelbon. not so sure i would have said David Cone or Pettitte were more important to the Yanks than Rivera in 1998-99. but it's an interesting question. pettitte or rivera. who was more valuable back in the glory years? that's like Patriots fans asking ... brady or moss? who means more to the offense?

Just because Rivera was absolutely dominant in his role doesn't mean his role takes on greater importance than a starting pitcher. I'd still take a *good* SP over a dominant closer if I had to choose.

None of this is meant to downplay or take away Mo's greatness, just to show you how much I value SP. A closer is pretty useless without a lead come the 9th.

As we are discussing this, Will Carrol just weighed in in a BP chat:



http://www.baseballprospectus.com/chat/cha...=1200338315#new

Thats what Im thinking too, but it sure seems like youre losing Joba as a starter for the playoffs that way. I cant imagine thats optimal.

That made more sense to me too, but I guess that's the idea behind having him start the season in the pen (if it happens) - he's available to start in the playoffs. Here's hoping he's an impact player enough that whichever end of the season he's moved out of the rotation, it hurts.

I completely agree with BBtB here. I think that NYY & Boston fans often overvalue the importance of a great closer b/c we both have a great closer (and enjoy them) and b/c both teams are rich enough not to have to worry about not throwing quality starters out there. If we couldn't afford decent starting pitching we'd be MUCH more likely to want our best pitchers to be the starters.

Not sure I buy this as only a NYY & BoSox thing. For one, I saw the results we had for years without a good closer. For another, it was the Phillies last year that, despite being very short on starters, still moved Myers to the closers role and it paid off.

I also don't agree that the approach the Yanks are making with Joba is best for them/him. I agree, they need to start the year with Mussina in the 5th starter role to limit Joba's annual innings, but wouldn't he be better served spending the first half in the minors, as a starter, on a pitch count, where he could work on his 3rd/4th pitches? Why keep him in the pen where he will face both pressure and the probability of only getting to use his fastball/slider. If they want to move him to a long-term starter they should do it intelligently, but this is NY. If they didn't have him available and they blew a few leads in the 8th in April/May, the fans would crucify them.

From Cashman's mouth, Joba to the pen.

So as they've been saying all off-season, in order to limit his innings, the Yankees will have Joba in the pen for part of the season.

You keep posting the same story over and over again, Cas.

P.S. I don't see any direct quotes from Cashman there. I bet Hat Guy's version of "Brian Cashman announced" means "all the same stuff everyone else has read, I'm going to report as news."

Edit - I should add that while I'll take the club at its word that this is just a means to limit Joba's innings, I'm still worried that the temptation to keep him in the pen should he excel there might prove too great. If they do, it's a dumb, dumb move on their part. And I'd believe that even if every other option in the pen Farnsworth-sucked. You don't take a talent like Joba and relegate him to reliever at this stage in his career. You give him every opportunity to fail as a starter first.

Cashman says Joba's role has not been decided yet.



http://yankees.lhblogs.com/

Thanks for straightening that one out, NH. Nothing's written in stone in February. Just a lot of speculation going around. I'll be happy if Moose has one solid season left in his gas tank. If Moose is solid, we're not desperate by any stretch because we pretty much know what Wang and Pettitte can do. That takes pressure off the kids, and pressure off the Yankees as they try to balance workloads for the kids this summer.

And then you get this:

General manager Brian Cashman said Friday that Joba Chamberlain is preparing as though he'll be a starter this season.
"All I've continued to say this winter is that he's a starter, we look at him as a starter and we're going to prepare him as a starter this spring," Cashman said. However, Cashman indicated that Chamberlain will be on a strict innings count and may not be able to remain in the rotation all season because of it, suggesting that he may see time in the bullpen at some point.

This was my point - I bet Hat Man was full of shit. There probably any form of official announcement. Dipshit probably needed fodder for a column and decided pieced-together stories from other writers constituted an "announcement."