I was surprised that there wasn't a thread for this already so I figured I would kick it off with the youtube link and some quotes.

There will obviously be suspensions for Coco, Shield, and Gomes. Maybe Crawford and Iwamora too.



Interesting quote from a guy who made his MLB debut in 2006. Considering that Shields is 26 I guess its been bothering him since he was 16 and in high school.






Clearly, Gomes was there to defend the pitcher. Not to punch a guy already on the ground or anything



Great Coco quotes too:



Coco really shouldn't have charged the mound since he got hit low but I still loved it. For some reason I like Coco more now than I did before the brawl.

I’m dismayed that Chris Carter didn’t throw down last night. Come on kid, prove to us that you’re a ‘real’ Red Sock! (I kid of course).

I think Coco is clearly in the wrong here. I support his slide into 2b the night before & even barking back at Maddon from the top step after the incident. However, after that he knew he was going to be thrown at and Shields did it the right way, by throwing at his legs/ass vs. his head and Coco even acknowledged as much after the game. What he should have done was take his medicine & walk to first.

Getting hit is part of the game, many of today's players somehow seem to forget this. Last night’s incident isn’t similar, in my view, to Joba throwing at Youk’s head twice last season (did we ever get a real explanation as to why the Yanks were throwing at Youk last year?), or Farnsworth throwing behind Manny earlier this season (which we’ve yet to retaliate for). In both cases Youks & Manny (ironic, ey?) would have had more justification in charging the mound than did Coco. Coco’s original beef was with Bartlett. If anything Coco should have retaliated on the base paths when Bartlett was again covering 2b and if the opportunity hadn’t presented itself in last night’s game, you put it in your back pocket until the teams meet again.


That said, last night I was wishing that Willie Mo Pena, Gabe Kapler & Trot Nixon were still on the team. As a fan it’s very entertaining to see the home town team get into it but you don’t want to see someone get hurt. I was a bit surprised that so many Rays were throwing punches (Gomes, Crawford & Iwamora) yet the brawl didn't esculate further on the part of the Sox (i.e. nobody threw a punch/slap other than Coco).

I imagine the umps will have quick hooks for pitchers throwing at guys come the next series. If warnings aren’t issued before the start of the game, we best hit Gomes first, though I suspect not in the first game (it’d be too obvious).

As an aside, who wins a 10 round fight in the ring, Manny or Youk? It'd be a good fight, I really don't know who I'd put my $ on.

I think Crisp was wrong for charging the mound after being hit in the leg by a slow pitch, but I have to laugh about Joe Maddon this spring talking about how he teaches his players to play the game tough and the right way even in spring training and he gets upset when the other team does it. I predict Crisp to get 6 games, Shields 6 games (as that's what starting pitchers normally get), Crawford and Gomes 5 games and Maddon 2 or 3 games. I give Crisp the extra game for charging the mound.

What bothered me was the way he charged the mound. If he got hit and - boom - ran after the pitcher, that would be excusable. Heat of the moment sort of thing. But to stand at home plate the way he did for two seconds, and even start moving to first the way he did before charging the mound was just bullsh*t. Either do it or don't, but standing there thinking about it. It was too calculated, and reminded me of Gerald Williams going after Pedro that time in Tampa (was that really 8 years ago?). It wasn't as bad as that but it was close.

Gomes is going to get the worst of it, Carl Crawford too. Footage clearly shows the two of them jumping in and taking shots at someone who was defenseless. Gomes was the DH so he wasn't even on the field when the fight started. How he got out of the dugout and across the diamond so quickly is a feat of athleticism that in other circumstances would be praised.

My last point is I agree with you about how this raises Coco's standing among the fans. You could just see it as he walked off the field last night. He may well have become the new Trot Nixon, that is a lesser-talented, emotionally charged fan favorite.

I'm rather disappointed that not once, but twice, Coco Crisp had the opportunity to let a rather minor slight go and instead chose to escalate the situation. Now the Red Sox are looking at one injured CF and another one who is about to be suspended (hopefully Crisp can appeal until Ellsbury is healthy enough to start in CF again). Crisp has shown Lugo-level judgement over the past two games, and that's unfortunate.

See I don't know if Shields should get anything. Although if that punch connected he may be out a while. But I suppose it has to be one start if he gets something so 6 makes sense.

Protecting your pitcher Gomes. I didn't see Shields under Coco. Cut those nails man!!

I hope the fans don't think of Coco as a new Trot. Coco acted like a bitch last night, he gets hit in the ass and he charges the mound. Trot would've "accidentally" thrown the bat at Shields.

I agree that Coco used poor judgment in charging the mound but it's plain silly to hang Ellsbury's injury on him. If Tito hadn't started Coco none of this would have happened & Ellsbury would still have been in CF to make that play/injury himself anyway.

Also, the Youk vs. Manny showdown wasn't Coco's fault nor was the pitch that BJ tossed to give up that horrific HR to Giambi earlier in the day......stupid BJ Ryan, I hope he gets the clap but I digress.



I'm not clear on the reference to 'Lugo-level judgement'.

I like Crisp 100 times more today. Calling Gomes, and the other Rays little girls for scratching was not only spot on, but hilarious.

I don't see what Coco did wrong the game before? Bartlett blocked 2nd base on a steal attempt like he was blocking the plate. So Coco slides hard into 2nd to even the score. I don't see anything wrong with what Coco did in the first game.

Agreed about the people blaming Coco for Ellsbury's injury. Give me a break, at the time Jacoby was fine and there was no way he could know that both Manny and Ellsbury would have to come out of the game later due to injuries.

Ellsbury's injury obviously isn't Coco's fault (although Ellsbury was only playing CF because Coco showed poor judgement), but it is Coco's fault that we're looking at a CF depth problem due to a combination of an injury and a suspension. Coco's judgement was bad no matter what happened afterwards, but what happened afterwards may make the consequences of his judgement harsher than they otherwise would have been.

The last bit was a reference to Lugo not always being considered to have the highest baseball IQ on the planet (getting tossed over a checked swing by the batter while he was at SS, making throws to first that should have been held, being too whiny with the home plate ump while at bat, etc). A rather unscientific and probably unnecessary comment.

Charging the mound was stupid. Period. It wasn't warranted in the situation. It looked premediated, like he was hoping he'd get hit so he could charge the mound--and get suspended.

Fine, don't blame the Ellsbury problem on him, but knew Manny's hamstrings were tight and we were basically down an outfielder to begin with. So it was selfish on top of everything.

You guys are soft. Have you ever had someone throw a baseball at 90+ MPH at you?
They intentionally threw at him. I say at that point you have a quick decision, and I'm fine with him EITHER charging the mound or taking the base. The pitcher has used a weapon to hurt you. If you don't think it hurts getting hit anywhere with a 90+mph pitched baseball, you're an idiot.
If he missed Coco and Coco charged, I'd be angry that he charged, but under the circumstances, it turned out as a plus for the Sox because Shields and Gomes were tossed, the Sox swept the Rays and decimated their BP in the process. The Ellsbury injury has nothing whatsoever to do with Coco gettng tossed, so just stop on that BS.

I'd rather have guys who fight for themselves and their teammates than any of you detracting Sally-Ann's.

Bunch of pansies in this thread. It's good to have a fight every once in a while. Good job Coco, i'm glad to see your balls are functioning.

EDIT: Just saw MPS2's post. What he said.

What Manny and Westlake said, also, kept me fired up for the Celtics game. I was so jacked by the end of the night it took me 3 hours to fall asleep.

I would never put down a guy for sticking up for himself. I am sure that we have all been in situations where we thought others meant us harm. You react. I love Coco's response to that pounk Gomes. No man EVER should jump on a pile and hit a guy while he is being held down. He must have known something was going to happen because he was at the mound almost about the time that Coco was.

I'll tell you why charging the mound was warranted:

Because they had no business throwing at him in the first place.

The score was already settled. They just wanted to get the last word in. Sorry. You can't start something and feel entitled to the last word.

There should be no concern about CF depth, either. Coco's suspension won't even be decided upon until Monday, unless our old pal Bob Watson decides to work a little OT this weekend. Then the suspension will be appealed. Even if Ellsbury goes on the DL, there's a good chance that Coco doesn't serve a day of his suspension until the kid is back.

I thought the same, until I saw his quotes afterward. He basically admitted that he was throwing at Crisp.



Agreed. I guess the more acceptable thing would have for Lester to throw at a Rays batter, but I don't see how there's much of a difference. I suppose throwing at another batter doesn't escalate it as much.

Some would argue that ‘soft’ is overreacting to an expected outcome (getting thrown at) which was delivered with intent but respectively (not at his head).



Yes, getting hit with a 90+mph hurts, so what.…so does fouling a ball off your foot. Getting hit by pitches is an inherent risk that one takes when one decides to become a baseball player and to step into a batter's box everyday for a living. What also hurts is getting cold cocked in the face with a closed fist or getting pummeled while on the bottom of a pile during a brawl.

Look, all I'm saying is that getting hit is simply part of the game, always has been. I acknowledge that there’s extenuating circumstances that are being rightfully considered here but if every player who were thrown at intentionally were to charge the mound….well, the game would simply be a mess.

When the Sox retaliate against the Yankees next month for throwing behind Manny, I just hope A-Rod or Jeter understand this concept and take their base vs. charging Beckett, or whoever it is that delivers the blow.

VRI -Getting hit with an intentionally thrown at you ball has a different impact on your emotional state than fouling a frigging ball off your foot. Apples and Oranges dude.

Aslo, charging the mound may be stupid, but it ain't "soft".

Just because he knew it was coming doesn't change the fact that it wasn't justified though. When the Sox throw at Arod or Jeter it will be to retaliate. Coco was retaliating so the Rays made it so the Sox owed them one after they hit Coco. If he didn't charge the mound then a Sox pitcher should have hit one of their players. The Rays started it and then kept it going.

underplayed in all this is that Lester later hit a guy and threw behind another.

so I have a feeling it's not over.

Didn't that make the team that is closer in the standings, and therefore the team that's more of a threat, lose?

I'm actually glad this all happened. All season I've been looking at the Devil Rays in the standings and thinking "Bah, it's only Tampa". Now I have a genuine hatred from Maddon, Crawford and Gomes. It makes the whole thing more fun. Hate for a sports fan is a good thing. The proof of that is in the NBA Finals. Granted, you'd all be pumped either way, but wouldn't playing the Jazz or the Suns make it a little less fun?

Ditto. I even changed my avatar, for those that have avatars turned off for some reason. Unless Coco comes up with a huge hit like JD's against the Indians, I think this is his defining moment as a Red Sox. That's it, Coco became a true Red Sox last night.Maddon was considered for the Red Sox manager job that Tito got? Another good decision by Theo and whoever else had a hand in the selection. Maddon...

This is probably best for another thread but I suppose that's one way of looking at it.
However, I have a feeling that I'm not in the minority here in perceiving the Yanks as a far greater threat than the Jays, esp. as the trading deadline isn’t yet behind us and the Yanks still have key players on the DL.

As Malzone 64 posted in the 08' Yank thread yesterday:



06-04-2008: 30-29

As you're well aware, the Yanks made the playoffs each of these seasons.

Back on topic: I concur and the heightened emotion, at least from the perspective of the fan base, will make watching games played in the Trop much more tolerable through the remainder of the season. Man, I hate that park.

It might be if your name is Robin Ventura and you decide to charge Nolan Ryan.

He made that fake for first base so that the catcher wouldn't be able to make a shoestring tackle as he's running to the mound. He wanted to create a little distance so he could get a shot in against Shields. He said as much in the interview... kind of a clever move, if you ask me.I agree with the "man up" sentiment expressed by some. This is what baseball's all about, and the game's history is replete with this kind of stuff. Plus, we're not privy to nearly everything that has been said and done between these teams in their history. They clearly have hard feelings. Coco obviously did not appreciate that Bartlett put the knee down, and retaliated how he felt was appropriate, although Iwamura was the one covering the bag. Tampa Bay wanted to get the last word the following day, and I'm perfectly fine with how Coco responded. It's up to him. With the benefit of hindsight, the timing of losing him for several games isn't welcome, but getting beaned is a personal thing, and there's a good chance there's more behind the scenes. Don't forget Pedroia got plunked pretty good... unintentionally, I'm sure, but perhaps that was on Coco's mind as well.I love a good beanball war, as long as no one is throwing at anyone else's head (and I will credit Shields for that). Coco's comments were priceless, and the next game should be interesting. Gomes may want to keep his eye on the ball. And Crawford too, for that matter.

You're right. But listening to Yankee fans last night was insufferable. You'd think they won the World Series. Since they were crowing with a little attitude, I had to remind them, gleefully, of the standings. And Giambi, you gotta shave that thing off. You look like a kid toucher.

In ESPNDeportes http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/blogs/inde...e=enrique_rojas


The clash between Ramirez and Youkilis was the outcome of an old complaint of many club members about the repeated tantrums of Youkilis whenever one AB fails

I thought Youk wasn't playing till Ellsbury got hurt. I heard that the possible reason for the altercation was Youk didn't think Manny was involved enough with the brawl. But I do like the way Franconia and everyone else kept it quiet.

It's not just Giambi....

Damon is now sporting one too.



I can't read Spanish so I tried pasting the text into one of those free online translators. Here's the pieces that I got out of it that appeared relavant:

Yeah, IMO, Franconia is a notch or two above all other managers in this sort of thing (clubhouse managing). Get it? Franconia Notch?

From the front page of Boston.com

Breaking sports news 5:21 PM
Coco suspended 7 games for brawl
Major League Baseball has suspended Red Sox center fielder Coco Crisp for seven games after last night's fight with the Tampa Bay Rays. Sox pitcher Jon Lester was suspended five games, and first baseman Sean Casey was suspended three games.


I'd provide the link but it's not likely to be there long, it's currently (5:24 PM/Friday) posted as 'breaking news' on top of the page.

There's now a link (vs. just a banner):
Link to Extra Bases

Lester?
for what?



I'd like to be that someday...... "coach of bank"

I know and I agree. It's just that I am like Johnny Gomes. I like to hit people when they are down.

Lester and Casey? WHAT THE FCUK!!!!!!!!!

mlb.com

Gomes AND Lester get 5 games? Wow....
How does Lester get as many games as Gomes?
Somebody in MLB better do some explaining.

I saw the Lester suspension coming, but not Casey. I was hoping Gomes would get more though.

It's probably not good that that story got out. If I'm Youks now, I'm wondering who the F is going to the press with a grievance about me throwing stuff around.

Starting pitchers never get less than 5 games. Anything less than 5 means they wouldn't miss a start. They could appeal and drop the appeal the day after they pitch if they got 4 games or less.

This is more just a slap on the wrist towards Lester, he's not even missing a start, just being moved back a day.

I'm glad the coach of the bank was there because from the footage I saw before the NESN cameras left to the land for the first part of the fifth entrance, it looked as though the Dominican really wanted to kill the North American.

It's important to note here that this is not a Manny-being-Manny moment, it's a Youk-being-an-*sshole moment. He acted badly and Manny called him on it.
Dare I say Manny Ramirez has become (gasp!) a leader on the team?
Now I've seen everything.

How is Youk being an as*hole? Without a better explanation, I don't agree with the "individual > team" thing. Even with the Sox in first place, or up 6 runs in a game, there's nothing wrong with being pissed about a bad AB. I like that he's pissed aout a bad AB (as long as it doesn't cause hom t do even worse). It's not the same as if he were sulking in the dugout after a win because he only went 1 for 4.

Because of Youkilis' "custom to send bats, helmets and other objects in the cave."

Obviously Manny and other players were annoyed by his constant throwing equipment around the dugout and/or runway (whichever the cave translates into). You can be pissed about making an out, but when you start going all Paul O'Neil and start flinging helmets and bats inside a closed area, that stuff bounces every which way and people could get hurt.

Manny probably said 'hey, be careful how you put those objects in the cave!" and Youk probably responded "You should attend to your own affairs before you give me advice about how I should proceed." And then they were off and running.

The Royals used to keep a tupperware barrel inside the runway just so George Brett could beat the sh*t out of it after bad at-bats (instead of smashing toilets). Seems like Youk needs one of those.

If it's a matter of not wanting to get hit by a flying helmet, I get that.

I don't know if it was this article or a different one, but one that I read referred to it as a me-first attitude, because the team is doing well, so he shouldn't be upset if he doesn't do well.

Paul O'Neill used to do the same thing. He was mad at himself. You need those kind of players on any winning team, if only to keep everyone else on their toes. The Yanks haven't been the same since he retired.

I like it when you see an athlete who cares that much. Pisses me off when a guy like Cano makes a stupid play and just stands there with a vacant look on his face.

Spot on mate, I agree 100%.

Youk's idol growing up was Pete Rose. Youk takes every at bat, every pitch seriously. He doesn't give up an out or even a strike without battling. That's what got him to the bigs, that's what got him the nick named (though he hates it & it's never used around him) 'the Greek God of Walks'. The guy takes his job & his performance seriously. How can anyone here knock him for that? Are you kidding me? Who doesn't want a guy with that kind of intensity on his team?

I think even with the lovely translated story, we probably don't have the whole picture here. I think it might get awfully annoying is somebody is constantly complaining about getting screwed every at bat and gets pissed over it. So that could be it...OR it could only be that Youks is disappointed in himself. We don't know.

Would anyone like an official translation?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3429644

I like the other translation better.