[ARZJake]

In the World of the late Al Davis it was never the fault of any one player or group of players. It was always the fault of the Head coach. Thus 8 head coaches over a ten year span makes my point. I believe after todays loss to the Yankees, we can officially say, Terry Francona should not be held at fault for last seasons collapse.

Dating back to last Sept a record of 11-30 defined the outcome of todays game in a nutshell. I have been a fan for thirty plus yrs and cannot think of another game where "being embarrassed" overides any error, dropped ball or lack of talent. 15 runs in 3 IP by your bullpen is not only unheard of, it's down right un-exceptable.

There has to be a problem in the Clubhouse. Whether it be player vs player, players vs player, players vs management or players vs ownership?
We can sit here until were blue in the face and discuss all the dead money, all the free agent money, all the injuries, all the trades, all the the lack of retaining free agents, all the callups, all the lack of callups but at the end of day it comes down to the 25 players in the dugout this season. If all 25 are not on the same page then I believe you have an issue.

Maybe this post is mute? Maybe it's just "lack of talent". I don't think so. There are some talented players on the field. In the end it has to fall on Management and Ownership to adress what is going on since last Sept and fix it!
I believe Bobby V is in over his head and should not have been hired. To hold Bobby V accountable for a 4-10 start would be pulling an Al Davis.

Like the direct tv commercial " don't pull an Al Davis", address the clubhouse and find out where the problem is. If it takes a PR hit by trading a cornerstone for cents on the dollar or waivers, by god after today you gotta FIX IT!

[The Ghost of Ned Martin]

ARZJake, on 21 April 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

There has to be a problem in the Clubhouse. Whether it be player vs player, players vs player, players vs management or players vs ownership?

Bingo.

This team is forever infected after what happened last September, According to some reports, Josh Beckett (and perhaps others) seem more focused on finding out who the sources were for the "Chicken and Beer in the clubhouse," stories that dominated the off season than rededicating himself after his embarrassing September performance. He needs to go.

They need to rid the clubhouse of those who carried last years gutless collapse into this year. Maybe guys like Adrian Gonzalez are too accustomed and accepting of losing. Blow this ************ up. Now. And sell the team. The Ghouls, Rosanne Barr's Bitch and Larry #$#$#$# have milked enough money out of us. Get the **** out. Go sell you snake oil somewhere else.

And take Valentine the Clown with you.

I hope all get ****** up the ass by a horse.

[Sox Sweep Again]

The post isn't mute but it might be moot. That's unacceptable.

/Not un-exceptable.

Grammar Nazi overwith, I'd usually say "It's too early to say", but then again I had FAITH in Tito and Theo and not so much in the current duo.

Meh, I don't know.

I actually think they kinda suck this season.

[Cudahy]

There was a desperate attempt to explain the unexplainable last October.
The same is going on now. There's no evidence that any player isn't doing the very best he can.

[roidrage]

Cudahy, on 22 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

There was a desperate attempt to explain the unexplainable last October.
The same is going on now. There's no evidence that any player isn't doing the very best he can.

You are right, there isn't.

But this isn't just a week or two now. When you combine September 2011 and April 2012, you have a full quarter of a season with a record of 11-30. At this point, it is getting harder and harder to just shrug your shoulders and say "these things happen", or dismiss it as small sample size.

The pitching staff in particular has been putrid. Basically replacement level, if not worse, for a span of 41 games. Something is very wrong. While we are just throwing shit against the wall in some effort to explain it, as we will probably never really know how or why this is occurring, just sloughing it off as a random hiccup is hard to believe at this point.

[DWO]

I was made aware of the score as being 9-0 by a friend (I wasn't watching) and then when I got to the restaurant I was going to it was 9-8 and I got to watch the Yankees take the lead. The team with the passion, the heart, everything, on the field last night was wearing gray, not white. I wanted to punch Swisher in the face after his double, not because he's a Yankee, but because my team isn't exhibiting that kind of fire. I saw the players' faces, and Valentine's. This is a team without a rudder, without balls.

I'm with GONM

Blow this shit up and start over.

[BigSlick]

DWO, on 22 April 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Blow this shit up and start over.

I want to see the following people on the 2013 Red Sox roster...

Ortiz (if he doesn't regress)
Pedroia
Ellsbury
Bard
Doubrant

Players that I can live with it if they are on the roster because they would be difficult to move:

Gonzalez
Crawford

Players that might get added to the first list based on the remainder of this season:
Lester
Buchholz
Saltalamacchia
Sweeney
Ross


F*ck everyone else.

[FishCake]

I'd add Tazawa to that list as well. I know it's still early, but he's been a bright spot in a dismal bullpen so far.

[The Ghost of Ned Martin]

BigSlick, on 22 April 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

I want to see the following people on the 2013 Red Sox roster...

Ortiz (if he doesn't regress)
Pedroia
Ellsbury
Bard
Doubrant

Players that I can live with it if they are on the roster because they would be difficult to move:

Gonzalez
Crawford

Players that might get added to the first list based on the remainder of this season:
Lester
Buchholz
Saltalamacchia
Sweeney
Ross


F*ck everyone else.

I'm good with that list

[Mike LansWho]

Ellsbury, I'm going to go ahead and say it; last season was a fluke. It was a great season but I have serious doubts that he'll ever be able to duplicate it. He also gets hurt too often. People will defend him because the major injuries have been by freak accidents (shoulder injury while trying to break up a double play, ribs cracked by Adrian Beltre), but in my opinion he's just prone to getting injured. I think he's completely overrated as a defensive outfielder. He has good range which often makes up for the fact that he takes questionable routes or has bad jumps. He gets to balls sometimes that he should be able to catch, but doesn't. His arm is awful. He'll be back with the team next season because he is still under team control, but I think it would be unwise to offer an extension. In fact, if the wheels fall off the bus completely this season, he would be the first one to consider trading if he comes back healthy.

Of the veterans I definitely like Pedroia and Ortiz. Of the new guys I like Aviles, Ross and Sweeney. I don't think any of these three are getting the credit they deserve, especially Aviles who has been thrust into the leadoff spot and has responded with a 1.008 OPS since.

Of the guys added recently but before this past offseason, Crawford needs more of a chance. I think he can eventually compete on a level that would make it easier to deal Ellsbury. Gonzalez, I love what he can do, but you'd like to see more fire from him. Maybe less of the "God's will" stuff and more of the "team, hop on my back" stuff. Saltalamacchia, 15-20 HR's would be nice, but not at the cost of a sub .300 OBP.

Pitchers, I agree that Doubront and Bard have been pretty good for 4th and 5th starters. I still think that Bard should have been moved back to the bullpen when Bailey got injured, but I also agree that he does have good starting upside. Lester and Buchholz, off to disappointing starts, but they'll turn it around when they face teams like the Royals, Twins and Mariners. Hopefully, they can turn it around and use it as momentum. Beckett, a guy that should be sporting a 3.00 ERA but doesn't. He comes off as kind of a douche, but that's usually a good mentality for a starter. He needs to stop worrying about the clubhouse leak (cough Kevin Youkilis) and start winning some games.

[VoteRiceIn]

Google News

ARZJake, on 21 April 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

....at the end of day it comes down to the 25 players in the dugout this season. If all 25 are not on the same page then I believe you have an issue.

Maybe it's just "lack of talent". I don't think so. There are some talented players on the field.

The Sox rank 10th in MLB in runs scored (through 4/22), 4th in team batting avg., 6th in OBP, 4th in slug %...you get the idea.
In regards to pitching, they rank 30th in ERA (6.68), almost a run and a half higher than 29th ranked team, last in avg against, teams are batting .297 against them, last in WHIP (1.60) and so on.
The splits between starters in relievers are noteworthy also (though they suck across the board), as RS relievers have a combined ERA of 8.44

My point is that there is a significant divide between the offense and pitching right now. Calling out fielders and lumping them in with the entire team (i.e. the pitching staff) doesn't seem fair at this point. Yes, they all wear the same uniforms and they win & lose as a team but the simple fact of the matter is that our pitching and particularly that of our bullpen simply SUCKS. There’s honestly not an offense in MLB that can overcome a pitching staff carrying an ERA of 6.68 (total) and 8.44 (bullpen). Asking the RS offense to carry this team right now is like asking Tom Brady to put up 60 points each week.

Edit:
Google/news the words 'blown up' and the first story to appear is related to the RS bullpen, ahead of news on oil lines & terrorist.
OCJ would certainly label this 'fear mongering' by a NY based media giant but what the hell does he know. You should be afraid, this pitching staff as presently constructed gawd awful and career years by Crawford, Ellsbury, Salty and Byrd isn't going to change that.

This post has been edited by VoteRiceIn: 23 April 2012 - 12:51 PM

[BigSlick]

Mike LansWho, on 23 April 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Ellsbury, I'm going to go ahead and say it; last season was a fluke. It was a great season but I have serious doubts that he'll ever be able to duplicate it. He also gets hurt too often. People will defend him because the major injuries have been by freak accidents (shoulder injury while trying to break up a double play, ribs cracked by Adrian Beltre), but in my opinion he's just prone to getting injured. I think he's completely overrated as a defensive outfielder. He has good range which often makes up for the fact that he takes questionable routes or has bad jumps. He gets to balls sometimes that he should be able to catch, but doesn't. His arm is awful. He'll be back with the team next season because he is still under team control, but I think it would be unwise to offer an extension. In fact, if the wheels fall off the bus completely this season, he would be the first one to consider trading if he comes back healthy.

I am as down on this team as anyone, but to be down on Ellsbury is completely unfair. In 2010 he had an injury that was misdiagnosed by the Sox and he might have been healthy sooner had he not been rushed back because of the misdiagnosis. This year’s injury was completely legitimate as well. I wouldn't call someone injury prone unless they are constantly pulling hamstrings or something similar.

If you want to knock him for the route he takes on some balls I wouldn’t disagree, but his speed makes up for it more often than not.

If the 2011 Red Sox make the playoffs he is the AL MVP after having a breakout year at the age of 27, which is the time when most players start the best stretch of their careers. There is no reason to think that he won’t be able to duplicate it. He should be the cornerstone that the team is built around, not one of the pieces that needs to go.

[Mike LansWho]

I just think that for the money Ellsbury will be seeking in free agency, the Red Sox will be better off trading him to retool the farm system. I can see him getting a $200M deal and then missing significant time when he collides with the wall.

[The Ghost of Ned Martin]

Mike LansWho, on 23 April 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

I just think that for the money Ellsbury will be seeking in free agency, the Red Sox will be better off trading him to retool the farm system. I can see him getting a $200M deal and then missing significant time when he collides with the wall.

I agree there is reason to be concerned that last year was a fluke for Ellsbury. On the other hand, if he doesn't have another season in which his production at least approaches his 2011 numbers, he won't get a $200M contract form anyone...well with the possible exception of Theo Epstein.

[rominer]

VoteRiceIn, on 23 April 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

My point is that there is a significant divide between the offense in pitching right now. Calling out fielders and lumping them in with the entire team doesn't seem fair at this point.

I'm not so sure.

The offense has put up 4 or more runs 6 times this year. The team is 4-2 in those games. The offense has put up 3 or fewer runs 8 times. The team is 0-8 in those games. On the flip side, the pitching, as awful as it has been, has also had 5 games in which it has allowed 3 or fewer runs. The team is just 2-3 in those games...because the offense isn't showing up.

Or to put it another way: League average right now is 4.5 runs per game. The offense has had 5 games this year better than league average. The pitching has had 6 games better than league average.

The pitching looks "worse" because they've had two epic meltdowns – blowing two saves in one game in Detroit, and blowing a 9 run lead against the Yankees – and two all-around disasters (18-3 loss to Texas, 10-0 loss in Detroit). But the offense has been terrible on a regular basis.

[ARZJake]

The short trade list...

Beckett Get value while the numbers are not to bad

Youkilis Club option for 13 Middlebrooks I say no more

Bucholz Fragile

Ortiz

AGone Only if the deal is to sweet Call Miami and LA with all that coin

Much like Epstein once said, SCOUTING DRAFTING and DEVELOPMENT machine...

[Mike LansWho]

The Ghost of Ned Martin, on 23 April 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

I agree there is reason to be concerned that last year was a fluke for Ellsbury. On the other hand, if he doesn't have another season in which his production at least approaches his 2011 numbers, he won't get a $200M contract form anyone...well with the possible exception of Theo Epstein.

This is true. That's why you hope he comes back healthy this season and can do something. Then trade him while the value is still high.

[Mike LansWho]

ARZJake, on 24 April 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

The short trade list...

Beckett Get value while the numbers are not to bad

Youkilis Club option for 13 Middlebrooks I say no more

Bucholz Fragile

Ortiz

AGone Only if the deal is to sweet Call Miami and LA with all that coin

With the exception of Buchholz, all of these guys would be difficult to move without eating salary. Not a huge deal for Ortiz and Youkilis since they're short money. Beckett has 2 more years beyond this year and Gonzalez is locked in through 2018. I'd still put Ellsbury at the top of the trade list just for the value.

[ARZJake]

Somebody has to go..
Even if it means eating money which this current ownership group is used to.



I forgot to mention, Cherington needs to grow a set of B@lls!
Cherington is a former DDuquette disciple, I hope the apple has fallen far from the tree.

[Mike LansWho]

ARZJake, on 24 April 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

AGone Only if the deal is to sweet Call Miami

Actually, that's the only scenario I could see working. It won't happen, but Miami would probably be willing to eat that contract.