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Full Version: Are PEDs actually PEDs?
Royal Rooters > WE'RE TALKIN' BASEBALL > AROUND THE MAJORS
Red Sox Fan2
http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

some excerpts:

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Steroids have a markedly greater effect on upper-body strength than on lower-body strength.

Batting is almost exclusively powered by lower-body strength.

Beefcake doesn't drive long balls.


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For this thought experiment, I used ratios of both 4:1 and a more moderate 3:1 upper/lower differential. I'll take the example of that 200-pound man who adds 20 extra pounds of pure muscle, a pretty substantial gain (and almost identical to that attributed to Barry Bonds).

Skipping over the arithmetic, if the upper/lower ration is 4:1, he'll be able to drive the ball an extra 30 inches or so; if it's 3:1, that would go up to maybe 45 inches.

Right away, we see that that's not much. And remember, too, that we have assigned all of his muscle gain to steroids, which is just silly: if he went through the same exercise regime without any steroids, he'd still gain some significant muscle. Just what does 2 to 4 extra feet mean? It's hard to say, but (and the line of thought is on the longer page) that kind of difference--that is, without the extra muscle the ball falls 2 to 4 feet short but with it it just clears the fence--might mean one extra home run a year for an average man; and, again, the purely steroidal component might not even mean that. So it's not at all surprising that the actual stats of the game show no effect from putative steroid use, bulked-up biceps or no.


Sox Sweep Again
I doubt this entirely. I think the effects have proven themselves.
BigSlick
QUOTE(Sox Sweep Again @ Apr 3 2008, 02:32 PM) *
I doubt this entirely. I think the effects have proven themselves.


I refuse to even read the article unless someone can prove to me that when you inject steroids that they miraculously know that while traveling through the bloodstream where the waist is and when they start to head below it they manage to do a quick U-Turn.

Actually that's not true. I will accept proof of a K-Turn as well.
Red Sox Fan2
QUOTE(BigSlick @ Apr 3 2008, 02:43 PM) *
I refuse to even read the article unless someone can prove to me that when you inject steroids that they miraculously know that while traveling through the bloodstream where the waist is and when they start to head below it they manage to do a quick U-Turn.Actually that's not true. I will accept proof of a K-Turn as well.
At least look at the graphs that they post and explain why there has been no spike in power during the "steroid era".Also:
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In short: Batting power is all about lower-body strength. Bulging biceps and triceps and deltoids and the rest of the upper-body muscle set may wow the baseball Annies--and perhaps scandal-sniffing reporters--but they mean essentially nothing to long-ball hitting. We don't need to rely on physicists for that fact: anyone in baseball knows it well. So, when we consider whether a ballplayer who has added weight in the form of muscle has added to his ability to power a ball, we really can only add in, in these equations, that amount of muscle showing up in lower-body strength. While I suppose it's anatomically impossible, a batter who added, say, 5 pounds of muscle to his lower body and zero to his upper body would be just as power-ball-enhanced as a batter who added 20 pounds of total muscle of which 5 was lower body and 15 upper body
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Aging and Power:Contrary to what uncountable numbers of ignoramuses are chattering away about, medical science has long been aware that strength tends to peak at about age 40 (or possibly later), and then typically remain nearly constant for another decade or so. (There are extensive probative citations from the medical literature on the the medical-effects page here.) That a man can, by a diligent exercise regimen, sustain, or even improve, strength after his early 30s is no puzzle or inexplicable oddity--it is normal human behavior.
chicowalker
QUOTE(Red Sox Fan2 @ Apr 3 2008, 10:55 AM) *
...Also:

...Batting power is all about lower-body strength...

...strength tends to peak at about age 40 (or possibly later), and then typically remain nearly constant for another decade or so...


re. the first, perhaps they're intentionally exaggerating, but there's no way that's true (just as it isn't true that batting power is all about upper body strength)

re. the 2nd, perhaps it depends on how they're defining "strength"...
kylexray
What about pitching? That is mostly legs as well and guys have been known to increase their velocity significantly with roids.
rominer
There are a couple of obvious flaws with the "home runs as a proportion of total hits" analysis:

1. For there to be a "power spike" by this measure, you have to assume that PEDs impact home run totals but don't impact other offensive numbers. I don't see a basis for that assumption. If I'm stronger from PEDs, more weak grounders are going to be hard grounders that get through the infield. More routine fly balls are going to carry to the wall for doubles and triples. And yes, more home runs. There can be an overall spike in offense without that spike showing up as a change in the percentage of hits that are home runs.

2. Not all players use/used PEDs. Without knowing who did and didn't, you can't easily measure the impact. Maybe for the 25% of players who did use PEDs, there is a power spike. Maybe for some percentage of those who didn't use PEDs, there is actually a power drop because they couldn't compete with pitchers who were using PEDs. But without knowing who falls into which category, there's no way to prove or disprove any trend.

As for the notion that power is all about lower body strength:

Yes. That's where power is generated.

But, no. The single biggest factor in actually hitting for power is how squarely you hit the ball.

That's where arms and wrists come in handy. You can generate all the power in the world with your lower body -- but once that bat gets moving, if you don't have the upper body strength to control where it goes, you're going to have a lot of epic swings-and-misses, plenty of mile high pop-ups. And, sure, a mammoth home run or two -- but you're not going to be a great power hitter.

The more potential power you're generating with your lower body, I would think the more upper body strength you would need to get consistent results at the plate. So even if it's true (seems odd, but I have no idea) that PEDs disproportionately impact upper body strength, that's not as irrelevant as the author is suggesting.

Beyond that, I've only skimmed the article. Haven't read it thoroughly. He does raise some valid points. I'm not convinced that one of those valid points is "PEDs don't actually enhance performance," though.
roidrage
Also:

Most seem to only consider the effects of increased bat speed after the bat makes contact with the ball. But what happens before needs to be considered as well. If you have increased bat speed, you can sit back on the pitch just a couple of milliseconds longer - long enough to see one extra ball rotation or so. This leads to improved pitch/location recognition, resulting in more walks, fewer strikeouts, and more contact on the sweet spot, ultimately ending in more quality at-bats all around.

ghostoffoxx
QUOTE(Red Sox Fan2 @ Apr 3 2008, 02:55 PM) *
QUOTE
Aging and Power:Contrary to what uncountable numbers of ignoramuses are chattering away about, medical science has long been aware that strength tends to peak at about age 40 (or possibly later), and then typically remain nearly constant for another decade or so. (There are extensive probative citations from the medical literature on the the medical-effects page here.) That a man can, by a diligent exercise regimen, sustain, or even improve, strength after his early 30s is no puzzle or inexplicable oddity--it is normal human behavior.


I'm calling shenanigans. Did you read the abstracts to those studies? Just glancing over a couple I found a couple of items that jumped out at me:

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“Strength and power declined beginning by age 40 in both women and men. Thereafter, power declined about 10%”
"By age 40" meaning that there was a perceptible change prior to the age of 40

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Histochemical changes in the muscle tissue such as decreased proportion of type II fibers and a selective atrophy of type II fibers, were seen with increasing age. The strength decline in old age was also observed to correlate significantly with the type II fiber area. Multiple regression analyses indicated, however, that mechanisms other than the type II fiber atrophy might be responsible for the decline in strength performance during aging. The implications of these findings are discussed. (emphasis mine)


I haven't had a chance to deep dive into these studies, but I don't think they are stating what you think they're stating.

After the age of 25 the production of testosterone in men begins to decline at a steady rate. Weight training can help ameliorate this process, but it is still going to happen. The more you weight train the slower the process. So, while a baseball player who is an avid weight lifter will see a slower decline that decline will still occur. I saw nothing in the few abstracts listed that stated that ageing and decreased muscle mass/strength are not linked. If I get some free time I’ll try and dig into these studies.

Red Sox Fan2
QUOTE(ghostoffoxx @ Apr 4 2008, 11:45 AM) *
After the age of 25 the production of testosterone in men begins to decline at a steady rate. Weight training can help ameliorate this process, but it is still going to happen. The more you weight train the slower the process. So, while a baseball player who is an avid weight lifter will see a slower decline that decline will still occur. I saw nothing in the few abstracts listed that stated that ageing and decreased muscle mass/strength are not linked. If I get some free time I’ll try and dig into these studies.



QUOTE
Contrary to what uncountable numbers of ignoramuses are chattering away about, medical science has long been aware that strength tends to peak at about age 40 (or possibly later), and then typically remain nearly constant for another decade or so. (There are extensive probative citations from the medical literature on the the medical-effects page here.) That a man can, by a diligent exercise regimen, sustain, or even improve, strength after his early 30s is no puzzle or inexplicable oddity--it is normal human behavior.

ghostoffoxx
Great, RSF2, you're quoting the website that is misinterpreting the studies. You might want to look at the actual studies(abstracts).

Let's break this down. Testosterone equates to muscle mass. The more testosterone an individual has the greater their muscle mass. Speaking in generalities, men at the age of 25 stop producing as much testosterone in their bodies. Weight training can help reduce the percentage of testosterone lost, but there will still be a total net loss.

So, let's look at the evidence quoted by the website:

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Strength and power declined beginning by age 40 in both women and men.


By age 40 means strength and power declined at or before the age of 40. Since I don't have access to the Journal of Gerontology I can't view how exactly this study was linked in other articles. Reading this abstract, I have a strong suspicion that there is a noticeable decline in strength and this study focuses on the precipitous drop of strength after the age of 40.

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Isometric and dynamic strength increased up to the third decade, remained almost constant to the fifth decade, and then decreased with increasing age


I'm not a kinesiologist nor do I play one on TV, but I can tell you there is a world of difference between building muscle mass through weight training and muscle training through isometrics and Dynamic strength. Isometrics and Dynamic training can help with overall strength, but these types of training regiments focus more on muscle endurance.

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Cross-sectional studies indicate that isometric and concentric strength levels peak between the second and third decade, remain unchanged until the fourth or fifth decade, and start to decline from about the fifth decade at a rate of 12% to 15% per decade until the eighth decade in men.


ibid (Although, I do want to look at this a little more. This information could relate to pitchers in particular so, I'll withhold from saying more)

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Regression analysis showed that in both men and women endurance swimming performance (i.e., 1,500 m) declined linearly from peak levels at age 35-40 yr until approximately 70 yr of age . . .


ibid.

So, these studies tell me that muscle endurance can be built into one's 30's and maintained until roughly the age of 50. That's wonderful news for marathon runners, but not so much for baseball players (as it relates to hitting the long ball). These studies don't state that the muscle mass associated with power can be maintained, which is what I meant that there is no correlation between muscle mass and any of these studies (at least what I could read with limited access). Again, I really don't think these studies say what you think they say.

Edit: Word Correction
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