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In or Out


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Poll: In or Out (17 member(s) have cast votes)

Who would YOU vote for? (multiple votes allowed)

  1. Bonds (7 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. Sosa (1 votes [3.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.57%

  3. Clemens (7 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  4. Piazza (8 votes [28.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  5. None of the above (5 votes [17.86%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.86%

Who will get in? (multiple votes allowed)

  1. Bonds (5 votes [19.23%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.23%

  2. Sosa (1 votes [3.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.85%

  3. Clemens (5 votes [19.23%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.23%

  4. Piazza (5 votes [19.23%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.23%

  5. None of the above (10 votes [38.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.46%

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#81 ghostoffoxx

ghostoffoxx

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:07 PM

He was more dominant (by ERA+) for the 6 years starting with '86 than Koufax was in the 6 years that got him into the Hall of Fame.

Maybe that's an argument against Koufax rather than an argument in favor of Clemens. But I don't think he was headed to the Hall of Very Good. Unless it was just to taunt Jack Morris (who, even for that one, would probably only be standing outside banging on the door asking to be let in) en route to the HOF.

I was actually thinking about Koufax when I wrote that. I'm not a huge fan of Koufax in The Hall, but I get it. I think that there is a perception factor as well. Koufax goes out at a high point in his career and people wonder "What could have been" (while completely ignoring the arthritis factor). I think without steroids fat Clemens turns into Pizza the Hut and some voters see him as a type of flash in the pan and others would make the Koufax connection. I can see both sides of it...

#82 rominer

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:34 PM

I was actually thinking about Koufax when I wrote that. I'm not a huge fan of Koufax in The Hall, but I get it. I think that there is a perception factor as well. Koufax goes out at a high point in his career and people wonder "What could have been" (while completely ignoring the arthritis factor). I think without steroids fat Clemens turns into Pizza the Hut and some voters see him as a type of flash in the pan and others would make the Koufax connection. I can see both sides of it...


There's a lot of ballwashing going on in this article, but I wonder if it's true (never followed the case closely enough) that the evidence suggests that Clemens started juicing in 1998.

If so, then his first year in Toronto -- 21-7 while leading the league in ERA (2.05), complete games (9), shutouts (3), innings (264), Ks (career-best 292), and WHIP (1.030) and the 15th best single-season ERA+ (222) of all time -- was, according to the evidence, a clean year.

If so, then obviously the numbers would be expected decline (which they did anyway but with a definite spike in performance in his early 40s), the career wouldn't have been as long, the counting stats not quite as good...but he was still pretty good. I bet he hangs around long enough to at least be top 5 in Ks and within view of 300 wins (he was at 213 through that first season in Toronto). And he might never win another Cy Young, but his 4 to that point would put him in a tie (with Maddux and Carlton) for 2nd all time.

He could balloon into David Wells, post-David Wells eating an entire Cecil Fielder, but I think he still would have ended up a Hall of Famer. Not in the "best pitcher of all time" conversation, but in the Hall of Fame.

Edited by rominer, 11 January 2013 - 04:35 PM.





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