I haven't been a fan of Crisp and Ellsbury platooning 50/50. This is not good for Ellsbury's development, and it gives no chance to build up Crisp's trade value. I would prefer optioning Ellsbury for a month or so to try to build up Crisp's value, but I'd also consider making Crisp a sunk cost and have him be the 4th OF (giving Ellsbury an occasional day off vs. LHP) and defensive replacement. Also, if you option Ellsbury, that allows Kielty to come up, which provides insurance if Drew sucks against LHP. Either way, I think the team has to take one of these options, because I don't believe the every other day platoon is going to work out for anyone.

I think this is less about what makes baseball sense than about keeping everyone happy and not letting the situation blow up.

You could be upset we're not doing the most to win every day I guess, but I consider the difference between what the two players give you on the field to be negligible.

Jacoby should get the great majority of the starts in CF for the same reason he took over during last season's PS: He's a better BB player than Coco Crisp. End of story.

As far as building up Coco's trade value goes, I don't think that should be a concern. By playing him on a regular basis, you probably run as much risk of decreasing his trade value as you do of increasing it. If he gets off to a start offensively like he did last year or sucks as badly as he did after coming back from the finger injury in 06, he could actually be a less desirable commodity.

He is a sunk cost at this point. Fortunately, the cost wasn't great, since Andy Marte hasn't really done anything.

I still say Coco can be useful as a fourth OFer, getting starts in all three spots and replacing Manny in the late innings. And I don't really care whether or not he likes the role. He's been an out machine for two years. When a guy doesn't produce, he gets demoted.

No....Crisp has his chance to shine last year and he blew it at the plate.

Ellsbury shined during the most pressuring of times ( playoffs/world series)
he should get full time

So if Ellsbury's little bloop hits in the WS were caught, than what?

By platooning them, neither player will really get a chance to get into a rhythm at the plate, IMO. If you're gonna play Jacoby, play him. Or don't. But make a decision.

There's a reason why the Sox switched CFers in the middle of the playoffs. It has nothing to do with bloop hits and everything to do with the fact that Ellsbury is a better overall player. Ellsbury is the future in CF and should be getting the playing time during the regular season. I just don't see how playing Coco more is going to increase his trade value enough to make it worth it.

They switched because Crisp couldn't even lay down a bunt. Ellsbury just happend to remain hot despite being benched for a period of time. If Crisp got a few hits, he would of been the starter in the WS.

Good God, another panicky thread? Jesus, folks.

Ellsbury is simply a better player, but I totally see the logic here, especially given the arduous Japan/Oakland/Toronto trip. Terry's trying to keep everyone fresh and everyone happy right now. April is the time to do this. I think they've given up on Crisp showing awesome trade potential at this point. They're going to have to give him away for a song at some point to make room for Jacoby, but right now there's no urgency. Crisp might be a mid-season chip in a larger deal for a starting pitcher. There's no rush to make Jacoby the full-timer ... yet.

thEn we wouldnt be having this discussion..but his hits werent caught.

they were hits no matter how u get them.

Crisp cant buy a hit

It honestly makes no sense to me. I mean sure, put Crisp in against pitchers that he has a good history with (like against Rogers today), but don't make it 50/50. 80/20 sounds good to me. And putting Crisp in as a defensive replacement late in the game makes sense to me, too.
If the situation upsets Crisp, trade him. It's not that complex.

I still think the problem with the 50/50 is that it doesn't let either of them get into a rhythm. I really think the Sox need to committ to one or the other.

Anyone else find it ironic that this topic is split 50/50 into two different threads?

They should platoon, just not 50/50.

Ellsbury vs. RHP, Coco vs. LHP.

Coco does hit marginally better (and with a little bit more pop) from the right side.

But most of the minor league splits I can find for Ellsbury, as well as his Major League splits (tiny sample size) suggest that he can hit lefties ok. Ellsbury's PawSox numbers vs. lefties weren't great -- but I wouldn't write him off vs. lefties.

Especially since it's not like Coco is an .850 or .900 OPS guy against lefties himself. The upgrade isn't huge. If a L/R platoon is designed to keep Crisp happy, so be it. I don't know that it's necessary. Seems to me that Crisp is just being given a chance to earn the right to keep his job, or earn his way to a 4th OF role.

You have to give Crisp some playing time, partially to keep him happy, partially to give him at least some value in trade, and partially to keep Ellsbury fresh. Having him face LHP seems as good a way to get him into the lineup as any, considering not just his numbers but that Fenway favors right handed hitters.

Just wondering if anyone's perceptions of Coco have changed since he's gone 9-23 since April 8th (the date of the last post in this thread) in regards to him getting so much playing time? Of course only one of those 9 hits went for extra bases (2b) but he's been giving a clinic in the art of bunting & has been playing his usual quality defense.

Note: In the same span (4/8), Ellsbury has hit 4-10 w/ 7 BB.

Seems to me to be a case of 'if it's not broke there's nothing that needs fixin'.

Coco & Ellsbury platooning CF as well as filling in for both Manny & JD on occasion & maybe for Ortiz until the slump gone (by moving Manny to DH) appears to be an atiquote answer, at least while the Sox are winning & both Coco & Ellsbury continue to perform.

Is the current situation we’re experiencing now to good to be true? Meaning can this arrangement continue throughout the season with both players remaining seemingly content w/ playing time? If so, does anyone still have an argument of why the Sox should even consider moving Coco this season?

Works for me just fine.

No, I haven't changed. Despite his .382 BABIP he's still only managed a .724 OPS. He never walks, he has zero power, and when his rates normalize, that regression is going to be a bitch. Ride him while he's lucky, but anyone expecting it to continue will be disappointed in my opinion. Here's a link to his graphs.

Link

Terrible BB% and BB/K, abysmal ISO, the aforementioned BABIP all add up to Coco not being as good as he looks right now.

Shhhhhh...

Be quite before any other GMs hear you.

I do think Coco gets traded in the next six to eight weeks. For bullpen help perhaps. Even when he regresses that offense combined with his defense makes him an asset to many ballclubs. I dont want to overreact based on a few weeks/50+ ABs, but it sure does appear as if Ellsbury is a good bit better than Coco. Ellsbury is giving us some great at bats... and his defense looks great, too.

I do think it's more likely now than at has been at any point since Johan Santana found a new home.

Not so much because of the hot start (as singles hitters go), although that helps – but because we are seeing glaring holes in the pitching staff.

At the same time, though, I still don't see an absolute urgency. There is potential rotation help already in Bartolo Colon. There is potential bullpen help in Craig Hansen. And Josh Beckett is at a point now – not so in his first two starts – where he should have the stamina to survive deeper into ballgames. That alone could have some trickle down effect on the performance of a bullpen that has pitched nearly 40% of the team's innings so far.

As long as the team can afford to be patient, I think they will.

I'm a big fan of Coco's (went to same HS, although decades before he was born) and I do think he is the superior fielder. Nonetheless, Ellsbury is the future and the reason to trade Coco is that sooner or later, within the next 2 months or so, someone is going to be desperate for a starting outfielder and, when that time comes, the Sox will be able to get decent value for him as long as (once he is healthy again) he can continue to post reasonable batting stats when he does get into the games. Francona's use of him so far has been great for buoying his trade value at such time as some other team needs him.

So the reason to trade is to get decent value, and it will surely happen.

It would be crazy to trade Crisp now. The RS have an injury-prone RF, an unproven CF, Manny in LF, and a DH who is not hitting. Crisp can get plenty of PT with a well-thought out rotation with Manny occaisonally used as a DH.

However, when does Coco start going Jay Payton (disruptive)? Long term, non starters don't make nearly the money that starters do. He knows that, and he'll want starters' money. Coco seems like a good team guy, but he's only human.

Coco or no Coco, Jacoby Ellisbury should be the starting center fielder. Joe Thurston looks like a pretty good defensive outfielder, but probably won't hit much. But then again Coco isn't going to be happy staying as back up, he is an inexpensive alternative.

Potentially disruptive is not a good enough reason to move him.
Let's face it, trades are not the forte of the RS front office.

I've said all along that I thought Ellsbury is a better player than Crisp and now he's even getting more selective at the plate and taking walks. Crisp is a needed 4th outfielder who should get 75 starts just in resting the other three outfielders (injuries, etc) as well as a late inning defensive replacement, pinch hitter, and pinch runner. The idea of sending Ellsbury down to Pawtucket is foolish.

The fact of the matter is that Ellsbury is a better player and a legit leadoff hitter, something this team needs. He seems to be getting better and better at the plate too. 50/50 platooning them is looking more and more useless. Crisp shouldn't be moved unless they could get actual value from the deal and I don't see that happening until around the ASB. Until then Crisp will just have to be content playing a limited role, and hope to be able to start over somewhere else.

Looking at Jacoby's stats right now makes me so anxious to go home in a few weeks where I get NESN and can watch a game more than once a week. He's hitting with a .277/.444/.404 line, which means he's walking in 16.7% of his plate appearances. And even with such a high walk rate, he's hardly striking out at all (13 walks to 5 Ks). He's stolen 8 bases and hasn't been thrown out once (going back to last season he's 17-0). In other words, he's stretched 8 singles into doubles at no cost. If you add that to his total bases his slugging average jumps to .574. Baseball Prospectus's fielding statistics have him at 3 runs above average in center and 1 run above average in right.

Consider me officially on the bandwagon.

He really is spectacular. The best part is that, beyond the basic stat lines, he is a pest at the plate. He fouls off a number of pitches every time. He's a pain the a** to get out the way Johnny Damon was. This kid was born to be our leadoff guy... Im now convinced of it. He ignites the offense in a way only those special players can. Other teams must dread the top of our order... How many times do they go through without at least getting a man on base?

As for a place where there's been talk of Coco going, Chicago (Cubs), a guy the announcers were saying last night was a Lou Piniella project, Felix Pie, pronounced Pee-A, had a big 3 run pinch hit HR and Sweet Lou was shown going crazy in the dugout. Just one game, but...Also, as long as the Cubs are going well, their interest in getting Coco may wane to near zero.

Excellent post, W.A.C.

This may belong in the dumb question thread, but do they track stats for getting on base whether by walk or hit and eventually scoring? My interest would be the rate at which Jacoby scores vs. Coco's rate of scoring....

Jacoby has been on base 30 times (Hits+Walks+HBP+Pinch Running Twice-Home Runs) and has scored 16 runs. One of the runs came from a his only double, one from pinch running for Manny on second base, one from his home run, and one from his triple. So basically he's been on first base 26 times and scored 12 runs.

FWIW After stealing second Ellsbury has scored 3 times. I've been using baseball reference's gamelogs for these posts by the way

Unfortunately stealing second has nothing to do with SLG. If there's a runner on first and Jacoby hits a double, that runner may score and at least ends up on third. If Jacoby hits a single with a runner on first, that runner goes no farther than third and may in fact stop at second, PREVENTING Jacoby from stealing. Single+SB < Double, for any purpose.

It wouldn't be an entirely fair evaluation, though. Jacoby has been in the leadoff spot for 44 of his 64 plate appearances (69%). Coco has been in the leadoff spot for only 14 of his 44 PAs (32%), with nearly 60% of his PAs coming from the 7th or 8th spot. Whatever your baserunning skills, you're not scoring at as high a rate with Julio Lugo hitting right behind you as with Pedroia behind you (and Ortiz & Ramirez after him).

sure. that may very well be part of the reason they have speed at the bottom of the line up with Lugo and Crisp allowing for Jacoby's contact and an opportunity to score with that single, knowing he's a very patient hitter doesn't get them caught in too many double-plays either.That's a fair assessment, point taken.

At the same time, of course...there's a reason why Ellsbury gets trusted with those leadoff ABs, and Coco doesn't. Ultimately, speed on the basepaths isn't useful unless you're actually on the basepaths.

Tonight was probably the final nail in Coco's coffin...be very hard to start platooning them now again with Ellsbury busting out. Hell, Coco's trade value is probably going down now simply because teams know the Sox want to play Ellsbury. Hopefully the minor injury is over soon and Theo can pull off that Crisp-Sean Gallagher swap that Gammons threw out last week. He would be an incredible return on Coco.

I didn't see the game, but, wow on Jacoby! Still early but maybe we do have another Grady Sizemore on our hands (or better?). Drool. Some guys just do better in the majors than in the minors. Ells may be another of them, like Sizemore. I know, how could you sit Jacoby now?

Tonight notwithstanding, Jacoby will never have the power Sizemore has; but I will say that Jacoby has the chance of being a devastating run scorer in front of Pedroia-Ortiz-Manny-Drew-Youk-Lowell. If he keeps this OBP up and Pedroia hits anything close to what he has been doing, this lineup has the chance to just be a wrecking machine. Starting to feel like the 2003 offense; hell Lugo is hitting over .300.

His pitch selection is getting better, and he is one of those rare players where a walk is nearly a double every time. This kid is going to just score an absolute shitload of runs.

You can't, IMO (and I'm conservative on veterans) but Ellsbury has to play and Coco needs to either be #4 and get his 75-100 games in a part-time role, or we need a prospect for him.

But I really, really like Coco Crisp a lot... I expected more, though, unfortunately.

Agreed. I was thrilled when he was signed, but Ellsbury is playing like a young Ricky Henderson. This thread shouldn't even exist anymore.

I think the stance that Theo/Tito takes in these situations is something akin to "make us not be able to sit you down;" "force your way into that lineup." This is exactly what Ellsbury is doing now; as I mentioned earlier he is almost playing too well as it relates to Coco's trade value. I think Theo moves him pretty quick now as the platoon charade that propped up his trade value is vanishing.

I wonder if the Twins want to redo the Santana trade so that they can get Ellsbury instead of Gomez to play CF for them.

Alright, I know I just said that I'm on the Jacoby bandwagon, but neither of these comparisons are realistic. Jacoby will never be the player that either of these guys are/were

I know its been said a billion times, but he really, really resembles Johnny Damon. They play the same way... its creepy how much theyre alike. They hack at pitches to foul them off and stay alive the same way. Tough outs.

I'm another original Coco supporter who has now seen enough of Jacoby to not want to see any more of Crisp. Hope he gets traded to some nice comfy NL team where he can flourish, and bring back a decent prospect for the Sox.

I wonder if the OP still wants to send Ellsbury down to Pawtucket so that he gets to play every day.

Jacoby Ellsbury doesn't remind me of anyone and that's great. He is dripping with game-changing talent. What a joke Francona threw out after last night's game saying that Jacoby is 'Damonesque'. I really believe Francona was speaking tongue in cheek because he is beginning to see the vast offensive arsenal this fresh young colt provides. Ellsbury is seperating himself from others who have gone before him because Jacoby simply cannot be contained at present health, intelligence and vigor.

Why not? Sizemore bulked up, I believe, to start getting the power numbers he's gotten the last three years. Other than power, how is he better than Ellsbury's potential? And, 2 HRs last night for Ells, neither a cheapie. It's still reallly, really early for Ellsbury, but, here's a test: would you trade him for Sizemore? As for Rickey, he's a HOFer. I agree to not go near that comp. yet.