This just posted on boston.com:

Breaking News 12:48 PM

Schilling may not be ready for spring

Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling is not expected to be ready for the start of spring training because of shoulder issues, much like the ones that caused the club to shut him down for seven weeks last season, according to sources.



Something about "you can never have too much pitching...". That extra starter may come in handy.

This is definitely not what I wanted to hear today. Wow, what bad timing for this to happen, a week before the spring report day for pitchers.

Here's an update, posted in the last five minutes:

Gordon Edes and Nick Cafardo - Schilling sidelined with more shoulder issues; Sox pitcher not expected to be ready for start of spring training

Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling is not expected to be ready for the start of spring training because of shoulder issues, much like the ones that caused the club to shut him down for seven weeks last season, according to sources. His availability for Opening Day could also be in question, though one source familiar with Schilling's condition said it was premature to speculate.

more stories like thisDetails remain sketchy, but Schilling recently went to see Dr. Craig Morgan, the doctor who performed his shoulder surgery in 1995. Morgan, citing HIPPA regulations, referred all questions to Schilling, who has not yet responded to e-mails sent to him and his publicist seeking confirmation. Red Sox GM Theo Epstein e-mailed a "no comment" when asked about Schilling's condition.

Why do I have this awful feeling they may bring David Wells back

Just posted at the Herald:

Schilling Issue Serious

Roughly a week before pitchers and catchers are due to report to spring training, the Herald has learned today that right-hander Curt Schilling has a significant shoulder injury that could end the veteran right-hander’s season and is causing tension and friction between the player and club.

While neither Schilling nor Sox officials could be reached for comment, baseball sources have indicated that the club has at least inquired about the possibility of voiding the one-year, $8 million contract Schilling signed last November. It is not known to what lengths the Sox have gone on the matter, but their threat has been serious enough to create a conflict between Schilling and the Red Sox.

While the precise nature of Schilling’s injury is not known, it is believed that the right-hander is suffering from an injury to the rotator cuff and/or labrum that might require surgery. It is possible that the sides disagree on how to treat Schilling’s ailment and that a course of treatment, too, is a part of their disagreement.

If Schilling has surgery on his shoulder, it is almost certain that he would be unable to pitch this season.

Presumably, Schilling underwent a physical exam when the Red Sox signed him to his guaranteed contract in November. It is unclear whether Schilling’s current problem was overlooked at the time or if he suffered the injury at a later date.

Obviously, stay tuned as this is a developing story.

Here's to pitching depth!

I wonder how the possibility of Schilling missing the season impacts how Buch is treated during Spring Training. Given that the FO wanted to keep Buch's innings this season to 180, I wonder if that means less work in ST, or something else, like more work for JT.

Rotoworld just posted this:

The Boston Herald reports that Curt Schilling may need surgery for what's likely either a rotator cuff or labrum injury.
Schilling is done after this year, so we don't see why he'd undergo surgery. Unless he's reconsidering and wants to extend his career beyond 2008, then he'll have to try to pitch through the problem. According to the Herald, the Red Sox are already exploring the possibility of voiding Schilling's contract. They could decide to make a run at Kyle Lohse or take a flier on Bartolo Colon or Freddy Garcia if they don't think Schilling will make it back.

I'm guessing Twins GM Bill Smith is under a suicide watch right now. Had he held out a week longer, it is very possible that he would have gotten the package he wanted from the Sox.

This isn't good news but the Sox do have the luxury of having Buchholz and Lester to plug in to the rotation.

Meh, so be it. Should this be true and Curt is out for a while, signing Kyle Lohse may not be a bad idea.

But, regardless, looks like Clay is going right into the rotation.

I'm not surprised or worried. I was surprised when we gave him another year.

I honestly wasn't expecting much from his this year anyway.

So, who's ready for a healthy dose of Julian Tavarez starts this season? Between Beckett's occasional finger problems, Buchholz's innings ceiling, the usual questions about innings pitcher for a young arm like Lester, and Wakefield's shoulder issues, I don't think our #6 guy on the depth chart is going to suffer from any lack of opportunities for starts as the season goes along.

Yeah, shocker. The 40+ year old, overweight pitcher who showed up out of shape last spring training and missed significant time last season is hurt again. Wow, who could've seen this coming?

So this leaves us with Josh Beckett, Dice-K, Jon Lester, Clay Bucholz, and Tim Wakefield? That's really not to shabby, especially with the high octane offense and plus-defense lining up behind them.

They are not turning Buchholz loose for the season because of monitoring his IP, and they need more depth than Tavarez now.

Two decent options:

*Sign the best available SP for one year (Lohse?) and KEEP Coco, and maximize this versatility for late-inning defense, etc..
*Be thankful we kept Coco, and package him with some prospects for Blanton, who is still available. We were going to need another starter after 2008 anyway, assuming Schill and Wakefield were done then. Just moving the plan up a year.

Thank God we still have Coco and Tavarez, if not for useful pieces than as trading chips to deal with this.

Maybe the Red Sox can swoop down in an eleventh-hour deal and get the Orioles to go against their vow to not trade within the division -- trade for Eric Bedard and save the Mariners' GM from an awful mistake that won't save his job or get any more wins for an already mediocre team that doesn't deserve a Bedard level talent.

Wishful thinking....

We have Beckett, DiceK, Lester, Buchholz, Wakefield, and Tavarez. That to me is good enough to open the season...

Have Schilling skip the first couple of months and let the kids pitch. When he gets back, option Buchholz to AAA and limit his innings. The Red Sox don't need to "make a package for Blaton" or "sign the best SP FA (Lohse)".

If Schilling's shoulder is more severe than that, than I might be more inclined to get help. But than again, if Masterson starts the year in AAA and is lights out, he could be another option.

We dont have enough starting pitching anymore, IMHO.

You cant let the two kids start the season in the rotation and lets them go all year. If forced we could give them Verlander style breaks where they get two starts skipped a couple times and pushed back liberally. I still dont like it.

This is kind of a big hit. Thank god the Yanks havent improved or we might be in a little bit of trouble.

No Kyle Lohse. Absolutely not.

Hey, why dont we trade for Johan Santana!

That hurts but its not the end of the world. I didn't expect all that much from his this season anyways. Hopefully we find out soon how long he will be out exactly.

Bartolo Colon is still out there and would probably be cheap. Although I don't know if he's any better than Tavarez at this point. And hey Clemens is still available

Looking at the free agent tracker, here is who's still available:

Bartolo Colon
Kris Benson
Tony Armas
Shawn Chacon
Josh Fogg
Freddy Garcia
Livan Hernandez
BK Kim
Kyle Lohse
Rodrigo Lopez
Eric Milton
Russ Ortiz
Odalis Perez
Jeff Weaver
David Wells

I vote Livan Hernandez, I've always liked him as an innings eater even if he's not that good.

Colon has thrown about 150 (terrible) innings over the past two seasons, and with his physical condition, I'd be surprised if he ever returned to being an effective pitcher. He might be worth bringing to camp as a low risk high reward type signing but you wouldn't be able to count on anything from him.

Benson missed last season with shoulder surgery, so who knows what he will be able to give to whoever signs him.

Armas was so bad last year that he bounced back and forth from the rotation and the pen. Same with Chacon, he only made 4 starts last year.

Fogg is flat out terrible.

Garcia won't be back until June at the earliest.

Hernandez is looking for a multi-year deal.

Kim needs no explanation.

Lohse would be lucky to put up a sub 5 ERA if he ever came back to the AL.

Milton just had TJ. Ditto Ortiz.

Odalis Perez has put up an ERA over 5.50 the past two seasons.

Weaver is toast.

Wells is what he is, he won't stay healthy.

That list really sucks. If there is a bright side to this it would be the timing. We have enough notice to make sure Tavarez is stretched out, and we still have Crisp as an asset if we need to make a deal.

I really hope it's not Lohse. He's a ton of money. I'd be happy with Buchholz for now. Or Tavarez. Hell maybe even Snyder in small doses. Or you take a flyer on one of the other guys. Don't dish out the huge money for a mediocre guy like Lohse.

I just heard about Schill....i say we go out and get bedard, but then again, I don't think Angelos will deal within the division (send Coco +prospects)

The other downside is that I've devoted so much energy over the last few years (since he joined the Anaheim Rally Monkeys of LA and Orange Counties or whatever) to taunting him for being such a fatass...I might suffer a nervous breakdown, or even a psychotic break, if I suddenly had to root for him.

Really, I don't think this news is disastrous. Especially if Schilling can just shut it down to start the year and be effective later on - but even if not, all it means is that Julian doesn't have a For Sale sign hanging around his neck. We have full 5-man rotation AND a spot starter even without Schilling. Of course there are question marks - but look around. Most teams' question marks are more like "Can our 3rd starter manage to have an ERA under 6?" No, you can never have enough pitching. But no, there's no need to make a panic move.

Unless we can get Shaq.

Gotta look at the big picture. Combine Schill being out, with Wake having a major injury two straight years and being a slight question mark; in addition to two young guys with very limited combined IP in the bigs, and suddenly we are pretty damned thin.

With Wake's durability not guaranteed any more and two kids who have never thrown a full season before, we absolutely need SP depth. Also gonna need improvement from Dice-K, as his safety net of Schilling is gone. When Dice-K wilted down the stretch, Schilling picked him up and assumed the #2 starter role.

Out of all the names on the flier list, I might look at Weaver first, since he is only 15 months removed from a strong postseason performance and might be coachable with Farrell, as his stint with Duncan in St. Louis seems to indicate.

Also, with Detroit and Seattle improving dramatically, the wildcard is no gimme for the AL East.

For those of you who are living in a dream world where Berdard might be traded to Boston, you might want to think again. According to John Hickey of the Seattle P-I Bedard is on his way to Seattle to take a physical with a press conference for tomorrow.

Link

Back to the Schilling, under no circumstances should Buchholz start in Boston. I'd rather have tavarez as the 5th starter or trade for a starter. Looking at the division, the Yankees are looking at limiting the innings of three pitchers to start the year, the O's just punted for the year. The Rays are too young, and the Jays are looking at limiting the innings of 3 of their starters as well with McGowen, Marcum, and Litsch.

Edit: Plus the Sox have decent depth in the Minors with Hansack, Snyder, or Pauley; any of which would be a fine 5th start for the first couple of months due to rain outs and skipped starts.

I wasn't expecting a ton from Schilling this year anyways so in a way it's a good way to get our young guys into the rotation. Perhaps this makes people think about what could have happened with Santana but I don't know. I'm pretty satisfied with a rotation without Schilling. I think Dice-K is going to have a really good year. Or at least, I hope. It isn't taking a big hit really other than losing an experienced veteran.

Is it so bad if Tavarez serves as the fifth starter until Schill can pitch (if at all) or Clay is ready after being pampered for a while in AAA? Tavarez did a solid job for the first half of last season.

Starting pitching depth is becoming an issue, but there is no suitable option on the free agent market. Lohse shouldn't even be considered, neither should Colon, Weaver, etc. Garcia is intriguing, but won't be of any help this season coming back from shoulder surgery.

Bedard is not coming here.

And to think, there were discussions of a six-man rotation not too long ago. How things change...

I thought very same thing when I first opened this thread. I also like the idea of signing some also ran who can give you six and have an ERA of around 4.50. No way Buch should be in Boston to start the season.

1) Colon wants a two year deal and about six teams that have worked him out or watched him pitch turned him down. Colon is out.

2) Bedard is out as well. Forget every other reason - and I do really believe they wouldnt deal him within the division - we CANT beat the M's offer. Its retarded good. Coco and prospects isnt even remotely close. It would take our Santana offer plus more in my opinion.

3) Blanton will cost too much

Chances are we go with what we have. Tavarez is as good as the guys available when you consider the money involved. The list probably looks more like:

Buchholz
Tavarez
Hansack
Bowden in June/July (remember, pretty much every pitcher we've brought up has come from pitching regularly at AA - Paps, Clay, Lester, Hansack, Pauley, Gabbard, etc...)
Masterson ...?
Hopefully we get Jose Capellan back...?
After that we're talking about filler guys picked off waivers

We're almost certainly not trading for or signing an expensive/veteran/good pitcher...

Papelbon a starter?

I just had another thought (one that will probably get me laughed at whenever we have another DC Royal Rooters outing but here goes).



I played college (and hs) ball, just got back to throwing and pitching 6 months ago....I'll gladly fill in for Schill (as long as I get the #23 jersey, my lucky number).



Heck, i'd be a better alternative than Snyder, plus I throw harder than him

I think he really, really, really likes closing. I wouldn't screw with the desires of a huge talent like him.

Thanks for waking me up, heinie. I think. They're determined to see this train wreck of a trade through to its end, I guess.

Out until All Star Break, according to Edes:

Gordon Edes - Sources: Schilling out Until All Star Break at least

Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling will not have shoulder surgery for what appears to be a partial tear of his rotator cuff, despite the recommendation of the doctor who operated on the shoulder in 1995, and will follow the more conservative course recommended by Sox medical director Thomas Gill, after the club and player agreed to submit to today's recommendation by an outside medical expert.

Even without surgery, the 41-year-old Schilling is not expected to be ready to pitch until the All-Star break, according to several sources familiar with his condition.

Neither Schilling nor the club were commenting on developments this afternoon.

I like Freddy Garcia but he is coming off labrum surgery and may be ready in May/June or after the ASB.

Colon is someone because of his medical history that you can only signed to an incentive laden or minor league deal certainly not a 2 year MLB deal.

I still don't think Lohse is a real option if he is looking for 3/$30M type deal. If he is willing to settle for a 1 year deal and try free agency again next season then he is an option as his market has been very slow to develop because of his exhorbinant demands.

This is why pitching depth is such a nice thing.

Beckett, Matsuzaka, Wakefield, Lester, Buchholz to start the season. Both Lester and Buchholz get scheduled breaks in the second half of the season skip 2-3 starts rest arms, rebuild arm/shoulder strength.

Well, if what PG just said on sportscenter is true, Schill might not have surgery and opt for rehabbing the shoulder... in which case he could pitch after the break. That works fine. We can give the kids a rest then. Its not ideal, but think of it this way: We all expected Schill to miss time this year. Now we find out he's missing half of the year. The only thing that's unexpected is that its the first half he's missing. Its an accelerated program for the kids, for sure, but should be easier than what the Yanks are trying with their kids.

Im kind of looking forward to it. It will be fun to see two young kids in the rotation like when we had Paxton Crawford and Tomo Okha. Also, I wont have to hear everyone bitch and moan b/c Buchholz isnt going to AAA - and dont delude yourselves, he was absolutely ticketed for Pawtucket. This is a hit, but its not unexpected. I do wish we had traded for Santana though.

Still the easy favorites to win the East, but our depth is no longer ridiculous. To compare, imagine the s***storm that would be going on in the Bronx right now if Andy Pettitte was out until the break. Schill was less of a loss than that in many ways.

That's what Edes reported (two posts above), but it's apparently NOT Schill's choice. The doctor he saw recommended surgery, but the Sox don't want surgery, but rehab.

I'm all for this idea. If you play well enough we could trump SOSH after they got Eric Van hired by the Sox front office. Our board would've provided a 5th starter (unless you think your upside is a #3).

I was expecting very little from Schill this year, but he would've eaten 5 IP/start. Now we have to hope that Wake holds up and use Tavarez. We aren't going to see Buchholz before mid-may since he's on an innings count and him in AAA until then keeps him under control an entire extra year.

I wouldn't mind the Blanton idea (since we will need another starter next year anyway), I just don't see Beane trading for 2 years worth of Crisp and minor leaguers.

I like the idea of Weaver because Duncan had success coaching him in St. Louis, but then again I think the bigger problem that Weaver had was controlling his emotions. He was able to do that in St. Louis because, even though baseball is their sport, they aren't as nuts as Boston/New York fans in terms of intensity. I'm not saying they don't love their baseball, because God knows they do, but I don't think they are the type to stand behind the home dugout and call out slurs to the players on the field after a slump or embarrassing play.

It's easy for a high intensity guy to dial it down when he is in a low intensity environment, but not as easy as when everyone around him is going nuts too.

I still the think the best option is standing pat and using Snyder and Tavarez to fill in as needed. The list of available pitchers isn't very talent rich, so if by the end of spring training it looks like Tavarez/Snyder/Bucholz won't work in the rotation we trade for someone on another team of equal talent (at least) to what is available now.

If we sign Weaver, can we make his picture on the Jumbotron be that one of him watching in disbelief as a home run left the planet last year at Fenway?

Who hit that one, anyway? It seems so long ago.

Drew. I'm pretty sure it was our home opener, too.

We, also, could make a trade for someone like Matt Maloney or Elizardo Ramirez, maybe even Robinson Tejeda. Just a guy we can use and then stash at Pawtucket. Maybe talk to Washington about one of their 492 SP on their depth chart.

Kyle Lohse stinks.
pass.

Kyle Lohse pitched for the Reds and Phillies last year, in two of the most absurd hitter's parks in baseball. And his home ERA, you ask? 3.03. And a 1.16 WHIP. Add to that, he only gave up 10 HR at his home parks, with not-so-great defenses behind him.

I like Lohse a lot, personally, and think he'd do well. Of course I signed him in WAU and am bias.

That's something to look at in spring training...I heard Bard was impressive working out of the bullpen

I will agree Lohse is a live arm and still only 28.

but there's also probably a reason he's still unemployed so close to spring training.

This could actually be a blessing in disguise. The youngsters get some seasoning in the first half and then we will hopefully have the big game pitcher rested and ready to go in the second half and playoffs. It's much better that he goes down now rather than later, assuming he can comeback.
Wonder what it would take to pry Houston Street loose from the A's ?

Just curious, why the interest in Street?

Those guys arent going to be any better than what we already have on hand, IMHO.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtop...7763&st=100

Schill just posted a short item on SOSH. Link is above.


And, of course, a blog entry:

Speculation is rampant right now. I see the Sox just released a statement.At the time we negotiated the 2008 contract I passed all physical exams and testing, as well as the MRI the club required me to take. I knew in my heart of hearts that the extra time I was giving my arm to rest this winter would in fact be the cure for what I went through the entire 2007 season. I had a strong desire to not have to go through multiple cortisone injections in my shoulder for another year. There was absolutely no reason for anyone involved to believe I would be anything other than completely healthy and ready for the 2008 baseball season.Things have changed since then and I contacted the team early last month with concerns and we’ve been working diligently to resolve them.There have been disagreements these past few weeks in an effort to provide me with a solution that would allow me to pitch as much as possible during the 2008 season. At no time did I ever consider taking a course of action against the clubs wishes. In the end, regardless of who agreed with whom, I have chosen the clubs course of action and will vigorously pursue any and every option I can to be able to help this team to another World Series title in 2008.Please understand that a lot of what has been reported is not true. When the club feels it’s appropriate to further discuss the details of this issue publicly I will elaborate but I need to make it clear that Dr Morgan did NOT diagnose me with a tear of the rotator cuff at any time during this process, nor did he recommend rotator cuff surgery.Dr Craig Morgan is inarguably one of the most highly respected shoulder experts in the world. I’m here because 13 years ago he was the only person on the planet to actually get what was wrong with me and correctly diagnose, and then treat me. He’s been on the cutting edge of treating throwing shoulders for over a decade. Much of the stuff that’s now seen as cutting edge treatment and therapy he was doing 10 years ago. I trusted him with my career then, and always will.After being diagnosed by the Red Sox medical staff I sought a second opinion, as anyone would, and when it became clear there was disagreement (which is not uncommon by the way), I agreed to see an independent Doctor from a list the Red Sox provided me, for the third opinion.At this time I have agreed to abide with the clubs wishes in hopes that will provide the results they believe it will.