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ComandoEep
Charlie Zink
B: August 26th, 1979
H: 6’ 1”
W: 190 lbs.
Signed: 2002 with Red Sox from the Yuma Bullfrogs of the Western Baseball League (Ind.) Assigned to Augusta Green jackets (A)

Background/College/History
Zink apparently graduated from the Savannah College of Art and Design in 2001. As a senior, he reportedly sported a 95 MPH fastball as well as a splitter, slider, and a changeup to boot. Passed over in the draft, he then went to play for the Yuma Bullfrogs in the independent Western baseball league, which now appears to be sunk.

Here’s a brief expert from the Savannah College of Art and Design’s campus newspaper written April 20, 2001. LINK

QUOTE
Zink ranked third in nation
SCAD baseball pitcher Charlie Zink may not have a great record, but his arm has led him to a national ranking this season.

Zink (1-6) is ranked third in the nation by the NCAA in total number of strikeouts. He is SCAD’s No. 1 pitcher. His fastball, mixed with a slider, split finger fastball and changeup have confounded 57 batters this year.

In addition, Zink is ranked 22nd in the country for strikeouts per inning with 11.5.


Transaction History
8/19/02 - Promoted from Augusta (A) to Sarasota (High - A)
8/1/03 - Promoted (spot start) from Sarasota to Portland (AA)
8/3/03 - Transferred back to Sarasota.
8/10/03 - Promoted to Portland permanently.

This is somewhat off-topic, but this knuckleball message board claims that Zink is an actual reader of their board. If you have a good luck message for Charlie on his way to the majors, go ahead and post it HERE
ComandoEep
Articles and Praise

This Spring, Charlie Zink decided to aim for the Majors at the command of a knuckleball and so far it has served him well. Zink spent a combined full season in High-A Sarasota after half a season in Augusta. He is now arguably the #1 prospect at AA Portland. Because he could throw 95 in college with three off speed pitches, he already has a great range in which to change speeds and a plus slider to use to confuse batters. Still, Zink throws his knuckler over 80% of the time. During Spring Training, Zink studied Tim Wakefield’s starts and was taken under Wakefield’s wing as a student. He also talked with the Niekros to learn about the knuckleball. Below are a number of articles about Zink’s transition to the knuckleball.


July 18th, 2003

LINK

QUOTE
There is one guy worthy of note on the Red Sox: Charlie Zink. You may look for him in vain on the Top 30 prospect list, though that may change. We saw him last Friday at Vero. Looked at his record, before the game-5-9 with an ERA over 4, and some 50 W in 85 IP. First batter, I notice something. He's got a hitch in his delivery, I tell Kirkwood. Plants his foot, then throws. First batter gets an infield hit; Joel Guzman triples, and Loney grounds out. 2 runs already. Then it hits me-this is Tim Wakefield. Can't remember if other knucklers do it like that-the lead foot hits, and then he throws. But Wakefield sure does. Zink then proceeds to fan Franklin Gutierrez and Willie Aybar on knucklers that have them shaking their heads. He goes 7, allowing just 2 more hits and 1 walk, fanning 6. Dominating performance. I go home and send an EMAIL to Gullo about him and look him up on the web. He wasn't even drafted. The whole story raises so many questions. The kid threw 95 in college, with a slider, changeup and a splitter. Got to be in a major program, right?? Wrong. He went to Savannah College of Art and Design (SCAD to its students). What?? Must have had a killer record there, right?? No. His senior year, his team was 11-31, and at one point, he was 1-6. That one victory ended the 46-game winning streak of that well-known power, Savannah State. And get this: The coach at SCAD was Luis Tiant. What is a kid that throws 95, with other pitches doing at SCAD? For that matter, what is Luis Tiant doing coaching SCAD? And how could a team coached by Luis Tiant go 11-31? How could a pitcher with that arsenal and Luis Tiant as a coach go 1-6? Anyway, Zink did not get drafted in 2001, despite the arsenal. He spent a little time at Yuma in an Indy league, and shows up in 2002 with the Red Sox. Despite his lack of pro experience, they send him to full season ball at Augusta as a reliever. He flourishes. ERA of 1.68 in 48 innings; 42 H, and a BB/K ratio of 16/48. Gets a late-season look at Sarasota in the Florida State League, allowing 0 earned runs and 2 H in 9 innings, with 11 K's. Still throwing conventionally. So, with no pro experience, he pitched well in Low A and very well in a cameo at High A. Like every pitcher in the world, he fooled around with the knuckler in college, and the Sox say, fool around with it some in Spring training; might make a great complementary pitch. He likes it so well, he decides to go the hard route of becoming a full-time knuckler. And they convert him back to a starter, even though he had success as a reliever with a strong conventional repertoire. Go figure. So this is his first year throwing the knuckler, and from his season thus far, this is a guy to watch. He will be 24 in August, but age means little to a knuckler. He was probably not on the Red Sox radar screen before the season, or else they wouldn't have made such a radical change. Bet he is now.


Here is a story featuring Zink from the Boston Globe on 8/10/03, the day of Zink’s promotion to AA: LINK

QUOTE
MINOR LEAGUE NOTEBOOK
Zink gets grip on knuckler
By Bob Hohler, Globe Staff, 8/10/2002

Like a prized heirloom, the knuckleball has been passed down from the likes of Hoyt Wilhelm and brothers Joe and Phil Niekro to the game's reigning king of the pitch, Tim Wakefield.
And Wakefield has done his part not only to save the knuckler from extinction but to keep it in the hands of a Red Sox prospect: Charlie Zink.
Like Wakefield, who was 23 when he started learning the knuckler as a way to stay in professional baseball after he flopped as a hitter in the Pirates organization, Zink was 23 in spring training when the Sox persuaded him to abandon his traditional pitching style for the knuckleball.
A hard-throwing righthander, Zink was signed last year as an undrafted free agent on the recommendation of Luis Tiant, his former coach at Savannah College of Art and Design. He fared well in his pro debut, going 1-2 with a 1.41 ERA in 30 relief appearances last season at Single A Augusta and Sarasota.
But the Sox figured his best shot at making the majors was mastering the knuckleball. Enter Wakefield. Several times in spring training, Zink studied Wakefield's outings, then received private tutorials. ''It's kind of neat to mentor somebody and try to keep the art going,'' Wakefield said.
Zink has put the lessons to good use. After going 7-9 with a 3.90 ERA in 24 outings for Sarasota and ranking second in the South Atlantic League with 136 innings, he was promoted to Double A Portland, where he surrendered two runs over 5 1/3 innings while striking out seven last Monday in his debut. He has held batters to a .241 average while trying to master his command of the knuckleball. He has walked 68 in 141 1/3 innings and struck out 101.
Even though Wakefield will be 39 when his current contract expires in 2005, he may still have a couple more years left since the most successful knuckleballers have remained effective in their 40s. He has encouraged Zink to follow in his footsteps.
''It's just a matter of doing it consistently enough,'' Wakefield said. ''He just needs to get used to throwing it in a game and knowing how to get it over the plate and knowing how to make it move a little more. The more he does it, the better he's going to be.''


Here’s another article from the Marin Independent Journal written 8/13/03, which focuses a little more on Wakefield but is still interesting: LINK

QUOTE
Knuckleballers a dying breed
By Ryan Metcalfe, IJ reporter

OAKLAND - Boston Red Sox knuckleball pitcher Tim Wakefield falls into the same category as the cowboy and the record album. People may see them as a dying breed, but there will always be a room in baseball for knuckleball pitchers, vinyl and someone to punch cattle.
Wakefield turned 37 last week and he seems to be in the prime of his career as the preeminent knuckleballer in baseball. There aren't many left, but tomorrow's scheduled starter against the A's is part of both the past and future of baseball's rarest and most difficult pitch to hit.
Wakefield digs two bent fingers into the ball and extends the fingers as he releases it. The idea is to get it to leave his hand with no spin. The aerodynamics of the air brushing past the ball's seams can result in wacky, unpredictable fluttering.
"It is something that you have to continue to work on," he said. "It is something you have to experiment with try to make better or be more consistent with it. You constantly have to adjust just to stay up here."
The 1945 Washington Senators - depleted by players serving in World War II - had a rotation of four knuckleball pitchers, but there have been only a few in every generation. The only other knuckleballer of Wakefield's generation is Steve Sparks, now with Detroit.
In the 1950s, Hoyt Wilhelm established a Hall of Fame career with the knuckleball and in the '60s Phil Niekro followed. There was also Phil's brother, Joe Niekro, and Charlie Hough through the '70s and early '80s. Tom Candiotti followed, bridging the gap to Wakefield, but it was starting to look as if there would be no one to continue the brotherhood.
"In the course of baseball there really haven't been a whole lot of people who throw it and I don't know why," Wakefield said. "My philosophy is nobody is going to get drafted out of high school or college because they throw it
because they are so worried about the radar gun.
"It is a feel pitch and a lot of organizations don't like the unknown about it. When it is going good, you can make it look easy and it can be embarrassing to the hitters. When it is going bad it can look really bad out there. It is a matter of an organization having faith and sticking with a guy. This organization has had a lot of faith in me going through the tough times and has not given up on me."
Wakefield, who set the Florida Tech record for home runs in a season (22) and in a career (40), was drafted as a first baseman in 1988. The Pirates organization didn't have much optimism for his future as a hitter, but he managed to hang on by showing the club his knuckleball. Three years later, he was the Pirates' top pitcher in the 1992 playoffs as a rookie, picking up two wins in the NLCS.
The next season he was sent back to the minors after posting a 6-11 record with a 5.61 ERA - a far cry from the 8-1, 2.15 he posted as a rookie. He continued to struggle or the next season until his hometown Red Sox signed him.
In 1995, he rebounded with a 16-8 mark and a 2.95 ERA. The Red Sox have stuck with him as he has posted ERAs from 2.81 to 5.48 the past seven seasons, always eating up innings and usually picking up more wins than losses.
Wakefield and the Red Sox hope to be the source of league's next knuckleballer. Since the late '90s, Wakefield has helped hone the knuckleball skills of Jared Fernandez, who at 31 was called up by the Houston Astros this month. Fernandez has bounced up and down the past three seasons between the minors and majors, playing for the Reds and Astros after the Red Sox let him become a minor-league free agent in 2000.
The Sox may have given up on Fernandez, but there are now taking stock in Charlie Zink, who was promoted from Class-A Sarasota to Double-A Portland this month and has compiled an 8-10 mark with a 3.83 ERA.
"We are excited about what Charlie has been able to do this year," Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein said. "He has come a long way. We would love to have another knuckleballer on the team in a couple of years."
Of course, they aren't easy to find or develop.
"Charlie wasn't a knuckleballer at first and Wakefield was an infielder who became a knuckleballer once his career as a hitter wasn't going anywhere," Epstein said. "Charlie was a regular pitcher who had a great knuckleball and we thought he was a little short as a regular pitcher, but our organizational guys did a great job recognizing him as a knuckleballer and with a great attitude and a lot of hard work he's taken his game to where it is."
Wakefield feels a kinship to Zink and almost an obligation to help knuckleballers succeed.
"I hope he can continue working on it," Wakefield said of Zink.
Of course, hitters might prefer that there aren't any more knuckleballers coming through the ranks. The current A's roster has a composite .237 average against Wakefield (32 hits in 135 at-bats, including 30 strikeouts).
About the only A's player who has success against Wakefield is catcher Ramon Hernandez (4-for-12, two homers, a double and seven RBIs), and he offers little explanation for his success.
"You want them to get the ball up a little because the high ones are easier to hit," Hernandez said, "but even then they can sink so much that you can't get hit."
Even if he sees Wakefield well at the plate, Hernandez hopes the A's don't develop a knuckleballer anytime soon.
"I don't want to catch one of those guys," he says.


Here is an article written 8/11/03, following Zink’s second AA start and his first since his permanent callup. Article care of www.Mainetoday.com. Full article here: LINK

QUOTE
It didn't seem like a fair deal for the Portland Sea Dogs when they lost a top pitching prospect, Jorge De La Rosa, to Triple-A. In return they got an undrafted pitcher from Class A who is tinkering with a knuckleball.
But Charlie Zink could become a big acquisition for the Sea Dogs.
Zink (1-0) threw a four-hitter over 6 2/3 innings to help Portland to a 5-3 victory Sunday against the Binghamton Mets before 6,975 at Hadlock Field.

To be a playoff team, Portland needs pitching, which makes Zink's performance so important. De La Rosa will be missed, but Zink can provide a lift. He's the only knuckleball pitcher most Eastern League teams will oppose.
"He's the only guy like that we've faced all year," said Mets designated hitter Chris Basak. "It's something we're not used to. You have to go out and find an approach that works. It didn't seem like we were able to do that today."
Zink, 23, wasn't drafted after college in 2002, but the Red Sox signed him on the advice of his former coach at Savannah College of Art and Design - Luis Tiant.
Zink messed with a knuckleball last season "but only with two outs and no one on," he said.
"Then in spring training they said maybe we should work on it," Zink said. "They said I'd probably take a step back and then take two steps forward. I went for it."
In spring training, Zink spent a few days with Red Sox knuckleballer Tim Wakefield.
"I was so raw then, trying to throw it too hard," Zink said. "But less is more with the knuckleball. It's fun to throw."
Zink went 7-9 in Class A Sarasota with a 3.90 ERA. The Red Sox see so much promise in Zink, they plan to send him to the Arizona Fall League for top prospects.


Here is an article written 8/16/03, following Zink’s third AA start. Article care of www.MaineToday.com. Full article here: LINK

QUOTE
NEW BRITAIN, Conn. — Portland Sea Dogs pitcher Charlie Zink converted to the knuckleball after topping out in the 90 mph range in Class A last season. The New Britain Rock Cats are wishing he stuck to his fastball.
Zink made his third Double-A start a gem by tossing no-hit ball through seven innings Friday night as the Sea Dogs shut out the Rock Cats 8-0 before an overflow crowd of 6,521 at New Britain Stadium.
Zink (2-1) lost the no-hitter when Matt Scanlon slapped a single through the box and into center field on the first pitch of the eighth. The ball clipped Zink on his pitching hand and he left to a standing ovation.
"I overreacted. I had more time than I thought," Zink said. "I went down so fast and saw it shoot to the right. My hand was getting ready to go in my glove and grab it. It hit my knuckles and my fingers went numb.
"I wanted to keep throwing but they didn't want me to throw anymore."
Zink threw 79 pitches, walked none and struck out three.
"If I'm throwing it for strikes I'm real happy," Zink said. "If I'm getting it over I don't have much to worry about. If I get it over, the hitters get themselves out."
Left-hander James Johnson came on to retire six straight to notch his fifth save.
Zink was schooled on the art of throwing the knuckler in spring training by Tim Wakefield, who was a disciple of Rock Cats Manager Stan Cliburn when Cliburn managed at Watertown in the short season New York-Penn League in 1988.
"He reminded me of a Wakefield performance when I had him in (Class) A ball," Cliburn said. "He could throw 3-1 knuckleballs over for strikes. You've got to tip your hat to a kid who can do that."
ComandoEep
On his near no-no 8/30/03

QUOTE
ZINK'S NEAR NO-HITTER KEEPS PORTLAND IN PLAYOFF RACE
Knuckleballer Loses No-Hitter with Two Out in Ninth Inning of 2-1 Win over New Haven
08/30/2003



Charlie Zink carried a no-hitter two outs into the ninth inning and allowed a run on two hits over 8 2/3 innings as the Portland Sea Dogs nipped the New Haven Ravens 2-1 on Saturday afternoon at Hadlock Field.

Matt Logan hit a bloop double with two outs in the ninth inning in front of diving left fielder Kevin Haverbusch to break up the no-hitter. Zink left to a standing ovation after giving up an RBI single to Shawn Fagan. Scott Aldred picked up the final out for his seventh save.

Zink (3-2) allowed three walks and two hits over 8 2/3 innings for his third Double-A win. He also carried a no-hitter into the eighth inning in a start on August 15 at New Britain.


That's my boy
ComandoEep
Organizational Honors

QUOTE
SARASOTA RED SOX (A)
Righthander Charlie Zink, 24, logged 175.1 innings this season between Sarasota and Portland, going 10-11 with a 3.80 ERA in 30 games. His 10 wins tied for second among Red Sox minor leaguers and his 112 strikeouts were 4th-most in the organization.


LINK


Neyer labels Zink a #1 pitching prospect: 11/10/03

Here's a great article on Zink by Rob Neyer, who forsees Charlie as a top pitching prospect with #1 upside.

QUOTE
By Rob Neyer
ESPN.com

I have seen the future of the knuckleball, and his name is Zink. Charlie Zink.


This weekend, I was in Phoenix for Ron Shandler's First Pitch Arizona, a symposium for serious fantasy baseball owners. I enjoy the symposium, but the real draw is the baseball, as the Arizona Fall League is in full swing. And Saturday afternoon in Mesa, I was treated to a dream pitching matchup: the Mesa Desert Dogs' Charlie Zink vs. the Mesa Solar Sox's Dewon Brazelton.


Most prospect hounds would be excited about Brazelton, and he was impressive, showing off a solid fastball, a good slider, and a killer changeup while striking out nine Dogs in five innings. But it was Charlie Zink I wanted to see, because Zink, a Red Sox farmhand, is easily the best young knuckleball pitcher in the world. He didn't disappoint, either, allowing just one hit and one walk in five innings.


Zink hadn't fared well in the AFL before Saturday, in part (I suspect) because the knuckleball doesn't dance its normal dance at the Valley's somewhat lofty altitude. But I don't think the Red Sox will hold it against him. 2003 was just Zink's second minor-league season, and here's how he's done so far:



Age Level IP H HR BB SO ERA
22 A 57 44 1 19 59 1.42
23 A/AA/AFL 201 170 16 91 128 3.94



Now, let's look at Tim Wakefield's first three seasons as a knuckleballer:



Age Level IP H HR BB SO ERA
22 A- 40 30 30 21 42 3.40
23 A 190 187 24 85 127 4.73
24 AA 183 155 13 51 120 2.90



Wakefield and Zink were both born in August, which makes comparing them particularly appropriate. And Zink is clearly ahead of Wakefield at the same age. Zink was better at 22, he was better at 23, and at both ages he was pitching against tougher competition. Does this mean that Zink's going to follow Wakefield's career path? Of course not. Wakefield broke through at 24, in Double-A, and there's no guarantee that Zink will.


But Zink will open next season in Double-A, and he'll be 24. As near as I can tell, here's a list of the last three pitchers who had good knuckleballs when they were 24 years old, along with how many games they won in the major leagues:


Wakefield, 116 (so far)
Charlie Hough, 216
Phil Niekro, 318


(Actually, when Niekro was 24 he was in U.S. Army. But he was a pretty good minor-league knuckleballer at 23 and 25.)


The point here is that not many pitchers can throw a knuckleball for strikes while in their early 20s, and the ones who can generally enjoy long major-league careers.


But nobody seems to realize how good Charlie Zink might be. Scouts and writers see Charlie Zink and they think, "Oh, isn't that cute. He throws a knuckleball. If everything works out for him, he's got a chance to be a decent pitcher someday."


One writer, evaluating the Mesa Desert Dogs, listed Zink as a "Sleeper Pitcher" and concluded, "Future #5 Starter/Reliever."


Another writer admitted that "Zink is a very interesting pitcher," and recommended, "Keep an eye on him."


Wrong, guys. I'm going to keep both eyes on him, because he's going to be a good major-league pitcher, a better major-league pitcher than the great majority of the pitchers in the Arizona Fall League who are considered better prospects.


Among all the pitchers in the Arizona Fall League, Zink has the best chance, by far, of enjoying a healthy career, and (to a lesser extent) he also has the best chance of enjoying a long and productive career. Baseball today isn't particularly friendly to knuckleball pitchers -- it's too easy for a mistake to become a home run -- so I don't think it's all that likely that Zink will become a star. If you're looking for a star in the Arizona Fall League, your better bets are Dewon Brazelton, Neal Cotts, or Boof Bonser.


But those guys all have the talent to be No. 1 starters in the major leagues, and Charlie Zink is not that far behind them. I think Zink is likely to have a career something like Tim Wakefield's. And he might be Phil Niekro.


LINK
ComandoEep
Zink ranked as #4 Red Sox Prospect per Rotoworld 12/1/03

QUOTE
4. Charlie Zink - RHP - Age 24 - ETA: July 2005
7-9, 3.90 ERA, 123 H, 94/64 K/BB in 136 IP for Single-A Sarasota
3-2, 3.43 ERA, 21 H, 18/14 K/BB in 39 1/3 IP for Double-A Portland
1-2, 4.91 ERA, 26 H, 16/13 K/BB in 25 2/3 IP for Mesa Desert Dogs (AFL)

Zink, who went undrafted as a conventional pitcher, became a full-time knuckleballer last season and showed a remarkable talent for the pitch, even if his minor league numbers weren’t exactly overwhelming.  By emulating Tim Wakefield as much as he can, he gets consistent movement on the knuckler.  He doesn’t have Wakefield’s control, but if he keeps making progress, he could be able to help the Red Sox in the second half of 2004 or in 2005.


LINK
Naehring Nirvana
Eep,

You continue to do a great job covering your chosen prospect Zink.

I like Zink and I imagine Theo really likes Zink.

The problem is that Wakefield is headed down the road of Guy Who Retires a Sox.

And, he's headed down the road of Guy Who Pitches Well Into His 40's.

Is it possible that one day the MLB will have 2 knuckleballers, and they will BOTH be pitching for the Boston Red Sox? Highly unlikely, even though Zink might be a cheap, effective ML pitcher. How many years will he need to develop at the ML level however? The pressure of Boston may not be the place for this young knuckleballer to mature.

At one point it seemed Theo would hold on to all his top prospects, in that they could become cheap MLB roster-fillers in a year or two. Well now, Fossum and DLR, who could have been cheap lefties out of the 'pen, Freddy Sanchez, who could have filled a hole at 2B. Only Youkilis, Hanley Ramirez, Shoppach, Spann, and AMart remain for top prospects.

Will Zink become "Little Buddy" to Wakefield's "Skipper?" Or is he merely another one of Theo's trading chips in his quest for a World Series ring at any cost?
Loch Doun
Wakefield will probably take Zink under his wing and turn him into a nice pitcher. Zink admires Wakefield which is why he is unlikely to be traded.
ComandoEep
Thanks NN, although moving Hall's profile will take a long time since there will be so many broken links...also I haven't even started with Arias. The 20+ errors at third last year plus the scarcity of bkgd info scared me away a bit. I'll get going on him soon though wink.gif

I'd have to imagine Zink is going to be kept because of 1) the Wakefield factor and 2) he doesn't have a whole lot of trade value yet. Keep in mind this guy was off everyone's charts, coming out of a low-profile college, undrafted, and then pitching marginally with the standard arsenal. He hasn't put up phenomenal numbers; but, a mid-season promotion to AAA will raise some eyebrows I suppose.

I just don't see trading arguably our top pitching prospect now when he is more valuable in our own eyes than everyone else's
Zink's Sake
Obviously, I've tried to honor this up-and-coming Sox knuckler with my RR handle. I'll probably head up to Portland during '04 to see this guy pitch for real. Good luck Charlie.
ComandoEep
Awesome - I'd love to hear a brief scouting report if you do get to see him pitch smile.gif

I'm sure I'll be up to Portland as well over the Summer, but I can't guarantee myself a Zink start
ComandoEep
Zink gipped with a #8 rank on baseballHQ.com's Top 15 Sox prospect list



QUOTE
8. Charlie Zink RHP…..24…..2002 FA Savannah College of Arts and Design
Strengths: 63-71 MPH knuckle-ball and 84-88 MPH two-seam fastball. Deceptive delivery
Weaknesses: Command
Comments: He made the transition from conventional pitcher to a knuckle-baller in late-2002, and worked extensively with Tim Wakefield during spring training. A smallish-type pitcher, he didn’t show a lot of stamina or performance, despite a fastball topping-out at 94 MPH. His knuckle-ball moves well, as you would expect, and has toned-down the velocity of his fastball to make his arm speed more deceptive, but struggles with command and consistency from outing-to-outing... There is no way to project knuckle-ball pitchers, but his name should be tucked-away for future reference.


Considering guys like Murton ranked ahead of him, I think this is total crap. Zink has more experience than all but 2 of the Sox prospects, has shown considerable progress through 2003 and had an impressive AFL stint. He will (by my prediction) be an '05 midseason callup and on the Sox in '06, should we keep him. That's more valuable to us ATM than guys like Matt Murton (for example) at the moment.
Naehring Nirvana
Hey Commando,

Well, alot has happened to this little board, hasn't it?

Can't wait for those Game Threads!

NN
BCLovesOrtiz
Intriguing thought about the Sox having MLB's only 2 knuckleballers... assuming Sparks retires in a year or so... but if Zink's first full season was 2006, and he was used out of the pen for a few years the way Wake was at first, it seems that he'd provide the Sox with a very intruigins situation, to say the least. Wake probably can, and will, pitch into his 40's assuming he's healthy, and 2 knuckleballers on one staff would be a first, but if they're both that good, why the hell not? They're both in the lower range of salary and provide great versatility, two things the Sox ownership look for.
ComandoEep
Haha, yup NN. It looks like this Summer the game threads won't just look like this:

RedSoxAnni: (Lineups)
ComandoEep: Ok, we're gonna win.
NN: Yeah.
ComandoEep: Come on, get it together.
NN: Yeah.
ComandoEep: ...
NN: Dammit, Grady. Kill me now.
ComandoEep: I would like a labotomy right now, and a fork in the eyeball.
NN: Yeah
RedSoxAnni: (Box Score)

It sure did get lonely (and frustrating) in some of those threads tongue.gif


Re: Zink and Wake on the same staff: I would like to see it happen, although until Zink can improve his command I'm expecting him on the shuttle bus between Pawtucket and Boston a la Fossum or Shiell. He has great potential and I think working with Wake is helping him a lot, but the amount of HBPs/HRs/BBs makes me a little uneasy. They are not always bad numbers game to game, but he is also very inconsistent in this area. I have to get my website back up so I can put up the game-by-game logs I had going with him. Oh, and I need to add AFL stats. Dammit, I'm falling behind here!
Naehring Nirvana
Well, Commando, we are the Game Thread Soldiers!!!

I surely would not have 400+ posts without them!

[That was funny, but come on--- I contributed more than that? Didn't I?]

rolleyes.gif
ComandoEep
I didn't want to stick words in your mouth...and yes, I'm sure I'd be WELL short of the RR HOF without those game threads...or posts like these for that matter rolleyes.gif
ComandoEep
QUOTE
Can Zink be another Wakefield for Boston?

By John Sickels
Special to ESPN.com


Matt B. from Sacramento writes: The Red Sox have a knuckle-balling prospect by the name of Charlie Zink. I've read varying things about his future, some, such as Rob Neyer, suggest he could be a big-time major league contributor, while others see him as a possible fifth starter/swingman. What are your thoughts, and is he a prospect?


The Sox signed Zink as an undrafted free agent in 2002. He is 24 years old, has 238 professional innings to his credit, with a 3.26 ERA and 177/101 K/BB ratio. Most of that has been at the A-ball level. But he did put in 39 innings in Double-A last year, posting a 3.43 ERA, though with a mediocre 18/14 K/BB ratio. His walk rate isn't bad at all, but his strikeouts are pretty low.


Rob Neyer is a very good friend of mine. He admits himself that he has something of a knuckleball fetish, and he knows more about the pitch and those who rely on it than I do. He could be right about Zink. Statistically, his numbers aren't super-impressive, but the knuckleball is a hard thing to predict. Zink could turn into Tim Wakefield. But he could just as easily be Steve Sparks. We need to see more to be sure.


Wakefield's minor league track record was erratic, and given the nature of the knuckleball, normal predictive methods don't necessarily apply to guys like this. Zink is certainly a prospect, and bears close watching. But I don't think we have a firm read on how good he will or won't be at this point.



LINK[
Lassaller
Did anyone get a chance to see him sign autographs on the 12th?
Sox in Sacto
I guess I don't know enough about the knuckleball to comment. Maybe you guys can clue me in.

Do different knuckleball pitchers throw different knuckleballs? Or do they just vary in skill level?

I.E. Are there different paths that the traditional knuckleball takes, and do the multiple deliveries of the pitch affect how the ball moves?

I realize I'm not doing a great job explaining my question, I guess it boils down to, If Wake starts a game, and Zink comes in to relieve, is it going to screw with the batters heads? Or just end up as more of the same?


(I havent pitched a knuckle since 7th grade, guess I'm the definition of "rusty" smile.gif )
ComandoEep
My general understanding of the knuckleball is that the only major variation is whether it is thrown with the fingernails or the actual knuckles (most use the nails). The ball moves very little (floats to the plate with less than one rotation) and Wakefield himself has said he has little idea where it is going. The knuckleball seems much more effective indoors, probably due to the lack of wind and the moderate temperature. I'll try and dig up some websites that have more detailed/correct explanations in the near future.
Lassaller
I'm a volleyball coach so please allow me to explain via the floater serve, essentially volleyball's equivalent to the knuckler.

The floater starts with a toss with no spin. You hit the ball in the center so it leaves the server with no spin. If you can continue to read the brand name on the volleyball as it leaves you did it right.

Pitchers attempt to do the same thing by digging into the seams with their nails (or grabbing with their knuckles) and releasing with a stiff wrist. Snapping the wrist in either sport leads to ball spin (and therefore the knucker is the opposite of the curve).

Spin helps determine where the ball goes by influencing the surrounding air flow. Without getting into a major physics lesson, the air on the inside of the spin, where the spin helps the air pass by the ball, has less pressure against the ball than on the outside, where air fights against the spin. Thus the ball curves towards the inside.

If you really want to get in depth, either search for the Bernoulli Principle or check here (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0807244.html). They use water as their example but with some reflection I'm sure you can transfer the concept.

Ah, but what if a ball has no spin? Well, between the player and the target are many unseen air currents and pockets. Since the ball isn't spinning the air acts upon it instead. It's kind of like a bumpy airplane ride -- only the airplane is a large ball without flaps for stabilizers. Whee!

So if it's done right by both Wakefield and Zink one should follow the other with no difference. The ball moves in a path of least resistance, a form of chaos theory in sixty feet. Temperature, wind, and humidity all have their role. Every ball is thrown the same by all knucklers (though the release points might be different) and every ball results in a different path to the catcher's mitt. Well, hopefully it winds up in the catcher's mitt.
Sox in Sacto
That's fantastic. I knew the ball went for a wild ride whenever it left Wake's hand, but I had no idea why. I suppose technique is all you really need for a knuckler, technique and a decent second pitch.

Awesome post.
Lassaller
Very entertaining article in the Globe on Zink:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...ing_the_motion/
knuckleballhq
This is Dave Clark of KnuckleballHQ, answering your questions about the knuckleball.
It takes a rotation of only 15 degrees to make a knuckleball suddenly do something entirely different. The more rotation, the less ability the ball has to move further, a little too much and it's a BP fastball. How it's gripped and released and at what velocity is entirely the choice of the skilled knuckleball pitcher and there are no cut-and-dried grips or deliveries that consistently create the same kind of knuckleball from pitcher to pitcher. Most of them seem to settle in to either a big swoopy type or a more locatable shimmying type. It takes a lot of personal experimentation to come up with a grip, delivery, and delivery speed(s) that work for that individual pitcher. As you can tell, a knuckleball is therefore unlike any other pitch, and it's a weapon only for a select few. Truly skilled pichers can vary speeds and vary the type to some extent; higher velocities tend to straighten them out, and high-arcing tosses tend to swoop more. Almost all of them dive, sometimes a couple of feet.
I'm coming out with a book on the subject, publication date around the All-Star game, but you're welcome to log onto my site, KnuckleballHQ, and post questions and comments there: www.oddball-mall/knuckleball
--Dave C. thumbsup.gif
r00fer
Dave, thanks for the interesting info on knuckleballers. You appeared to forget the .com in the website address.

Fixed Link: Knuckleball Headquarters
Pedrozma
how is zink doing this year?
is he starting or relieving?

Ted
ComandoEep
Zink is starting for AA Portland this year (Apologies for the lack of updates, maybe I'll get around to posting recent articles/winter stats this weekend)

(3 Starts)
0-1 2.12 ERA
17 IP
15 H
9 BB / 10 Ks

I don't have the stats done yet for AFL but from memory of seeing his name in the boxes, his major problem over the winter also happened to be control. Hopefully he can harness his mystic powers and bring the walk ratio down a bit biggrin.gif
Cambridge
Zink has been sent down to Sarasota. Interestingly, he was replaced on the Portland roster by another knucleballer, lefty Joe Rogers.
ComandoEep
I'll have an update on Zink very shortly as I've been busy with school - basically, Zink lost a year as he struggled starting in Portland and was dropped back to Sarasota as mentioned above. However, I caught a blip in either BA or BP the other day in which Zink said he did NO offseason work prior to 2004 because he thought it was not required for the workload of a knuckleballer. As a result, he had trouble repeating his motion. However, he is reportedly taking it seriously now and should be looking forward to a nice bounce back year in 2005. Of course, this year did not help him at all as Portland is now packed with the likes of Papelbon/Lester/Vaughan/etc. ; it is concievable that he could be jumped to Pawtucket after early success, but not likely.
NPSoxfan
are they projecting Zink as a starter or more like Wake was when he first came up as a spot starter but mostly floting around in the pen.
ComandoEep
QUOTE(NPSoxfan @ Jan 16 2005, 09:28 PM)
are they projecting Zink as a starter or more like Wake was when he first came up as a spot starter but mostly floting around in the pen.
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He's been starting his entire pro career. However, I don't think you can slate him into a role for the Sox yet. He certainly did nothing to help his case last year. When you have a converted knuckleballer who struggles in a pivotal year to fool much of anyone at AA, it doesn't encourage you to look that far ahead. Even if he is great next year, I can't imagine we see Zink with the Sox before 2007.
NPSoxfan
has there been any word on zink this spring i remember last year they had him working with wake is he doing the same this year or is he just down in minors camp getting his work in??
SoxfaninNYC
Not sure who's prospect Zink is (Eep maybe?) so I am hoping I'm not stepping on any toes here, but after the Wake signing I started to wonder how Zink's looked so far this year. After a terrible 2004 it'd be nice to see him rebound.

I found this article: Zink Shows His Mettle on Maintoday.com but couldn't find any sort of game recaps of how he's been throwing in his two starts for Portland thus far. Any suggestions?

I did pull his stats off the Sea Dogs site (please excuse the format, I still haven't figured out how to use the code function):

Record: 2-0
ERA: 3.27
G: 2
GS: 2
IP: 11
H: 10
R: 4
ER: 4
HR: 3
HB: 3
BB: 0
SO: 3
OPP AVG: .244
AB: 41

Not as good as his 2003 numbers and not as bad as his 2004 numbers, but we all know how streaky and unpredictable knucklers can be, especially since it sounds from the article I posted above that Zinks been trying to change some things in his delivery.

Anyway, just thought I'd share what I was researching anyway.

EDIT: Just checked, Zink is, in fact, ComandoEep's prospect. Hope you don't mind what little information I could get Eep!
LooiesWindup
QUOTE(Sox in Sacto @ Jan 16 2004, 09:35 AM)
That's fantastic. I knew the ball went for a wild ride whenever it left Wake's hand, but I had no idea why. I suppose technique is all you really need for a knuckler, technique and a decent second pitch.

Awesome post.
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Slightly off-topic as Looies shares his Knuckler memories:

Back in the day when Looies was a 2nd rate little leaguer, the neighbor across the street was an ex-pitcher (made as far as a few seasons of AA, so he was better than most). Arm troubles axed the big-league ambitions, but he liked to throw BP to the boys in the 'hood and to save his arm he had a real nasty knuckler-set Looies swing back to infinity blush.gif

Actually the knuckler was good fielding practice as well... spontaneity and unpredictability does wonders for the ol' reflexes. Oh, and for a 'slow' pitch, I can still remember the knuckler booming into the fence behind me (probably 50-60mph).
RSJ
QUOTE(NPSoxfan @ Jan 16 2005, 11:28 PM)
are they projecting Zink as a starter or more like Wake was when he first came up as a spot starter but mostly floting around in the pen.
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He's pitched 8 of his 17 games out of the pen.

CODE
PITCHER W-L  ERA  G GS CG SHO SV  INN  H  R ER HR HB BB SO WP  OPA BK  AB SF SAC
C Zink  5-2 5.49 17  9  0   0  0 60.2 59 40 37  8  8 28 41  0 .258  0 229 4    3
RedSoxAnni


Andrew Neff - Sea Dogs' Zink gets a grip on knuckler

This is unbelievably hot for me. I’ve always had trouble throwing early in the year because it’s so cold, but I guess I just came in ready to throw this year," Zink said. "I’m getting real excited for when it warms up and when we get some humidity because that helps the ball dance around a little bit."

Zink, 27, already has reason for excitement as he enters tonight’s scheduled start with a 2-0 record and 1.00 ERA. In three starts, he’s walked nine batters and struck out 16 in 18 innings.

"I feel like I’m just better than hitters when I’m out there now. I’m a lot more confident and I trust myself a lot more," Zink said. "Plus this is the best shape I’ve ever been in. I’m as fit and strong as I’ve ever been and I have a more consistent knuckleball than I ever have."


RedSoxAnni
url="http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=119940&ac=PHspt"]Kevin Thomas, Portland Press Herald - Zink patiently awaits chance; Though he's stuck in Double-A, Charlie Zink is still trying to force his way into Boston's plans[/url]

"He hit a roadblock," said Ben Cherington, the Boston Red Sox player personnel chief. "It's not something we wanted to do, keeping him at this level again.

Zink, who turns 28 next month, is still in Double-A with the Portland Sea Dogs. But Zink has not allowed circumstances to slow him.

Zink (8-2) leads the team in wins and carries a 2.77 ERA. He will take part in the Eastern League All-Star game tonight in Norwich, Conn. Zink will throw his knuckleball for the Northern Division team, playing along with two teammates, shortstop Jed Lowrie and outfielder Jeff Corsaletti.

"To Charlie's credit, he's gone out there and done a good job," Cherington said. "He hasn't let (being in Portland) affect his approach.

"He's certainly put himself in a position where we want to find an opportunity to get him up there (Triple-A). When that happens, it's hard to say."

Zink pitched most of last season in Triple-A, but there has been no room for him in Pawtucket this year.

...

Zink was quickly called the next Tim Wakefield. But he had a lot to learn. He struggled mightily at times but seemed to find a groove last year, when he was 8-4 as a starter with a 3.39 ERA.

"I'm feel I'm getting to the point where I can go out every time and be effective," Zink said. "It took a long time to get to that point. A lot of times I was just praying I could get people out. Now I feel confident.

"I want to gather up all the innings I can and put together a solid year and make them do something with me."

The Red Sox will have to make a decision on Zink later this year. If Zink is not put on the 40-man roster, he could be drafted by another major league team in the Rule 5 draft in December. Zink can become a free agent after next season.

By the end of 2008, Wakefield will be 42. Knuckleball pitchers can last forever, but by then it may be time for Wakefield to go.

By then, the Red Sox may find room for Zink in Boston.
RedSoxAnni
Mike Szostak, ProJo - Tiant’s call kept Zink playing ball

Zink thought his baseball career was over after the 2001 season. He played for an independent team for two weeks, didn’t like it and quit. He returned to Savannah that fall to finish his five-year master’s degree program, play golf and study for the Law School Admission Test. Then he got the second call that changed his baseball life. Tiant had left Savannah after the ’01 season and was working for the Red Sox. They wanted to see Zink pitch.

The Red Sox wanted to see Zink throw against competition. He told them he would show up when his quarter was over, which was with two weeks left in spring training.

“I missed three weeks of camp, showed up, didn’t give up any hits or runs in six or seven innings. They signed me the final day,” he said.

Zink spent the 2002 season with Augusta and Sarasota. Warming up in the bullpen one day, his catcher, the team trainer, asked to see the knuckleball that he threw only playing catch.

“It hit him in the face, split his eye open, and that was it. I was a knuckleballer,” he said.

For the rest of that season he used the knuckler only when he had two strikes on a batter, but he threw the pitch regularly in 2003 and was a smashing success. He won 10 games, was the Red Sox minor-league pitcher of the year with Sarasota and finished the season with AA Portland. The 2004 season, however, was a learning experience. He was not in shape, developed tendonitis in his right shoulder, spent time on the disabled list and was 1-10 between Portland and Sarasota.
RedSoxAnni


Marty Dubrow - Imperfect Pitch; Charlie Zink was supposed to be the next Tim Wakefield, maybe even a star. But if the Sox' minor league knuckleballer doesn't make it this season, his Hollywood-like tale may go down as Fenway's greatest story that almost was.

Charlie Zink, whose Japanese-American grandparents were taken from their California farm and sent to an internment camp during World War II, is perched on the far left of the pitching rubber. It is the first inning of a Triple A spring-training game played before 28 fans. Zink has a 1-2 count on the leadoff hitter, Alexi Casilla. Zink goes into his compact windup and delivers the ball with a locked wrist and a short stride, like he's throwing a dart. The pitch comes in without spin at a speed that wouldn't warrant a ticket on the highway. At the last second, it drops sharply. Casilla swings feebly and misses. The ball caroms off the glove of PawSox catcher George Kottaras, who sprints after it and flips to first for the out. Hard to hit, hard to catch; things are looking good for Zink today. He has what his teammates call his "filthy" stuff. His knuckleball is on.

Almost every pitcher has experimented with the knuckler, a pitch that is subject to the laws of physics and the whims of God. When it's going well, the knuckleball can make Barry Bonds look like Barry Manilow. When it's not, it can make Fat Albert look like Albert Pujols. It is a pitch whose success is predicated on its unpredictable journey.

...

Back in 2003, he seemed destined to join Wakefield. After just one season throwing the knuckler, he became the Sox' lone top-50 prospect in Baseball Prospectus rankings. In an ESPN.com article that November, Rob Neyer dubbed him "easily the best young knuckleball pitcher in the world," saying he was "likely to have a career something like Tim Wakefield's. And he might be Phil Niekro." Then came the crash. Zink produced a 1-10 record in 2004 with an embarrassingly high ERA. He tumbled backward in the Red Sox minor league system. Early in 2005, the struggles continued: walks by the bushel, flat knucklers soaring over minor league fences.
FourthBase
Meanwhile, Zink is absolutely scorching this year.

http://firstinning.com/players/Charlie-Zink-a/

Only 5 ER and 26 H in his last 34.1 IP, with 21/8 K/BB.
RedSoxAnni
Paul Kenyon, ProJo - Pawtucket’s Zink dazzles hitters with new arsenal

“I’m throwing four pitches,” said Zink, who is 4-2 after being the winning pitcher as the PawSox beat Norfolk, 8-5, at McCoy. “I have a fastball, curve and changeup, too.”

Zink has made particular use of his fastball and changeup. His fastball is in the low 80s. His changeup is interesting because it is about the same speed as his knucklers, in the 66-71 range.

“Before I went to the knuckler, I thought the changeup was my best pitch,” Zink said.

He wanted to continue to throw the change, as well as his other pitches. But he was told he should focus on the knuckler.

This season, he struggled in his first start, giving up five earned runs in three innings in a loss to Indianapolis. Afterward, he had a conversation with Rich Sauveur, the team’s new pitching coach. It turned out to be a significant chat.
RedSoxAnni
Kevin Thomas, Press Herald - New knuckler in Boston? Zink progresses with PawSox; Adding an old pitch to his arsenal gives the former Sea Dog a new outlook this season

Not when you're Charlie Zink, who went from a fringe minor league pitcher with a decent fastball in 2002 to a knuckleball sensation in 2003. Zink came one out away from a no-hitter at Hadlock Field that season.

Still, that seems like more than five years ago.

"I had no idea what I was doing," Zink said. "I just threw it up there. If I got people out, I got people out. I didn't know how to fix anything."

A major fix came after that first start on April 5. New Pawtucket pitching coach Rich Sauveur, a former major league reliever who threw a knuckleball, asked Zink if he could throw a change-up.

"Yeah. I have a good one," Zink told him. "But I stopped throwing it."


RedSoxAnni


Joshua Robinson - A Knuckleballer Is Waiting to Rise

Throwing at 65 miles an hour, Zink viewed his arm as a music box that he could wind up and play at any time. After a breakout season in 2003, when he was named the Red Sox’ minor league pitcher of the year, he developed a cocksure attitude, a casual work ethic and eventually tendinitis in his right shoulder that effectively cost him the next season. Now, after a couple of years of maturing and mesmerizing hitters, Zink and his knuckleball are on the cusp of the majors.

“It was good for me to fail,” he said. “I had so much success, I didn’t think I had to do anything. I was immature. I was going out all the time. I figured I could just throw up a knuckleball, and no one would be able to hit it.”

Zink, who is scheduled to start Tuesday night at Lehigh Valley, is 7-2 for the PawSox with a 2.21 earned run average, far better than his 1-10 season in 2004. He said there had already been talk of promotion three times this year.

Two weeks ago, his schedule was altered so he was pitching on the same days Tim Wakefield was. And with the Red Sox possibly in pursuit of the Indians’ C. C. Sabathia, Zink could prove a valuable trading chip.

“That knuckleball that he has, he can pitch in the big leagues right now,” Pawtucket’s pitching coach, Rich Sauveur, said. “There are teams in the major leagues right now that could use him in their starting rotation. It’s just a matter of somebody trusting him to be a starter.”
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