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Tito out - it's official
It's Valentine's Day...

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Kid T 

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:35 AM

Mutual parting of the ways according to this Fox Sports report


A mistake in my opinion. Francona has been masterful in managing the massive egos on this team (and yes, I'm looking at you Manny). He's also had to deal with quite a bit of second-guessing from the media and fans (and I'm sure the ownership and front office too, behind the scene). The real question is, who would be brought in that could do better? I read something in one of the rumor mills about Bobby Valentine being a possibility, but I don't know if he'll embrace the money ball philosophy. If I recall, he tends to work best with young teams and less so with veterans given his ego.

edit: I don't think there are any realistic in-house options. If this were a year ago, I could see John Farrell, being a logical successor.

This post has been edited by Kid T: 30 September 2011 - 12:43 AM

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ghostoffoxx 

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:38 AM

View PostKid T, on 30 September 2011 - 12:35 AM, said:

Mutual parting of the ways according to this Fox Sports report

I just heard about that. Tito on occasion will make some really bizarre decisions during a game, but I have always thought he was a really good fit for the team and the city. I may be in the minority, but I really hope this isn't true.
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acr 

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:45 AM

Rosenthal saying it's imminent, Edes confirming that it's not done, but leaning that way. Apparently a mutual decision, the brass was upset about the collapse, and Tito was just burned out.

Shit, who the hell out there can manage a clubhouse of millionaire egos in a pressure cooker like Boston like Terry could? I don't think he was a good tactical manager, but that makes a very marginal difference in the end. It's keeping those guys happy and managing morale that is so important in a town like this. I don't think this is fair, but we've got to deal with it.

So who's out there that can realistically step into this situation? Joe Torre is probably the only guy I'd like but he's 71 years old and not coming back. Ozzie Guillen could probably have handled the market, but he's already committed to Florida. They just better not get a baseball retard like Mike Scioscia or Joe Maddon, I will die.

We could go with a veteran of a big money club, like a Mike Hargrove type, or go with a less heralded younger guy who has studied under a Torre or Cox. Don Mattingly would be perfect if he weren't so strongly tied to his Yankee past...you know he'd be looking to get out of the McCourt disaster area too. They could look in-house, Demarlo Hale seems to be liked by a lot of people in baseball and was likely to get a managing job anyway, or they could promote Ron Johnson or someone from the minor league system. What I sort of expect is that they'll get some random bench coach from a team nobody has paid attention to because of his adherence to statistics and generally positive demeanor.

Or Curt Schlling?
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:52 AM

View Postghostoffoxx, on 30 September 2011 - 12:38 AM, said:

I just heard about that. Tito on occasion will make some really bizarre decisions during a game, but I have always thought he was a really good fit for the team and the city. I may be in the minority, but I really hope this isn't true.


I don't think you're in the minority at all. As I said in another thread, What's the manager supposed to do when his starting rotation gives him a month with an ERA over 7?

Someone noted (Fishcake?) that Tito bolted out of the press conference today. I assumed it was because he was simply too upset from the way the season ended. Now I fear it's that he knew he was gone.

This team does not win the World Series in 2004 without Tito, and may not have won in 2007 if that team had to deal with the weight of 89 years on their backs.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:08 AM

View PostBigSlick, on 30 September 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

I don't think you're in the minority at all. As I said in another thread, What's the manager supposed to do when his starting rotation gives him a month with an ERA over 7?

Someone noted (Fishcake?) that Tito bolted out of the press conference today. I assumed it was because he was simply too upset from the way the season ended. Now I fear it's that he knew he was gone.

This team does not win the World Series in 2004 without Tito, and may not have won in 2007 if that team had to deal with the weight of 89 years on their backs.

Maybe this isn't the front office's decision. I wonder if Tito has had enough. I think that as fans we don't necessarily see the role of manager (or player) as a 'job' because the day to day grind isn't a very visible component. We only see the 3 hours on the field and fail to recognize the time and effort that goes into the role off the field. It's weird because we talk of Belichick and his relentless planning and long hours, yet we seem to ignore the real beating that a 162 game season can have on a person. You couple that with the brutal and intense Boston media and I wonder why the hell anyone would take a manager's position in Boston. Another component is dealing with some very large personalities (read egos). Boston has the ability to sign big name players who come with their own set of expectations and come with the "Do you know who I am attitude?" ****, Lackey would mutter and glare at Tito when he would come to the mound even when Lackey was delivering a giant shit sandwich on a silver platter. To paraphrase a funny man, that would make me want to choke a bitch.

If the move comes, I really think it's because Tito needs a change of scenery and could use some breathing room and frankly, I wouldn't blame him. He has a couple of rings and the Boston environment is enough to suffocate you.

No matter where/when he goes, that man should never have to buy a drink in Boston ever again.
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acr 

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:11 AM

You beat me to the punch while I was typing up a long winded thread starter, let's just delete that and I'll paste my thoughts here

Shit, who the hell out there can manage a clubhouse of millionaire egos in a pressure cooker like Boston like Terry could? I don't think he was a good tactical manager, but that makes a very marginal difference in the end. It's keeping those guys happy and managing morale that is so important in a town like this. I don't think this is fair, but we've got to deal with it.

So who's out there that can realistically step into this situation? Joe Torre is probably the only guy I'd like but he's 71 years old and not coming back. Ozzie Guillen could probably have handled the market, but he's already committed to Florida. They just better not get a baseball retard like Mike Scioscia or Joe Maddon, I will die.

We could go with a veteran of a big money club, like a Mike Hargrove type, or go with a less heralded younger guy who has studied under a Torre or Cox. Don Mattingly would be perfect if he weren't so strongly tied to his Yankee past(though the bitterness of the Yanks choosing Girardi over him could pull him to us). If the new Dodger owners, whoever they be decide to start fresh, it could open the door for Donnie Baseball. They could look in-house, Demarlo Hale seems to be liked by a lot of people in baseball and was likely to get a managing job anyway, or they could promote Ron Johnson or someone from the minor league system. What I sort of expect is that they'll get some random bench coach from a team nobody has paid attention to because of his adherence to statistics and generally positive demeanor.

Or Curt Schlling?
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:14 AM

View Postghostoffoxx, on 30 September 2011 - 01:08 AM, said:

Maybe this isn't the front office's decision. I wonder if Tito has had enough. I think that as fans we don't necessarily see the role of manager (or player) as a 'job' because the day to day grind isn't a very visible component. We only see the 3 hours on the field and fail to recognize the time and effort that goes into the role off the field. It's weird because we talk of Belichick and his relentless planning and long hours, yet we seem to ignore the real beating that a 162 game season can have on a person. You couple that with the brutal and intense Boston media and I wonder why the hell anyone would take a manager's position in Boston. Another component is dealing with some very large personalities (read egos). Boston has the ability to sign big name players who come with their own set of expectations and come with the "Do you know who I am attitude?" ****, Lackey would mutter and glare at Tito when he would come to the mound even when Lackey was delivering a giant shit sandwich on a silver platter. To paraphrase a funny man, that would make me want to choke a bitch.


Some interesting comments by Gammons on WEEI

Quote

First, the Sox must address manager Terry Francona who has two options years on his contract that the club needs to exercise in the 10 days following the end of the season. "I think what they have to do immediately is clear up whether or not Tito's option is going to be picked up," Gammons said. "I think everybody needs to know and I think that will entirely be ownership. If it was Theo [Epstein], he'd do it tomorrow."

Ultimately, Gammons believes that Francona will return next season.



Quote

If the move comes, I really think it's because Tito needs a change of scenery and could use some breathing room and frankly, I wouldn't blame him. He has a couple of rings and the Boston environment is enough to suffocate you.

No matter where/when he goes, that man should never have to buy a drink in Boston ever again.

I agree with a caveat. If he ever coaches the Yankees, I'd be thankful - but I don't think I'd pick up his bar tab.
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rominer 

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:37 AM

Assuming that Rosentwat has his story right, and isn't just drawing conclusions based on outsider information…

If Francona is burned out, then he should leave for his own mental/physical health – and he should leave for the good of the team.

If he's leaving because he's getting fired without getting fired in so many words, then I have a problem with that. I have a problem with it because I don't like the idea of Epstein sitting up there at the podium saying one thing while the team is doing another (this isn't the same as misdirection in the trade/free agent market). I have a problem with it because I don't think he's the right guy to blame. I have a problem with it because I'm unimaginative enough to not be able to think of a single other person out there who is available and right for the job of winning the World Series with this team in 2012.

And I don't like it because it sends the absolute wrong message to these players. They did not perform. There may have been organizational shortcomings, but this team had too much talent to fold like this. Francona shouldn't have had to push all the right buttons. Epstein shouldn't have had to acquire 14 MLB caliber starting pitchers to have enough depth to get through the year. The guys on the field for the past week damn well should have been good enough to win more than 1 game out of 6 against a Baltimore team that still sucks at baseball even if we can respect the effort the Orioles put into finishing out the season the right way. In spite of any and every other bad move, bad call, bad scheduling, or bad luck, it's 100% on the players. Giving them any reason to believe otherwise is to the detriment of the team.
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ghostoffoxx 

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:40 AM

View PostKid T, on 30 September 2011 - 01:14 AM, said:

I agree with a caveat. If he ever coaches the Yankees, I'd be thankful - but I don't think I'd pick up his bar tab.

I actually wrote a similar disclaimer, but I think the likelihood of that actually happening to be near zero; so, I deleted it. However if it happened, I concur 100%

Edit: I also heartly concur with rominer's sentiments - particularly on how firing Tito gives the players a free pass and we all know damn well that they don't deserve a shred of leeway in that respect.

This post has been edited by ghostoffoxx: 30 September 2011 - 01:43 AM

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rominer 

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:41 AM

Anybody who ever does anything for the Yankees other than crash the team plane into the stadium after leaving the Red Sox gets free nothing. That's a given.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 02:21 AM

View Postrominer, on 30 September 2011 - 01:37 AM, said:

Assuming that Rosentwat has his story right, and isn't just drawing conclusions based on outsider information…

If Francona is burned out, then he should leave for his own mental/physical health – and he should leave for the good of the team.

If he's leaving because he's getting fired without getting fired in so many words, then I have a problem with that. I have a problem with it because I don't like the idea of Epstein sitting up there at the podium saying one thing while the team is doing another (this isn't the same as misdirection in the trade/free agent market). I have a problem with it because I don't think he's the right guy to blame. I have a problem with it because I'm unimaginative enough to not be able to think of a single other person out there who is available and right for the job of winning the World Series with this team in 2012.

And I don't like it because it sends the absolute wrong message to these players. They did not perform. There may have been organizational shortcomings, but this team had too much talent to fold like this. Francona shouldn't have had to push all the right buttons. Epstein shouldn't have had to acquire 14 MLB caliber starting pitchers to have enough depth to get through the year. The guys on the field for the past week damn well should have been good enough to win more than 1 game out of 6 against a Baltimore team that still sucks at baseball even if we can respect the effort the Orioles put into finishing out the season the right way. In spite of any and every other bad move, bad call, bad scheduling, or bad luck, it's 100% on the players. Giving them any reason to believe otherwise is to the detriment of the team.


I sort of feel this way, but the manager needed to insure a feeling of urgency and maybe Francona is too laid back.

2-10 start, 7-19 finish.

To me, that's management.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:11 AM

Reports that it is Francona that wants out, via Daryl Van Schouwen at the Chicago Sun-Times:

Quote

Francona has had enough of his eroding Boston experience, a ­major-league source said, and will ask the club not to exercise the option on his contract.

“He has had his fill of the whole thing,’’ the source told the Sun-Times.


Linkage

Edit: Also from the Sun-Times, the Cubs are expected to try to hire Theo (if they can):

Quote

If there is a holy grail of GM candidates with successful track records for the Ricketts ownership, it appears to be Epstein. Ricketts’ admiration for Epstein is no secret.

With Epstein potentially available for an interview — not to mention his future with Boston questioned in the aftermath of the biggest September collapse in baseball history — the Cubs are expected to make a run at him.


Linkey-dink

This post has been edited by roidrage: 30 September 2011 - 08:19 AM

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 09:02 AM

View Postghostoffoxx, on 30 September 2011 - 01:40 AM, said:

I actually wrote a similar disclaimer, but I think the likelihood of that actually happening to be near zero; so, I deleted it. However if it happened, I concur 100%

Edit: I also heartly concur with rominer's sentiments - particularly on how firing Tito gives the players a free pass and we all know damn well that they don't deserve a shred of leeway in that respect.


I agree with rominer as well. If Tito is leaving of his own accord, I can understand that. Eight years in Boston dealing with the bull that comes along with that coupled with medical issues and a son deployed in the military...sheesh the guy deserves a break. But if he was let go or "pressured" to leave then that leaves too many people off the hook, including the players.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 09:06 AM

WBZ radio is confirming that the Sox will not pick up Francona's option.

And now they are saying that it "may" be confirmed... Stay tuned.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 10:12 AM

If Tito wants to come back (unknown), and Theo wants him back (known), but "the brass" does not pick up his option (unknown), then we are absolutely, positively screwed. The only way that Francona not being the manager of the 2012 Boston Red Sox could be a good thing is if he is simply burned out or has medical issues. That could also be the type of "PR overruling baseball Ops" thing that could drive Theo out to Chicago. I feel like we're on the precipice of a far more significant disaster than the performance of the September 2011 Red Sox here.

One month of baseball, no matter how poorly timed or painful, is not as significant as the overall management direction of the franchise. I am now really, really worried about that direction. I do not want to look back at 2003-2011 as a 1903-1918 period, where the team was briefly managed well before a string of incompetents and quacks started marching through.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 10:33 AM

Here is my problem, I am sick of rooting for guys like John Lackey and Carl Crawford or even Jonathon Papelbon. I shouldn't have to do that anymore.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:02 AM

View Postcoloradojack, on 30 September 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

Here is my problem, I am sick of rooting for guys like John Lackey and Carl Crawford or even Jonathon Papelbon. I shouldn't have to do that anymore.


Trust me, you have more problems than that.


I agree, Lackey appears to be an asshole and it's not just because he sucks. I don't get that feeling from Crawford though. To me he seems like a decent guy who had a horrible year. I don't think a guy who is a jerk could have written This Blog two weeks ago, that concluded with...

Quote

I want to end the diary saying something to the fans of Boston. I just want to say I'm sorry for the year I've had. You guys have been really supportive and I appreciate that. Hopefully when we get into these playoffs, I can be the real Carl Crawford that I know I am. We'll see.


With that said, I firmly believe that if ownership has decided that either Theo or Tito needs to go, that it should be Theo. It doesn't appear as if that will be the case though.
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acr 

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:30 AM

It sounds like the parting of ways was Henry's doing, which is one more tension between ownership and baseball ops which could drive Theo to Chicago. This is just crap.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:34 AM

During the press conference yesterday, Theo certainly gave the appearance of a guy whose intention is to stay. Tito gave every appearance that he had one foot out the door. That's my guess for now.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:34 AM

View Postacr, on 30 September 2011 - 11:30 AM, said:

It sounds like the parting of ways was Henry's doing, which is one more tension between ownership and baseball ops which could drive Theo to Chicago. This is just crap.


I agree. If they're both gone it could cause drastic and unnecessary changes on the field. This team needs to be tweaked, not completely overhauled.
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