[BigSlick]

VoteRiceIn, on 28 September 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

The fault would lie w/ Bruce Chen

That's old news. You made me think it was official.

[Sox Sweep Again]

So we didn't make the postseason and after all that finished third in the AL East (I am still laughing strangely about that, isn't that funny-strange?)

Why did this happen?

[The Ghost of Ned Martin]

Worse of all, there will not be another Bruce Chen era in Boston.

And we are all the poorer for it.

[JMDurron]

The worst thing about how this season played out and ended is that, because it came down to such a small margin of defeat, literally every single player and every single play that led to any loss over the course of the entire season is at fault. Honestly, every game lost by Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Matsuzaka, Wakefield, Weiland, Doubront, Albers, Bard, Papelbon, etc.. cost us a playoff berth. Every error that led to a loss cost us the season. Every player thrown out at home cost us the playoffs. Every "bases loaded 1 out double play" cost us the season. Every team that failed to convert an opportunity against the Rays cost us the season. Every game we lost to Baltimore, or Kansas City, or Oakland, cost us the season. That sucks, a lot.

[The Ghost of Ned Martin]

JMDurron, on 29 September 2011 - 07:56 AM, said:

The worst thing about how this season played out and ended is that, because it came down to such a small margin of defeat, literally every single player and every single play that led to any loss over the course of the entire season is at fault. Honestly, every game lost by Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Matsuzaka, Wakefield, Weiland, Doubront, Albers, Bard, Papelbon, etc.. cost us a playoff berth. Every error that led to a loss cost us the season. Every player thrown out at home cost us the playoffs. Every "bases loaded 1 out double play" cost us the season. Every team that failed to convert an opportunity against the Rays cost us the season. Every game we lost to Baltimore, or Kansas City, or Oakland, cost us the season. That sucks, a lot.

Which, ultimately, will be what gets Tito fired. One thing I think we can all agree on is that this team did not come out of Spring Training prepared. Maybe it was a lax approach by the coaches in ST. Maybe it was that some players were complacent (because, you know, this WAS supposed to be the best team EVAH) and didn't work hard enough in the Spring. Maybe God told Adrian Gonzalez during the offseason about his plans for the team this season and he told all of his teammates. Or perhaps there were looking ahead to next year which, due to the world ending on 12/21/2012, will be the final season ever.

The fact is that under Tito's guidance, the team played like the worst team in the league during the months of April and September. I happen to think he is a pretty good manager and is a good fit for this city but even I have to admit that what happened is indicative of a serious leadership void.

And that falls on the manager.

[JMDurron]

The Ghost of Ned Martin, on 29 September 2011 - 09:13 AM, said:

Which, ultimately, will be what gets Tito fired. One thing I think we can all agree on is that this team did not come out of Spring Training prepared. Maybe it was a lax approach by the coaches in ST. Maybe it was that some players were complacent (because, you know, this WAS supposed to be the best team EVAH) and didn't work hard enough in the Spring. Maybe God told Adrian Gonzalez during the offseason about his plans for the team this season and he told all of his teammates. Or perhaps there were looking ahead to next year which, due to the world ending on 12/21/2012, will be the final season ever.

The fact is that under Tito's guidance, the team played like the worst team in the league during the months of April and September. I happen to think he is a pretty good manager and is a good fit for this city but even I have to admit that what happened is indicative of a serious leadership void.

And that falls on the manager.

The strength and conditioning coaches and pitching coach are where I would look first. The possible lack of physical preparation and staying power to start and end the year could point to a systemic conditioning problem, and Bard's delivery, at the very least, got progressively more off-kilter as the year went along on Curt Young's watch. I don't think this organization is reactionary enough to just fire Francona over this if there are other potential problem areas that could be more effectively remedied.

[The Ghost of Ned Martin]

JMDurron, on 29 September 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

The strength and conditioning coaches and pitching coach are where I would look first. The possible lack of physical preparation and staying power to start and end the year could point to a systemic conditioning problem, and Bard's delivery, at the very least, got progressively more off-kilter as the year went along on Curt Young's watch. I don't think this organization is reactionary enough to just fire Francona over this if there are other potential problem areas that could be more effectively remedied.

I'm sure Young will be fired and perhaps strength and conditioning staff as well. I just think these types of collapses require action much bolder than what you suggest. Again, I like Tito but ownership will not allow him to remain at the helm because they will want the fans to see the depth of ownership's dissatisfaction with how things unfolded.

I think this will be a very interesting and eventful off season.

[PhilA67]

I am to blame. During the Stanley Cup finals, I wanted the Cup so bad that I uttered a prayer to the sports gods that I would trade a world series and two superbowls for the Stanley Cup against Vancouver...

[JMDurron]

PhilA67, on 29 September 2011 - 11:51 AM, said:

I am to blame. During the Stanley Cup finals, I wanted the Cup so bad that I uttered a prayer to the sports gods that I would trade a world series and two superbowls for the Stanley Cup against Vancouver...

I am going to ****ing kill you hockey people.

[BigSlick]

I'd be absolutely shocked if Francona gets fired. There's nothing a manager can do if his rotation gives him a combined ERA over 7 in the final month of the season.

[FishCake]

BigSlick, on 29 September 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

I'd be absolutely shocked if Francona gets fired. There's nothing a manager can do if his rotation gives him a combined ERA over 7 in the final month of the season.

This poll needs an All the Above/I like Applesauce option.

[JMDurron]

BigSlick, on 29 September 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

I'd be absolutely shocked if Francona gets fired. There's nothing a manager can do if his rotation gives him a combined ERA over 7 in the final month of the season.

If Francona gets fired, I think that will be a sign that there has been a reactionary power shift away from baseball ops (Theo) towards marketing/PR (Lucchino) for the sake of damage control, which would indicate an absolute disaster for the franchise going forward, IMO. Francona didn't magically turn into a different manager than he was in 2004, 2007, 2008, or 2010 (that record with those injuries was actually pretty impressive), I think the players just simply failed to perform.

The only thing I hold Francona partly responsible for in this disaster is the apparent inability to get guys to loosen up a bit when they played so tight down the stretch. Of course, some of that might actually be due to the relative lack of idiots left on the team (no Manny, Pedro, Millar, Damon, etc.) and the increased presence of more straight-laced, OCD type high-strung guys (Pedroia, Youk, Lester, Beckett, Varitek, apparently Crawford) who might actually work themselves into A-Rod type "trying too hard" slumps. I just can't separate out the manager's influence from the players' personalities, and frankly I'm just making half-assed guesses as to the personalities of those players anyway.

[rominer]

The following people should get fired, or at least reassigned:

Tim Bogar
Every umpire involved in a Red Sox game in the past month
Probably Curt Young

I don't think Francona is on that list.

The slow start was the result, I think, an organizational miscalculation: This team was going to be good, so the focus was on the 25th man, and on getting an extended look at minor leaguers who weren't going to be breaking camp with the team. Those things are important – and especially important for a good team like the Red Sox used to be. But it seems (maybe this is all just rationalization, I don't know) that they took it to an extreme.

The poor finish was a combination of things: Injuries, terrible luck, horrific umpiring, bad pitching, costly errors, a number of key players (Ortiz, Pedroia) having terrible months at the plate. Maybe Francona needed to throw a water cooler, or shake up the lineup, or something. But there were just too many things out of his control to blame him. Josh Reddick cost the Sox a game by misjudging a routine fly ball. Who was supposed to be in right field then? Josh Beckett looks good for 6 innings against the Orioles a week ago, with a low pitch count, on a day when the bullpen needed a break. Then falls apart in the 7th and 8th. Who was supposed to be pitching then? Who was supposed to be pitching during [pick your Daniel Bard meltdown]?

I don't think ownership has to show off the depth of its dissatisfaction. It was unacceptable, and everybody knows it. The ownership has to show off that they have a plan to address it. Leave the irrational "Goddammit, I'm pissed, and everyone has to pay" shit to idiots like me who spent part of my night last night reading up on "proper punching technique."

[OilCan Jolmy]

BigSlick, on 29 September 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

I'd be absolutely shocked if Francona gets fired. There's nothing a manager can do if his rotation gives him a combined ERA over 7 in the final month of the season.

I disagree completely. Read the reports now that pitchers not pitching that day were routinely drinking alcohol in the clubhouse during games.

If Tito wasn't responsible for this trainwreck, who was? It was his job to have this team ready to play to the best of their abilities, and he clearly failed in that job. Perhaps these spoiled babies are uncoachable, but Tito utterly failed at his one job all season.

[Scruffy]

PhilA67, on 29 September 2011 - 11:51 AM, said:

I am to blame. During the Stanley Cup finals, I wanted the Cup so bad that I uttered a prayer to the sports gods that I would trade a world series and two superbowls for the Stanley Cup against Vancouver...

It's quite alright with me my friend. That Stanley Cup victory was f*cking AWESOME.